Is it about the soul?

[balesthebloody]

In issue 2 Gunn goes on a rant about how he can still be the hero without a soul.
What do you guys think about it? Is it about the soul? Or is Gunn just full of hot air?

[SlayerLV]

I think it all depends on the vampire's attitude and if he or she wants to be a hero and do good things.

[Rachster]

yeah i think it depends on the vamp/person but it would be hard to be good if you dont have a soul a souls important so the person would have to really want to be good

[Whedon Fan]

Yes it is about the soul but how come Angelus can't control himself but Spike can. and in Angel season 2 Harmony can't control herself but in season 5 she can??

My guess is if Brian Lynch wants him to behave he will just make him like Harmony was in season 5...but he will betray them eventually becuase he does not have a soul. Spike didn't have a soul but had the chip to hold him back, if he never ahd the chip he would have tried to kill Buffy loads of times.

[mandikaye]

I think it depends on the writer's whims. This is one thing that has not been continuous in the shows. For Angel, getting his soul back completely changed him. For Spike, it didn't. He's essentially the same guy he was before the soul. There was a lot of character development for him before he got the soul that made him the not-complete-monster that he used to be, but that doesn't account for the vast differences between him and Angel. And, as Whedon Fan mentioned, look at Harmony. She didn't have a soul, but she was able to control herself because of Angel.

[lorneisaboltsfan]

I think it has a lot to do with what type of person they were before getting vamped. When Angel was a human, he was careless and really didn't care too much about anyone. Of course he eventually changed when he got his soul back, but that was after having to live with what he had done for so long. Spike as a human was a decent person that cared for his mother and was in love. When he was changed, a lot of that same attitute stuck around in his feelings for Drusilla and then Buffy. In the case of Harmony, not much changed with her losing her soul and becoming a vampire. She's still the same self centered girl she was in high school. Obviously when one gets vamped they lose their basic set of morals, but a shadow of their old self still exists.

[Whedon Fan]

lorneisaboltsfan said:

I think it has a lot to do with what type of person they were before getting vamped.

Nah it's been said that without a soul a vampire is just a demon, no human part of themselves are left only the monster. I'm still sticking wih the soul does count.

[balesthebloody]

I think it really depends on the person/vampire. I think that Spike is a prime example of this. True the chip did hold me at bay but he still had human emotions before he got the chip. The Judge stated that. I think that if you were a decent person in life the memories help the demon in you "feel". That is why I think that Gunn is acting the way he is. He kills and yet doesn't feel remorse, proving that he doesn't have a soul. Yet he still wants to do good, showing the human Gunn. I think as time goes on that discoveries will be made into the psychology of vampires and we will see that some part of the human still remains with the demon.

[barryshaft]

The show's really been all about the differences in the Vampire/Man when it comes to Angel and Spike... But with Gunn... I don't really think we have anything to really go on. Gunn says he's a hero but he hasn't exactly done anything slightly heroic since he's been vamped. In fact all he's done so far (that we've seen) is murder, kidnap and set explosives... not exactly heroic gestures. I think Gunn believes he's doing "right" but is essentially following his urges and trying to hurt those that were close to him before. There is one flaw in this however, the picture he took from W&H's offices... That's very curious and I can't wait to see what's up with that.

[xmadxscientistx]

Remember what Angel said in Dopplegangland? It wasn't much, just "Well, actually-" but it was the context that was meaningful. It had something to do with vampires sharing qualities with the people they'd been when they were alive...

[henzINNIT]

Seems to me that not only do some feelings transfer over, but also a feeling of unfinished buisness.

What I have settled on after several viewings of Buffy and Angel is that vampires are evil, but far from simple.
I think they take on aspects the persona of the human they once were (possibly even something captured at the moment they were sired), but still remain almost totally feeling-less. It's more of a character that the demon plays. This can be seen a lot in season 6, not only in Spike, but also in the high school vamps from "All the Way"; who I always imagine have been playing that angle for many years.

Spike's vampire instinct had him taking on the persona of a hero to fit into Buffy's life; yet much to Spike's frustration, he could only imitate the part. He realises this in "Seeing Red" and seeks out his soul to really become what he thought Buffy wanted.

Gunn conforms to this theory nicely. His last moments as a human had Gunn dropping everything in his life, and his life itself, for the mission. The vampire that took residence is continuing this role as it is all it knows at this point. Vampire Gunn is still very much evil though.

Continuing on from my point about Vampires taking on the feelings and "missions" of the human they embodied...
Angel had a row with his father, met Darla and was turned. His first evil action? Went and killed his family.
Spike was a sappy poet, who as a vampire continues to be love's bitch. He also tries to save his sick mother.
Darla was a prostitue, and she was often seducing her victims first (notice how the Master is oddly similar to her vampire pimp too? lol).
Drusilla was driven to insanity... and was still insane... fairly simple that one hehe.

[barryshaft]

henz said:

Seems to me that not only do some feelings transfer over, but also a feeling of unfinished buisness.

What I have settled on after several viewings of Buffy and Angel is that vampires are evil, but far from simple.
I think they take on aspects the persona of the human they once were (possibly even something captured at the moment they were sired), but still remain almost totally feeling-less. It's more of a character that the demon plays. This can be seen a lot in season 6, not only in Spike, but also in the high school vamps from "All the Way"; who I always imagine have been playing that angle for many years.

Spike's vampire instinct had him taking on the persona of a hero to fit into Buffy's life; yet much to Spike's frustration, he could only imitate the part. He realises this in "Seeing Red" and seeks out his soul to really become what he thought Buffy wanted.

Gunn conforms to this theory nicely. His last moments as a human had Gunn dropping everything in his life, and his life itself, for the mission. The vampire that took residence is continuing this role as it is all it knows at this point. Vampire Gunn is still very much evil though.

Continuing on from my point about Vampires taking on the feelings and "missions" of the human they embodied...
Angel had a row with his father, met Darla and was turned. His first evil action? Went and killed his family.
Spike was a sappy poet, who as a vampire continues to be love's bitch. He also tries to save his sick mother.
Darla was a prostitue, and she was often seducing her victims first (notice how the Master is oddly similar to her vampire pimp too? lol).
Drusilla was driven to insanity... and was still insane... fairly simple that one hehe.

Really good points there Henz.

[hunter233]

Love henz's points. (Blessed ya, btw, I think I owe you one, hehe )

As for the issue of Angelus vs Angel compared to Spike vs... well, Spike, I think that's because of the type of vampire they each were. Angelus is drastically different from Angel not entirely because of the soul. Think of who Angelus is as a soulless demon. What defines him is that he loves evil. He treats it as an art form. He cherishes human suffering. Now obviously, with a soul, all that has to go. That doesn't mean that Angel's not CAPABLE of being the same person as Angelus, in fact, quite the opposite. When Darla first turned him she spoke of the "potential" he had, and I believe that's exactly what she meant by it. Liam probably could have been an A-list serial killer, and that's probably part of the reason wasting away his life. The reason Angel is drastically different from Angelus is that he chooses to be. Yes, it's motivated by the soul, but it's not solely because of it. Spike, on the other hand, was defined mainly by his ability to love and his love for violence. Neither of these things is inherently evil and, as he has shown since gaining his soul, both these things can be used for good. That's why he didn't change as much. Because he doesn't have to deny everything he was as a soulless vamp in order to be good.

So yeah, there's a demon in there that really wants to do evil things, but it's still mixed with the humanity that is left behind in the mind that it's using. Who a vampire is is certainly influenced by who you were as a human. Spike was a lovebird before and after. Harmony was never anything but a follower. She only "did good" (and I think we can hardly argue she was ever really good), because she wanted to be a part of the team, like as a human in high school and as a vampire from then on. Angel, well, we never really got to see who he was as a human because he didn't really ever try to be anybody. But if we can use his ensouled self as a reference, well... the love for art is certainly there (only the canvas differs), and he certainly has very good insight into the human psyche. Actually, now that I think of it, he did as Liam too. After all, he was apparently able to get quite a few women into bed, heh.

So, in my opinion, if ANYONE could be a good, soulless vampire, I believe it'd be Gunn. Gunn doesn't get as much credit as he deserves. I realized that as I was rewatching Angel with my roommate. I never really liked Gunn that much the first time through, but now I've come to really respect him. I may be mistaken, but I believe he's the only example we have of an ordinary human fighting the good fight for no other reason than that it was the good fight. Xander and Willow both did cause they were the Slayer's friends. Giles and Wesley cause they were born into the Watcher world. Fred cause she got tossed into a hell dimension. Cordy, well... Cordy never really got into it till the visions were thrust on her. Gunn, on the other hand, simply found out there were vampires and fought them to help people. Even though he was outmatched, even though he fully expected to die in a matter of years, he picked up a weapon, and he fought, for no other reason than to make others' lives better. He's not only one of the purest heroes the Buffyverse has, but he practically embodies the theme of Angel itself. The mission was his life. So again, if anyone could continue to do good without a soul, it would be him. And I honestly believe he could. Actually, I'll be at least a little disappointed if he doesn't do at least SOME good, cause otherwise I'd feel that his becoming a vamp would be a terrible disservice to his character.

[henzINNIT]

The mix with humanity is why vampires are looked down upon by other demons too. The scourge for for instance. Half-breeds, innit.

I agree about Gunn. I too didn't think much of him at first, but he really grew on me. He's quite easily looked over because as stated, he's a pretty clean-cut good guy. His arc in season 5 is one of my favourites, and I look forward to finally reading this story in June lol

[hunter233]

I thought I should bring this up too. I was watching Buffy S7 earlier tonight with my roommate, and it dawned on me that Spike actually was pretty different when he got his soul. It wasn't until Buffy told him he was useless that he started acting like the Spike we knew and loved. Beforehand he was kinda mopey and much less violent, much more William the Bloody-ish.

[skullovitch]

Well I suppose I'll go with the popular vote and say that it really all just depends. I mean Spike didn't have a soul until season 7 of buffy and he wanted to fight for good. Well actually i guess thats mainly because he loved buffy and he had that damn chip in his head, but someone like Gunn, I imagine with all his tenasity and willpower he would be able to over come the vampiric nature he is a part of now.

[balesthebloody]

skullovitch said:

I imagine with all his tenasity and willpower he would be able to over come the vampiric nature he is a part of now.

I think that willpower is the key to everything. Good call there.

[skullovitch]

balesthebloody said:

skullovitch said:

I imagine with all his tenasity and willpower he would be able to over come the vampiric nature he is a part of now.

I think that willpower is the key to everything. Good call there.

yeah, I always thought of Gunn as someone who could be put into any situation but still keep his morals with him no matter what. So it's definatly a compelling situation to see him as a Vampire now in After The Fall. But of course no matter what you can never really be able to fully trust him, I mean look at Harmony, she played the good vamp role but just wound up screwing everyone over at the end, so ya never know, but I have alittle more faith in Gunn.