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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 7:56:39 GMT -5
You could probably do it over at the TV sub-board.
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rufio
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 205
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Post by rufio on Sept 4, 2008 9:03:40 GMT -5
So a lot of good stuff going on in this issue.
I liked how the tree people were played for laughs. But there DEFINITELY wasn't enough Dawn + Xander in this issue. They better get some serious story in part 4.
I liked that we finally got to see more of Saga Vasuki. She is a cool character except I'm not sure how I feel about her being all naked with Willow. What the hell is that all about??? yea we've seen our characters in relationships with vampires, werewolves and ex-demons but this snake lady is just kind of weird.
I liked the interaction between Fray/Willow and Buffy/Erin.
Also, the cut to the panel of buffy and the crashed car and her line "Oh futuristic snap!" both made me smile!!
I think the arc is shaping up nicely. I'm super excited for the concluding issue! It comes out on my birthday!! October 1!! ;D
Time, only time!
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somethingblue27
Innocent Bystander
"There is only one thing on tis earth more powerfull than evil. And that's us."[Mo0:2]
Posts: 31
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Post by somethingblue27 on Sept 4, 2008 9:47:06 GMT -5
coolnes :-)
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Post by KingofCretins on Sept 4, 2008 12:15:41 GMT -5
Not the best Season 8 issue so far, but it still advances the plot considerably.
I think Buffy and Fray's partnership is showing us some really difficult things about Buffy this season. For a while now, most of us have been really happy that Buffy has found her sense of humor again and it's been swell. It's felt like she's no longer the rather bitter and cold Buffy she often was in Seasons 6 and 7. And that's true, but only in a sense. In fact, it's true only in the worst sense. Buffy has lost the mission, and lost it badly. For all her good cheer and good humor that she's managed... she can no longer be bothered to jump in and slay some vampires to protect people. She was ready to accept watching vampires kill some people so that the vampires in question would be alive to follow back to their headquarters. Melaka, for her part, was rightfully disgusted by this and dove in... which only exposed her to Willow and whatever she had to say.
I do find it interesting to see Buffy and Erin together, commiserating about being big sisters, and Buffy say she thought about becoming a cop. Either that's a straight retcon of "What's My Line", or we're learning something new about Buffy -- at the time, she was openly offended at the idea law enforcement was a good career for her. Now, though, it seems like a good idea for a non-Slayer happy ending for her if Joss ever needs to come up with one.
Melaka is a joy, IMO. I still think she's going to be killed in 8.19, but I'm glad she's here to give Buffy a kick in the ass. I don't know what Willow must have shown her to make her turn on Buffy, but for the first time I'm starting to think it must have been legit if Fray thinks it's bad. Either Buffy really is dangerous and Fray and FDW are on the right side, or Willow lied to Fray. Either is possible right now.
I liked the Gunther scene, nice to see two good bad guy types have a nice staredown. Didn't seem to advance the story, but it was cool.
The forest scene with Xander and Dawn was pretty solid -- definitely improved by having the two of them completely indifferent to the Fire Ent guys, the obligatory Gilmore Girls reference by Xander, and the Fire Ent guy being all confused that something is scarier than they are. The chemistry and tension between Xander and Dawn is pretty stable, and teetering on 'shippy.
Willow... I have basically lost all respect for. Again with the serpent lady sex, and dialogue that suggests that she A) is enjoying it, and B) is somehow loyal to Vasuki, willingly. It strikes me as being little more than an affair that happens to be magically useful. I think Tara would be ashamed of what Willow has let herself turn into, and not just future Willow. I liked the touch that future Willow is essentially powerless -- just used all her power to stay alive for this, one assumes. So maybe 8.19 will have FDW dying, too.
Interesting trivia -- Willow telling Fray that the most important men in both of their lives (meaning Buffy's and Fray's) are both vampires. Seems like Joss is A) declaring for the 50% of the audience that prefers the vampire 'ships, and B) implying he is going to get off that fence eventually. Oh well.
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Post by vampiresaiyan on Sept 4, 2008 14:27:19 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this issue. I agree def. not the best issue, but strong in advancing the story yes. As far as what has been said about Willow. I don't know what to think. Willow has always been my fav so its hard to try to not like her. Even as Dark Willow. I have a feeling what she showed Fray was legit. I am not saying Buffy is bad, but she has had to become so tuff and so many times look at the BIG PICTURE as she calls it that she has lost sight of some things. Much like Angel in Season 5. But I def think Willow feels bad about what she has had to become in both the future and now. She might seem like she is enjoying it, but I think deep down she hates herself for it. I mean I know she has changed, but she will always deep down be little nerdy long hair Willow ^^
VS ^vv^
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Post by richieshag89 on Sept 4, 2008 15:20:08 GMT -5
ok so issue 18... Well i usually dont give a full review or my full thoughts on the issues but i have a few things i just wanted to know what people thought about. Buffy at first-kinda sad Xander and Dawn-funny stuff, im sure people are upset they didnt get sweaty by doing other things Gunther-vampire fish? Fish food? ok so here starts the real stuff when Fray and Summers are flying and Buffy is ready to just let those people die... That is so out of character for her, i think. It could be because she is in a foreign world that she doesnt realize the humanity in these people because she is not used to these surroundings, but i think it is Joss trying to show the direction she is traveling, which we almost wouldve been able to hear her thoughts about if it wasnt for fray's abrupt end to the issue, but back to that later.. ANyway i think that was out of character for her, the Buffy we knew for 7 years would have never walked by an alley of people dying Brings us to willow, present willow- hot lesbian sex brings her to the goddess that is possibly evil and knows about willows future? future willow- ok this is where this issue hit me the most. First of all, is she a goddess? an immortal? is she like glory where she used to be so powerful and now she can barely muster up a glamour? But in her conversation with melaka she said something very important to me... "the most important men in both of your lives are 'lurks'." Is this foreshadowing the return of some important lurks that are busy in hell right now? i dont know but its like the only mention of them for the past year and a half. and what did willow show fray? what did she show her? AND HOW IS THIS ALL GOING TO BE RESOLVED WITH ONLY ONE ISSUE LEFT IN THE ARC? ? ugh, annoying. whatever she showed her made her think stopping buffy was the right thing, whatever she got a glimpse of us probably true, i feel kinda bad for buffy, everyone is going to turn on her by the end of the season. She is the big bad.... i just wanna know why!!!!
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Post by vampiresaiyan on Sept 4, 2008 15:41:15 GMT -5
Yeah it does seem Buffy has been made the big bad, but its like I said I think Buffy has always been very good is good bad is bad besides the six season which is what this brings me back to. It seems this season is all about what you really believe is right and the fact that there is no black and white mostly grey areas. Buffy is doing what she has to. But along the way she has made some bad decisions. I think the fact that there are TONS of slayers all over the world yet Buffy is still made to be the one. Not only The One but now she has to train and take care of all these other girls. I just think its so much strain on her that she has become kinda wreckless. I think this would be the BIG PROBLEM part of the season. I think by the end of the season we will see buffy emerge okay, but not before some crazy twists and turns(and maybe even a death!) but yeah I think this series is doing exactly what the show has done for all of us for 7 years. Kept us entertained and wanting more!
VS ^vv^
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Sept 4, 2008 15:41:55 GMT -5
Well, again I'm feeling stronger and stronger about stopping this. I really feel like the dialog and characters are OOC. I hate the direction they're taking Willow in, and Dawn/Xander! EW. "ridden hard and put away wet". For some reason I think the arcs that are not written by Joss are much stronger and more exciting. I will wait for the end of this arc to make a decision.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 16:07:49 GMT -5
*puts on doorman uniform*
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Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Whedon Fan on Sept 4, 2008 16:14:31 GMT -5
Very good issue. I loved that a lot of it was set in the future as this is about Buffy and Fray and so far we have hardly seen them and this is the third issue. I am glad that Xander and Dawn were not rrealy in this issue because I'm not really into Dawn as a character (except in season 5) never mind her as a giant or centaur. Xander should have juts rounded up the remaining slayers and fought against the green demons with Xander leading the troops. I think this would have been better than the weird tree people.
WHAT DID WILLOW SHOW FRAY?!! Argh, I'm guessing we wont find out in this arc but my guess is that she uses her slayer power for something not good. We have already seen this happen through out the season so far:
*Buffy stealing to fund the slayers *Buffy ignoring Dawn *Buffy setting up innocent decoy slayers to protect herself *Seems to be killing humans this season (mainly issue 4 and I'm sure a few other issues)
So to all the people who are saying Buffy is oput of character this season. I think that this is the whole point, she is supposed to be and it is not going anywhere good as Dark Willow showed Fray. Anyhoo I loved the scene between Gunther and Harth, at first I was like oh no they can't kill Gunther but then I realised it was GUNTHER he can handle himself and he did it brilliantly.
"Woo Summers you drive like a spazz"! Excellant line from the episode Band Candy by Principal Snyder then used by Fray...excellant!! I did like this issue and it is in my top 5 just becasue of the ending (right now anyway), can't wait for the last issuse it is shapping up to be a good one.
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Sept 4, 2008 16:19:08 GMT -5
I went to my comic shop today, only to be informed that while they recieved Angel (and THANK GOD), that their shipment was screwy and they didn't get Buffy. So now I'm going to have to wait another day until Saturday when I can drive to Borders to get myself a copy.
Oh the horror of it all!
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Post by Emmie on Sept 4, 2008 17:02:54 GMT -5
Got my issue today! I love this throwback to 'Band Candy' and Principle Snyder:
"Summers. You drive like a spaz!" - Fray "And that phrase stood the test of time." - Buffy
Okay so I've got a little theory going. Buffy is partly responsible for banishing magic from this dimension which also banished Willow. Willow managed to return to Earth "not quite a human" and used what little magic she could access to bring Buffy to the future and wipe the Watcher's records of the records of Buffy's acts in the past. Now she's manipulating Fray to kill Buffy. She says her "concerns are more personal". What is motivating Future Willow? What did Buffy do that makes Willow want her dead?
If Fray kills Buffy in the future, then whatever Buffy would do to Willow in the present time would never come to pass. Is this what Willow wants? To kill Buffy in the future so that present day Buffy won't be alive to hurt Willow?
I loved the scene with Gunther and Harth. An excellent showdown that displays how badass Gunther is and the twist at the end "lurks don't breathe either" by Harth was brilliant and chilling.
This issue should be called Time of Fray's Trap. It opens with the Watcher's books being altered so that Fray has no reliable source information. While Fray is being lured into meeting Willow, Harth is attacking Gunther, Fray's one reliable source of intel. When she's pulled into a meeting with Willow who shows her something that makes her attack Buffy.
What does Buffy do in the present day timeline that Willow could show Fray? It makes me wonder if a horrible event caused by the slayers being revealed to the world leads to this post apocalyptic Frayverse.
A few interesting parallels between the three main players in this drama - Buffy, Fray and Willow. Buffy talks about the big picture. Fray leaps into the fray (ah punnage) without hesitation, she's impulsive and very in the moment. Willow talks about personal concerns.
Harking back to s7 when Buffy says she's learned the lesson that one life sacrificed could save the world - I wonder if Buffy sacrificed Willow or someone Willow loved in order to save the world. Implementing her 'big picture' philosophy and hurting Willow in the process. As a result, Willow is now solely concerned with the personal picture and wants Buffy dead, either as revenge or to change the past and prevent Buffy's betrayal. Almost as if she's killing Buffy while she's still a friend, freezing their friendship in time.
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Post by willowxwonka on Sept 4, 2008 17:11:21 GMT -5
Ugh, my comic book store isn't getting it until next week! :cry:
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Sept 4, 2008 17:31:12 GMT -5
I thought the issue was pretty weak. I enjoyed with Dark Willow parts. Am I to understand that her only being allowed to cast that one spell at that particular time means her magic is greatly weakend? Makes sense. ALSO - Her saying that she has earned the MADWOMAN card means that something crucial has happened to her. I think that means Kennedy dies. But that is my opinion.
Yeah like Mikey said, the Xander and Dawn stuff was annoying and unnecessary. I really don't care if the tree people help them out or not.
I want to get as much as I can out of this arc and it just isn't delivering in terms of "bringing the juice". Maybe it's the art. I hope it's not the writing. I guess I will find out in a month from now.
Wolves at the Gate was so good. This isn't as good.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 18:59:01 GMT -5
I thought the issue was pretty weak. I enjoyed with Dark Willow parts. Am I to understand that her only being allowed to cast that one spell at that particular time means her magic is greatly weakend? Makes sense. ALSO - Her saying that she has earned the MADWOMAN card means that something crucial has happened to her. I think that means Kennedy dies. But that is my opinion. Well, flashback to the precoital moment: "Ken-Doll, do you trust me and know that I love you and I'm not a crazy person and what we do is for the greater good cross your heart and no backsies?" Think that has some significance?
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 20:43:53 GMT -5
So... reading it a second time, certain things came back to me. One, I have to say that I agree with Buffy's plan of action. Yes, it may seem callous, but there here's my reasoning. The lurks aren't out to kill, they're hunting parties sent to collect victims for food, yes, but to also be turned into an army. That much I got from Willow's dialogue in #17. The one person who got hurt, that was the person that broke away from the crowd. I take that to mean that the people in the truck were probably not in any immediate danger. So following them back to their lair would have been gravy. However, having said that, I don't think that Fray was any less right, and while KoC has brought up the issue of her being a stand-in for Wesley, I took her to be a dramatic foil for Buffy. Fray is reacting exactly how Buffy would have when she was younger; impulsively and following her instincts. Buffy on the other hand has learnt that strategy is often key in winning a battle. It has been so in seasons 3, 4, 5, and 7. And really, if we're going to call Buffy off on her ethics, how bout the same treatment for Fray? At least up to this point, she's willing to sacrifice a Slayer to save the world. Could be that it's a ruse, but as long as we're calling people out, I don't think she's exempt.
But anyway, I think we may have our explanation for the cover image of #19. Willow says: "Time-bending isn't some cross-dimensional jaunt. And it's dangerous. Only someone on the deep dark would mess with that." Probably gonna have to go dark again. But this is what kinda puzzles me. Willow then says: "So who told you..." and Vasuki responds "Someone I trusted" to which Willow says: "I'm sorry. You know how grateful I am for what we... what you taught me..." I understood Willow to be asking Vasuki who gave her the false lead, but the next two lines throw me off. Vasuki's body language can probably only be described as "huffy" when she says "Someone I trusted"... and Willow responds with an apology. Either she understands that it was her who told Vasuki, or she's apologizing for questioning the source. Right now, I'm gonna have to go with the latter... but it was kinda twisty. What's kinda funny too, is that Vasuki looks almost exactly like Mel. At least in Fray. The nose is pretty much spot on, and remove the greenish coloring, and she's pretty much Mel.
Another thing that puzzles me is Willow's lack of magic. If she's as powerless as she says, how the heck did she bend the fabric of time, open a rift and snatch Buffy from the present? Unless she's using her reserves. Anyhow, what is it that Willow could show Fray that would have her turn on Buffy? A better future? One in which magic is not vanquished, the future that Buffy thought she had created? A future where Harth is not a vampire? That future is only attainable if Twilight doesn't win, his victory ensures that magic is banished, at least that's what the oracle-demon guy said. So why kill Buffy? Help her win, and status quo is peachy. Unless some action of Buffy's triggers Fray's future to come to pass. OR, Willow's playing them all. She really doesn't want Buffy dead, but needs Fray to nab blondie for her because she can't take Buffy herself. Powers gone, see. But what she really wants to do is teach Buffy a lesson, or tell her something important. And seriously, worse case scenario... Fray vs Buffy, while quite possibly being the most awesome showdown since Faith vs Buffy, Buffy vs Angel, or Faith vs Angel, could be somewhat of a sham. For one, it's Buffy's show, not Fray's. And for another, blondie's got years of experience, and if Fray was a bonafide 100% Slayer, maybe she could take her down, but since she doesn't know any of Buffy's moves, I'll go with fat chance. But scripted battles are so passe.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Sept 4, 2008 20:44:53 GMT -5
Am I the only one that liked the Xander/Dawn scene? I thought it felt like I was watching an episode of Buffy when they would make the demons break their characters and "I'm so evil!" charade.
I also really liked the "Band Candy" reference and the reference to Buffy's test in Season 2.
Thanks for pointing that out Emmie that Fray's books were purposely messed up. I didn't get that. I just thought they wrote history down wrong.
Also, what did Willow cast? Is she controlling Fray?
Does anyone think Fray will die by the end of this arc (next issue)?
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spectre
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 8
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Post by spectre on Sept 4, 2008 20:53:01 GMT -5
Willow... I have basically lost all respect for. Again with the serpent lady sex, and dialogue that suggests that she A) is enjoying it, and B) is somehow loyal to Vasuki, willingly. It strikes me as being little more than an affair that happens to be magically useful. I think Tara would be ashamed of what Willow has let herself turn into, and not just future Willow. Great post. I have enjoyed reading many posts here, so I am adding my own as a first- time poster. I wanted to comment on Willow and the revealing of Future Dark Willow (FDW) in this arc. I think readers are in for a twist with this character. Of all the Buffy characters, Willow remained the most insecure and lost until the finale of Season 7. Despite her intelligence, her magical prowess, and ability to instill loyalty, Willow continued to see herself as the floodwater wearing, geek of her youth. Her magic was unpredictable in most cases (even in Season 7 she states, "I suck" when she thinks her magic spell failed). Although Willow means well, the results of her actions often cause severe and negative consequences. Raising Buffy from the dead in Season 6 is a perfect example of this. With that said, I believe Willow's spell activating the slayers in the Season 7 finale was eventually viewed as a mistake. At one point in Season 8, it is mentioned that vampires gain strength from numbers; slayers do not. It is possible that although FDW seems evil, she means well (despite her seemingly questionable actions). In fact, she believes so much in the correctness of her actions that she has lived 200 years to "make things right." The horrifying twist, however, is that “making things right” might mean she is actively taking part in the death of the slayers. Lastly, Willow is not cheating on Kennedy with Saga Vasuki. Her orgasm from having sex with Kennedy is allowing her to make contact with Saga Vasuki. The double meaning of the two uses of “frak” (the first being a curse and the second referencing sex) and the “please come again” line led me to this interpretation.
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soulbrave
Common Vampire
You?re a Hell of a Slayer and You smell Good[Mo0:13]
Posts: 72
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Post by soulbrave on Sept 4, 2008 21:03:59 GMT -5
Really Good Issue! I really Like It! =) I feel sad for Buffy, because she now know that something really bad happens about all the slayer army thing... But i don´t know, i didn´t like to see that Buffy didn´t help the people, i think she lost the real mission of the slayer, but of course, she is not THE slayer anymore (for now), now she is the Leader of a bunch of Slayers... i understand that, but if she don´t remember the mission of a slayer, she will lose it... OK, Willow... I feel So Sad... I don´t know what happens, but i really don´t like to see her like that, she´s not angry or evil, she´s just sad and alone... and wow, the vasuki summoning thing was very intense, i can picture that actually... Xander and Dawn, well, they´re just like always, well, except for dawn, she´s a centaur now I can´t wait till October to read the Big Conclusion =)
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Post by hitnrun017 on Sept 4, 2008 21:14:22 GMT -5
It was a solid issue, heaps better than #17.
The only problem I had with this issue is that nothing really groundbreaking happened, wasn't that exciting, the ending wasn't shocking either. I can't wait for the conclusion because I really want know why exactly Dark Willow is gunning for Buffy. Maybe her and Melaka are doing the right thing. Also keen on knowing Harth's plan. I was very happy that Erin and Buffy got to share a scene, they can easily relate to each other. Willow is annoying me big time..... and please don't kill Gunther. I'm still scratching my head about the trees, kinda curious about how Xander and Dawn's story will wrap up.
Sounds like issue 19 will be delayed sadly, according to Scott Allie in the Slay the Critics sections.
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