Twilight / Dawn, is that too obvious?

[Mathieu]

I have a theory and I'm wondering if it's just too obvious to be true. Or else everybody already believes the same thing I do and I'm just a little late here.

Does anybody else think, almost for sure, that Twilight is Fray's twin brother called Harth? I haven't read the comic yet but I've read a lot about it and it seems he was killed in the comic. Afterward Fray found out that he didn't get actually killed and he even became a vampire, only he has the slayer's super powers because he's her twin brother.

Buffy also has a sister and her name is Dawn. Only they are not twins. Dawn doesn't have any super strength but she's a Key.

Although the parallelism seems so obvious to me. Dawn / Twilight. What would their connection be? What's really up for Dawn? And why would Harth have himself called Twilight now. How does he time travel? I guess we'll have the answer in issue #16.

What do you think?

PS: I just realized there's a lot of talking going on for issues #16 and 17 and I hope all of this hasn't been disccused yet. Sorry.

[faith0tvs]

Hmm i do think that Twilight and Dawn are connected and that she's the traitor but i donnot think that she continues to be the key.Couldbe that Twilight promised her to de-giantize her if she fullfilled a mission or something.
Besides Dawn ain't Buffy's twin ,she's just a younger sibling!

PS My theory si that Dawn betrayed Buffy to someone who cared about her whilst her own sister considered her as a burden.

[Rachster]

I don't think dawn and twilight are connected it just seems way to obvious to me i reckon twilight is going to be someone who we least expect
I also think that dawns still the key and something is gonna happen to do with that Maybe twilight can control her somehow?



...and




i wanna know who twilight is

:'(I cant stand waiting

[El Diablo Robotico]

Harth as Twilight has been brought up before. I'm not seeing it, mainly for size issues. Twilight is a big dude (the guesses of Riley certainly fit, size-wise), and Harth is a little runt, similar to Oz...

[Rebecca]

May 7, 2008 7:36:41 GMT -5 faith0tvs said:

Hmm i do think that Twilight and Dawn are connected and that she's the traitor but i donnot think that she continues to be the key.Couldbe that Twilight promised her to de-giantize her if she fullfilled a mission or something.
Besides Dawn ain't Buffy's twin ,she's just a younger sibling!

PS My theory si that Dawn betrayed Buffy to someone who cared about her whilst her own sister considered her as a burden.

Actually Dawn shares Buffy's blood, so technically she's as related to Buffy as Harth is to Melaka.

Though, I think it may be too obvious a connection. The only connection I see as plausible is Dawn (being opposite of Twilight) could give birth to someone who defeats Twilight. Interesting.... dunno where that came from. Guess all the predictions that she's pregnant is getting to me.

[jellymoff]

I don't think Harth is Twilight, for a few reasons, but mostly because our Fray arc is coming and I think Joss will make us wait until like issue 25 or 30 to find out who Twilight is. If it is someone we know, I think Riley or Oz (despite his size) because I could see reasons why they would both want to be rid of magic. Also, Joss says Oz is coming back. But it probably won't be any of those people.

[Mathieu]

I don't see Oz being the new Big Bad. I can picture Riley though, it would be the best (and only?) way to finally make his character more interesting.

My theory does seem too obvious to be true but I stick to it.

[richieshag89]

i still think he's Ethan Rayne

[twilightbass]

May 7, 2008 11:50:10 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Harth as Twilight has been brought up before. I'm not seeing it, mainly for size issues. Twilight is a big dude (the guesses of Riley certainly fit, size-wise), and Harth is a little runt, similar to Oz...

Remember Harth was 15 when he was sired, that's why he looks like that.

[El Diablo Robotico]

May 12, 2008 17:04:37 GMT -5 twilightbass said:

May 7, 2008 11:50:10 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Harth as Twilight has been brought up before. I'm not seeing it, mainly for size issues. Twilight is a big dude (the guesses of Riley certainly fit, size-wise), and Harth is a little runt, similar to Oz...

Remember Harth was 15 when he was sired, that's why he looks like that.

Right... but he's still not going to be shooting up another six inches in height, or adding another thirty pounds of muscle anytime soon, any more than Dru's hair is gonna start turning gray...

[wenxina]

May 12, 2008 17:04:37 GMT -5 twilightbass said:

May 7, 2008 11:50:10 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Harth as Twilight has been brought up before. I'm not seeing it, mainly for size issues. Twilight is a big dude (the guesses of Riley certainly fit, size-wise), and Harth is a little runt, similar to Oz...

Remember Harth was 15 when he was sired, that's why he looks like that.

I remember, if not forgetting counts. Your point is?

[Jsebold87]

I have several theories about who Twilight is. My first impression was Andrew, which is weird. Sure he has a nerdy persona, but he's been on the Big Bad side before, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. That idea seems like a bit of a stretch, but just something about it feels right to me. The comment that he made in "A Beatiful Sunset" about his neck itching just seemed so like him. Plus 2 of the slayers that were being taught by him turned bad.

Other thoughts I have about who Twilight is are: Riley, Warren (with skin; I kinda doubt this idea though), Graham (Riley's Initiative buddy), Caleb (I know he was split in half but if we know the Buffyverse, we should know by now that anything is possible).

The thing that made me think of Warren was Twilight's remark "And always complaining. Just like a girl." As we all know Warren doesn't respect women much at all, so this remark wouldn't be far from what he'd say. But I think I'm reaching there. The remark is also very Caleb. That line Buffy says "Go ahead church me." could be a clue that it is Caleb, since he use to be a preacher. And he's big with the lectures and the talk like Twilight is. And he also seems to know Buffy's moves, "I know that move Slayer", when the scythe is in the same place where Buffy split him in half. lol, once again it seems like a bit of a reach.

It's really frustrating me that we don't know who Twilight is, I really want to know! lol

-Jess

[twilightbass]

May 12, 2008 18:03:45 GMT -5 wenxina said:

May 12, 2008 17:04:37 GMT -5 twilightbass said:

Remember Harth was 15 when he was sired, that's why he looks like that.

I remember, if not forgetting counts. Your point is?

That the Twilight being Harth theory just doesn't make any sense...

Besides, Buffy fought Twilight at the sunrise, when the sun was already out, if Twilight was a vamp he would be fried by then.

[CowboyGuy]

I think Twilight MUST be either:

Xander (future Xander?)
Giles
Angel/Angelus (human now!)
Riley

Remember, Spike and Angel were in the room when Buffy sliced Caleb in half! No one else would have seen that...and Buffy mentioned it to the gang when she returned home. So that leaves it open for either Xander or Giles to fill that role. Since we are dealing with time-travel now...it could even be Xander of the future, or even Giles.

Another theory I have is...it might be someone new. He seems to know her, but that could be just a way to throw us all off. After re-reading the scenes with him, he may not even be an evil character, that so far we are lead to believe. Yes, he is not on Buffy's side...but he also said that she has "messed up the balance, and it falls to him to correct it". Kinda funny for a big bad to say. Plus he wasn't that interested in killing her.

[El Diablo Robotico]

May 14, 2008 2:47:04 GMT -5 twilightbass said:

Besides, Buffy fought Twilight at the sunrise, when the sun was already out, if Twilight was a vamp he would be fried by then.

But his outfit covers every inch of his skin, and would protect him the way Spike's blanket did (even better, obviously) when he was trying to get around Sunnydale in the daylight.

My guesses are the same as CBG's, except I'd sub in Ethan for my list where he has Angel(us) on his. I'm really leaning toward future-Xander now, after the Renee thing. Assuming she dies, I can envision Xander deciding the Slayer spell was the wrong move, and that girls like Renee should never have been placed in such dangerous situations (Twilight even mentions in #11 that one Slayer was okay, but 1800 of them, not so much). But, still being a good guy and realizing that demons and vampires need to be fought, and apocalypses stopped, he takes the Gordian Knot solution and decides that the best move is to just banish all magic--and, by extension, all vampires and demons along with it. Then there's no more need for a Slayer, and the girls who had the power (or the potential for it) are now allowed to live out their normal, safe lives.

The one flaw in that is, why wouldn't future-Xander just sit down with Buffy and his present-day self and explain what he wanted to accomplish and why? (Unless he was worried about the time paradox that would be created by that, but something tells me Joss wouldn't consider the time-travel idea that deeply.) And why would he travel back to this point in the timeline, rather than S7, before the Slayer spell? But, for now at least, I'm sticking with him as my guess...

[Mathieu]

May 14, 2008 3:16:53 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

May 14, 2008 2:47:04 GMT -5 twilightbass said:

Besides, Buffy fought Twilight at the sunrise, when the sun was already out, if Twilight was a vamp he would be fried by then.

But his outfit covers every inch of his skin, and would protect him the way Spike's blanket did (even better, obviously) when he was trying to get around Sunnydale in the daylight.

My guesses are the same as CBG's, except I'd sub in Ethan for my list where he has Angel(us) on his. I'm really leaning toward future-Xander now, after the Renee thing. Assuming she dies, I can envision Xander deciding the Slayer spell was the wrong move, and that girls like Renee should never have been placed in such dangerous situations (Twilight even mentions in #11 that one Slayer was okay, but 1800 of them, not so much). But, still being a good guy and realizing that demons and vampires need to be fought, and apocalypses stopped, he takes the Gordian Knot solution and decides that the best move is to just banish all magic--and, by extension, all vampires and demons along with it. Then there's no more need for a Slayer, and the girls who had the power (or the potential for it) are now allowed to live out their normal, safe lives.

The one flaw in that is, why wouldn't future-Xander just sit down with Buffy and his present-day self and explain what he wanted to accomplish and why? (Unless he was worried about the time paradox that would be created by that, but something tells me Joss wouldn't consider the time-travel idea that deeply.) And why would he travel back to this point in the timeline, rather than S7, before the Slayer spell? But, for now at least, I'm sticking with him as my guess...

Interesting!! All of your theories are fascinating, dunno what to think though. Anybody else think there's gonna be a clash sometimes between Xander wanting the end of magic and Willow wanting to prevent it?

[El Diablo Robotico]

On second thought, maybe there is a good reason, beyond just time-travel-nerd, time-paradox stuff, for why future-Xander wouldn't just meet up with present-day Buffy and himself and tell them his plan. What if he knew that Buffy wouldn't go along with it, no matter how well he explained it, and how much sense it made?

In "Peace Out", Connor gives this long monologue to a comatose Cordy about how Angel and his friends really secretly like evil, because it gives them a reason to fight. I've always thought he was way off-base, and maybe he is when talking about the LA crew, but is this actually a good description of Buffy? When she briefly lost her powers ("Helpless"), she completely freaked out. She explained that after knowing what was out there in the dark, she couldn't go back to being just a normal girl now, but the same episode showed that she also enjoys her powers in non-slayee ways, too, when she tries to rescue Cordelia, who was being harassed by that guy. A couple of episodes later, Faith tells Buffy that she knows that she gets off on slaying; Buffy denies it at first, but when Faith presses her on it, admits that yeah, she does.

So even if it meant an end to all supernatural evil, would Buffy willingly give her powers up and go back to being just a normal girl? I believe that her head, the logical part of her, would say "yes, absolutely," but her gut, the instinctual part of her that's the Slayer, would rebel against the idea. She might give a very good explanation of why she thinks the banishment of magic & demons is a bad move ("What if it doesn't get rid of all the demons, and then there are no slayers left to fight them?"), but really, it would just be that part of her doesn't want to give up the powers that make her special. And Twilight--whether he's future-Xander, future-Giles, or someone else who knows her really well--realizes this about her, that she might not go along with the idea for selfish reasons even if the cause is a good one, and decided it was too risky to involve her. Better to just carry out his plan on his own.

And I'm not sure how much this plays into it, if any at all, but don't discount the military element with Xander, either. I know everyone's using the military thing as a link with Riley, but Xander also had that "sexy army training". Doug Petrie mentions in an audio commentary that they'd decided by S4 that the spell had pretty much worn off and he'd lost most of that knowledge, but if Joss could forget about Warren/the First, is it too much to think maybe he forgot about this little detail, too? And even if he didn't, it wasn't firmly established enough that he couldn't change his mind and reverse field on that, if it made for a better plot. Don't forget that the two times Xander used these abilities for Scooby-centric purposes ("Innocence" and "Graduation Day, Pt. 2") were in episodes written by Joss himself.

And of course, who would fit the description of the betrayal ("the closest, the most unexpected") better than Xander?

Yep, the more I think about this, the more I'm talking myself into believing it's Xander from the future...

[Mathieu]

May 14, 2008 13:18:58 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

On second thought, maybe there is a good reason, beyond just time-travel-nerd, time-paradox stuff, for why future-Xander wouldn't just meet up with present-day Buffy and himself and tell them his plan. What if he knew that Buffy wouldn't go along with it, no matter how well he explained it, and how much sense it made?

In "Peace Out", Connor gives this long monologue to a comatose Cordy about how Angel and his friends really secretly like evil, because it gives them a reason to fight. I've always thought he was way off-base, and maybe he is when talking about the LA crew, but is this actually a good description of Buffy? When she briefly lost her powers ("Helpless"), she completely freaked out. She explained that after knowing what was out there in the dark, she couldn't go back to being just a normal girl now, but the same episode showed that she also enjoys her powers in non-slayee ways, too, when she tries to rescue Cordelia, who was being harassed by that guy. A couple of episodes later, Faith tells Buffy that she knows that she gets off on slaying; Buffy denies it at first, but when Faith presses her on it, admits that yeah, she does.

So even if it meant an end to all supernatural evil, would Buffy willingly give her powers up and go back to being just a normal girl? I believe that her head, the logical part of her, would say "yes, absolutely," but her gut, the instinctual part of her that's the Slayer, would rebel against the idea. She might give a very good explanation of why she thinks the banishment of magic & demons is a bad move ("What if it doesn't get rid of all the demons, and then there are no slayers left to fight them?"), but really, it would just be that part of her doesn't want to give up the powers that make her special. And Twilight--whether he's future-Xander, future-Giles, or someone else who knows her really well--realizes this about her, that she might not go along with the idea for selfish reasons even if the cause is a good one, and decided it was too risky to involve her. Better to just carry out his plan on his own.

And I'm not sure how much this plays into it, if any at all, but don't discount the military element with Xander, either. I know everyone's using the military thing as a link with Riley, but Xander also had that "sexy army training". Doug Petrie mentions in an audio commentary that they'd decided by S4 that the spell had pretty much worn off and he'd lost most of that knowledge, but if Joss could forget about Warren/the First, is it too much to think maybe he forgot about this little detail, too? And even if he didn't, it wasn't firmly established enough that he couldn't change his mind and reverse field on that, if it made for a better plot. Don't forget that the two times Xander used these abilities for Scooby-centric purposes ("Innocence" and "Graduation Day, Pt. 2") were in episodes written by Joss himself.

And of course, who would fit the description of the betrayal ("the closest, the most unexpected") better than Xander?

Yep, the more I think about this, the more I'm talking myself into believing it's Xander from the future...

That's weird, I never thought about Buffy not wanting the end of magic because she digs having superpowers. I could see that too. But I stick to my feeling that Willow would be the one fighting (and betraying?) for keeping the magic.

[buffysmglover]

I'm staying away from this since I haven't a clue about what happens in Fray.

[mattitudev2]

I really have no idea at all who it could be, but I personally would feel pretty cheated if it turned out to be something like so-and-so from the future. I know we're going to be dealing with time travel soon, but having all of these versions of people from the future, past, etc. is something I would definitely like to keep to a minimum.

To me, that would be as bad as if they had pulled some soap opera-esque move and Twilight ended up being Buffy's long lost illegitimate brother that nobody ever told her about.