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Post by Emmie on Jun 20, 2008 22:07:05 GMT -5
I know the Buffyverse is rife with daddy issues, but really I don't think any of the slayers parents are going to be demonized, evilized or Big Bad-ized.
Twilight being Buffy or Faith's dad would be coming out of left field in an extreme way. It's way too "Buffy this is your life", cue corny music and pull the curtain. Or cue dire, trumpet music and smoky Star Wars-esque "Buffy I am your father". If Twilight were revealed as either of these Dad's, the first few panels would be full of having to remind us why we should care. They're already not looking good as an absentee father and a drunk criminal.
Besides, these daddy issues have made no real appearance in season 8 at all. Correct me if I'm just not remembering them, but there's no textual evidence for it.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 20, 2008 22:26:40 GMT -5
The daddy issues have made appearances. The dads have been mostly absent (Hank Summers) to non-existent (Faith's dad). I agree that it would be coming from the 4th dimension if Twilight was revealed to be either of them, and my opinion is that there's no way to make us care.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 22, 2008 5:53:27 GMT -5
In response to the most recent theory that Twilight could be the Immortal, I'm re-posting my thoughts in this thread.
Of all the suspects, at least the Immortal has specific relevance to season 8. (god does he have a name, it's annoying having to type the "the" title)
Looking at what we know of Twilight, again I say that the best way to describe him is as a "manipulator" maneuvering his pawns on his chessboard. As Twilight's manipulations have all been successful so far as we know, who has the potential and history to be such an adroit manipulator without fail?
All the other popular contenders stretch the imagination:
1. Riley hasn't been seen since As You Were in the middle of season 6. His reappearance requires a lot of backstory to understand his motivation for assuming the Twilight mantle. The possibility of his wife, Sam, becoming a Slayer and dying has been suggested as a reason for him to want magic and the slayer line to end. Plus his connection to the military and his fitting the aesthetics of what we know Twilight to look like. Judgment as a manipulator: better at taking/giving orders straightforwardly than manipulating, unless the subversive Machiaviellian reading of As You Were is to be taken into account. But still no real previous evidence of him resorting to manipulating others in a complex manner.
2. Giles is mostly a target because of his current alienation from Buffy and his seeming closeness to Faith. He's seen as a possible contender for the "closest, most unexpected" betrayal, but really it's hard to justify Giles throwing aside his conscience and so cavalierly (and dangerously, Gigi could've killed Buffy!) endangering his slayer. Plus of all the other potential Twilights, Giles is the most aware of the good that can be found in magic. I don't see Giles wanting to end magic, but rather to use magic responsibly. He sees it as powerful and meant to be utilized with respect. Judgment as a manipulator: has the intellect and skill to manipulate, but is hindered by his personal ties and moral conscience. No evidence of him callously and detachedly manipulating those he loved like Buffy and the Scoobies. Whatever questionable behavior he enacts is done to protect the innocent and loved ones.
3. Ethan. As a potential favorite contender of mine in the past, I have trouble reconciling Ethan to any role other than the comedic 'villainous' relief. He's the Buffyverse example of an egotistical villain too incompetent to know how to achieve victory. This doesn't jive with Twilight's adroit manipulation of the military, the mole inside Slayer HQ and Buffy. My past theory that Ethan faked his own death seems a bit extreme to justify his being Twilight. Again, the emotional pay-off from Ethan being Twilight would only deeply affect Giles. And as a die-hard wizard, he should be against the end of magic, not trying to bring it forth. Judgment as a manipulator: successful at initially manipulating his targets and uninhibited by a conscience, but fails in the follow-through due to hubris and cowardice. No history of successfully manipulating the protagonists of the Buffyverse.
4. Future Xander. As time-travel is being introduced in Fray, the idea has been tossed around that a futuristic version of one of Buffy's friends has traveled back to convince Buffy of the error of her ways. We can already see Xander is heading down a dark path and his betrayal would absolutely be the "closest, the most unexpected" as he's always, always stood by Buffy. But the whole idea is very far-fetched and almost too heart-breaking to consider that Xander could become this detached being who plays people like pawns on a chessboard. Judgment as a manipulator: based on character, Xander is too honest, impatient and prone to rubbing one's mistakes in his/her face to successfully manipulate anyone. Long-term planning of the complexity and delicacy required for Twilight's actions doesn't match Xander's character or intellectual inclinations. If he wanted to protest Buffy's actions, he'd confront her face-on.
5. Caleb. He's a hack option imo, only offered because he knew the scythe bisection move Buffy tried to use on Twilight in A Beautiful Sunset. There's no emotional pay-off from bringing him back. He's best left dead and buried. But then I would have said the same thing about Warren, so who knows. Judgment as a manipulator: Very successful at manipulating those who see his authority as a spiritual leader. Take away this costume however and I don't see the US military taking him seriously. As an agent of the First, the final goal of ending magic doesn't jive with the First's interests.
The other popular theories were Harth, Angel & Spike. Setting up Angel or Spike as the villainous Twilight seems too deja vu, been there and done that. As for Harth, he seems very enamored of magic so I don't seem him wanting to end magic and banish his own kind from the world - unless he saw it as a necessary step to insure his own future timeline. These three seem too far-fetched as potential Twilights to be taken seriously.
And finally The Immortal. A charismatic, centuries old immortal being who inspires a sycophantic following, who may or may not be evil, thinks magic is "dirty", is dating the faux RomoBuffy and has interacted with Andrew personally (the best potential candidate for the mole imo). No one else fits Twilight as closely in their present incarnation as the Immortal - he's a leader, detached morally, powerful, connected to the Slayers, knowledgable and intelligent. What's more, the air of mystery surrounding the Immortal matches the mystery surrounding Twilight. Judgment as a manipulator: Very adept. The Girl in Question exemplifies the Immortals ability to make a mockery of Angel & Spike, who aren't immune to manipulation but are by no means stupid. This episode is a lesson for those aspiring to fine-tuned manipulation.
Wouldn't it be ironic that in the third page of the first issue of Season 8, the Immortal is retconned into a comic relief/cover story only to have him actually be the Big Bad of the season? Talk about underestimating someone.
As for the mask reveal signifying that we would recognize Twilight's face, the Immortal could simply be using this disguise because he would be easily recognized by Team Slayer. He's a part of their faux-Romo Buffy alias. Ding dong, we've got a double-agent in the house. They would easily recognize him, hence the need for a disguise. I've also considered the fact that his outfit/gear may convey power. The mask-reveal leads to the assumption that we know Twilight, but it's an insubstantiated assumption. Don't make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 23, 2008 1:56:55 GMT -5
Has Ben been discussed? I mean, he shared his body with a God, what says that smothering is sure to kill him?
If Glory is still in him, he'd want her gone. Perhaps he needs Buffy's help for that, and is trying to manipulate her into causing the end of magic, which it looks as if Buffy did in Fray. And even if Glory is gone, I'd bet he dislikes the supernatural anyway, since he never had a normal life.
Ben would make sense. Way more sense than Riley or Xander. Which probably means that it's not him.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 23, 2008 7:36:04 GMT -5
Ben was mortal; it was Glory's punishment to be imprisoned in a mortal body, to suffer as it does and to die when old age/disease/car crash/gun shot/ etc take its toll on the human body. In other words, Ben doesn't have access to Glory's powers, he's just a regular ol' human being... her invulnerability doesn't pass on to him, hence no super-strength/speed for him. Killing him kills her; that was the point of sticking her into a human body. So unless there's some serious ret-conning involved, Ben's done for, and Glory's poofed too.
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kimtaro
Ensouled Vampire
Everybody's Buttmonkey
Crime tastes funny[Mo0:10]
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Post by kimtaro on Jun 23, 2008 9:53:07 GMT -5
Has Ben been discussed? I mean, he shared his body with a God, what says that smothering is sure to kill him? If Glory is still in him, he'd want her gone. Perhaps he needs Buffy's help for that, and is trying to manipulate her into causing the end of magic, which it looks as if Buffy did in Fray. And even if Glory is gone, I'd bet he dislikes the supernatural anyway, since he never had a normal life. Ben would make sense. Way more sense than Riley or Xander. Which probably means that it's not him. on a side note, I'd like to just speculate that Buffy is not the one that ends magic. In Fray, it says that the last slayer to be CALLED did it...and technically, that is Faith
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 23, 2008 10:47:40 GMT -5
Ben was mortal; it was Glory's punishment to be imprisoned in a mortal body, to suffer as it does and to die when old age/disease/car crash/gun shot/ etc take its toll on the human body. In other words, Ben doesn't have access to Glory's powers, he's just a regular ol' human being... her invulnerability doesn't pass on to him, hence no super-strength/speed for him. Killing him kills her; that was the point of sticking her into a human body. So unless there's some serious ret-conning involved, Ben's done for, and Glory's poofed too. Hmm... That's what the scoobies figured out right? The Buffyverse's characters don't know all and sometimes get facts wrong. They could be wrong, it's not like they had endless reliable sources. And you know, dead isn't dead for eternity. We were sure that Warren died and lookie lookie. Although, that was a bad, unrealistic example that Joss will have to make up a good explanation for. What I mean is, it's not impossible, and a lot of Hey-isn't-he-dead people would be surprised.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 23, 2008 13:13:58 GMT -5
*shrug* While that may be true, I think it's kinda cheap to be doing the same thing over and over again. It just felt like the Ben/Glory storyline was done for. Warren, on the other hand, you could argue that he and Willow never really had any closure, with her flaying him and all, and then the hex that Amy put on her in The Killer in Me. Willow never had to face any physical manifestation of the repercussions for her actions. Not that I'm championing the return of Warren... could care less actually.
But, if I were to entertain the possibility, I'd still say no to Ben. At least based on his character from S5, he seemed to be kinda like Xander, serious and earnest (definitely smarter than Xander in terms of the books, with him being an intern an all).
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kimtaro
Ensouled Vampire
Everybody's Buttmonkey
Crime tastes funny[Mo0:10]
Posts: 1,087
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Post by kimtaro on Jun 23, 2008 13:31:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't think Ben is coming back...I actually think I recall Joss saying something at some point about not bringing back Glory/Ben...
Anyways, IMO, Warren is the best candidate (with regenerative skin qualities and Amy's magic making him super strong! also, he could have been watching Buffy and the gang the whole time after Amy brought him back, hence "I've seen that move, Slayer")
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Post by Emmie on Jun 23, 2008 14:15:32 GMT -5
I don't think Warren makes sense. Magic is the only thing that's keeping him alive (Amy's magic is his skin) so he would be against the end of magic, not trying to bring it to an end as Twilight.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 23, 2008 14:29:23 GMT -5
I don't think Warren makes sense. Magic is the only thing that's keeping him alive (Amy's magic is his skin) so he would be against the end of magic, not trying to bring it to an end as Twilight. Well, I guess if you're in the "he magically grew new skin between 8.04 and 8.11" camp, then you could probably argue that he doesn't need magic to keep him alive anymore. The big hole in the Warren theory, as far as I see it, is that he was stuck in the crater with Amy from "Chosen" until the army came and got them out in 8.01, so how did he manage to recruit a bunch of followers to his Twilight cause from down there? How were his boots flying over the church at the beginning of 8.01, when the army still hadn't dug him out yet? Unless he and Amy were out and about the whole time, and only returned to Sunnydale just in time to let the army capture them--in which case, what's the benefit in that? What advantage did Warren get by posing as a prisoner (and also Amy's sidekick) that he couldn't have gotten as Twilight, wearing the mask and being the boss?
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Post by wenxina on Jun 23, 2008 20:05:17 GMT -5
All good and valid points against Warren being Twilight.
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