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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 21:31:08 GMT -5
About the Slay the Critics section, what kind of surprised me was Allie's response to the letter asking about Oz. His reply said: "No imminent plans for Oz's return, although when asked if he would, a whole year ago, Joss responded simply, Duh." Isn't the Oz arc confirmed?
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Post by Emmie on Sept 4, 2008 22:59:37 GMT -5
But this is what kinda puzzles me. Willow then says: "So who told you..." and Vasuki responds "Someone I trusted" to which Willow says: "I'm sorry. You know how grateful I am for what we... what you taught me..." I understood Willow to be asking Vasuki who gave her the false lead, but the next two lines throw me off. Vasuki's body language can probably only be described as "huffy" when she says "Someone I trusted"... and Willow responds with an apology. Either she understands that it was her who told Vasuki, or she's apologizing for questioning the source. Right now, I'm gonna have to go with the latter... but it was kinda twisty. When Saga Vasuki says "Someone I trusted," I read that as an accusation that Willow used to be someone Saga trusted. That's why Willow apologized, because she had left Saga's tutelage with no explanation (so I'm theorizing).
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 23:25:32 GMT -5
When Saga Vasuki says "Someone I trusted," I read that as an accusation that Willow used to be someone Saga trusted. That's why Willow apologized, because she had left Saga's tutelage with no explanation (so I'm theorizing). Which is fine and dandy, but I'm still having trouble seeing how that jives with "So who told you..." Maybe it'll be clear when I'm less tired, or maybe later in the arc/season. PS: What the hey happened to my Slayer karma? It went from 72 to over 200... I'm not complaining, but I don't remember saving the world or averting an apocalypse.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Sept 5, 2008 1:26:38 GMT -5
I really liked this issue, found it much less confusing than the previous one. Well, I would say that this whole arc has been confusing to me, what with the portal jumping and time travel.
Things about this issue I loved:
Awkward Dawn/Xander moment
Xander: "How're you feeling?" Dawn: "Like I was ridden hard and put away wet." Xander: "Agh! Dawn, that dis -- oh. No. It's just true." Priceless...
I also really love the call back to Band Candy
Meleka: "Summers you drive like a spaz." Buffy: "That Phrase has stood the test of time"
Classic....
And did anybody else find the scenes between Willow and evil snake lady hot? (Ok, just me then, lol).
And did anyone else find it confusing when Buffy and Mel's sister were together? I keep asking myself, "Ok, who is who here?" LOL. They really shouldn't have made them both blonde with ponytails. Can get quite confusing.
Wasn't that an issue back in S6 when they told Emma that she would need to change her hair color b/c it would confuse her with Sarah?
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on Sept 5, 2008 4:31:26 GMT -5
I had very different reactions when reading this issue over my first and second time. The first time I read it, I thought it was a solid issue, certainly not the best we've seen, but good nevertheless. I thought it was interesting, charming and funny and I had a whole bunch of new questions I wanted to be answered. The second time I read through it, it had a far more dire and ominous feeling to the whole thing, one that left me a little anxious, a little depressed and really, weary of what's going down.
To me, there seemed to be a really sombre tone to the whole thing and this whole universe Buffy has been catapulted into and it took me back to my initial reaction of the "Dark Willow" reveal at the end of Issue #16 and how utterly sad she looked. And how in return, that made me feel incredibly sad.
To get to the meaty stuff- Buffy’s decision in this issue to leave the people to die in favour for tracking the vampires is frightfully consistent with how she’s been all year. It goes right back to the final scene in ‘The Long Way Home’ when Buffy chilling accepts, far too cavalier, that she’s at war with the human race. It’s continued onwards from there, with Buffy only becoming enraged at Gigi when she learnt, not that she’d killed humans but that she’d killed a slayer, that’s what caused Buffy nearly to deliver the death blow. As a leader of the slayers she’s become estranged from the regular world and now she’s happy to let innocent people die in favour for her big wars of good versus evil.
I don’t believe Buffy to be evil or anything like that, I still can’t wipe the smile off my face at many of the things she’s done this year. I thought she was fantastic in her finale scene with Satsu, how she refused to leave Xander alone after Renee’s death, how she came to Xander and told him about her problems and how she’s joking around and being with her friends again. She’s far healthier in those respects than she was in season six or season seven, but she’s loosing her morality. Twilight’s right, that could be her downfall and I think it raises whole knew possibilities about Buffy and her betrayer, it seems more and more likely she’s her own betrayer or at least, regrettably, partially deserving of what ever happens to her as we saw in ‘Anywhere But Here.’
Future Willow has a whole aura of sadness emulating around her, I just feel depressed and down every time I see her in a scene. It’s horrible to see her end up in this way and to be so lost in who she is. I keep thinking about everything she’s been through and am anxious to see what happened to make her this way. My best theory as to what she showed Fray? I think she showed Fray that it was Buffy who’s responsible for ending the slayer line. That’s my best bet, and certainly a theory I’ve seen elsewhere but one I’ve had for a while now as well. I’m getting more convinced it’s the most likely outcome of this whole thing and it’s certainly something Fray would try and kill Buffy for to stop from happening.
In regards to present day Willow, well what can I say, she’s been a bad girl. I had a theory before this issue came out that Kennedy needs to mystically die in order for Willow to contact Vasuki, which given the preview pages, is what I guessed she was talking about with all her “do you love me?” talk. I was wrong about Kennedy needing to die, but it appears she did have to a play a part in order to make this happen. Basically, it appears Willow’s been sleeping with Kennedy which is her gateway into contacting Vasuki and Kennedy appears to be blissfully unaware she’s being used in this way. Willow’s clearly ashamed about, as evident by the look on her face as she puts her clothes back on, and it seems likely when Kennedy does find out she’s being used things aren’t going to end well between these two. And it was Vasuki who told Willow to go to New York in the first place, no surprises there. Willow shouldn’t be dealing with this creature….
…. And Vasuki’s request for Willow not to look into the future? My best bet, her interaction with Vasuki results in Willow turning out the way she does. Vasuki doesn’t want Willow to see this so she keeps communicating with her…
The Xander/Dawn scene was nice I liked their very Scooby and Sunnydale reaction to the tree demons. The whole “Pfft whatever” attitude, and making fun how ludicrous they are was great. But it’ll be interesting to see how Joss wraps up Xander and Dawn’s role as at this point they’re just running away, and one assumes they need to go back to the castle and sort things out?
Gunther/Harth scene was fantastic, I loved all the dialouge between these two, very badass. But again.. back to the looming dark and deathly feel of the issue, something I wasn't really in tune with on my first read. I always understood that the vamps were swimming behind Gunther but I'd never considered the possible message Joss is getting across here.. that we'll never see him alive again.
Loved the call back to Snyder, "Summer you drive like a spaz!" A brief glimmer of humour in an otherwise, terribly sombre arc. Don't get me wrong, I'm really enjoying it and sombre doesn't mean I think it's bad, quite the opposite really. I'm just terribly depressed this arc when I see Buffy in Fray's world, the whole thing seems really, really dark and I'm very anxious to see Buffy/Willow's confrontation.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 5, 2008 6:48:15 GMT -5
I hope you guys will keep spoilers out of your banners. There was a user that used the last pic of issue 17 of dark Wilow in their banner before. I thought;
"Oh, a Dark Willow pic. I haven't seen that before and I've read all the... DAMMIT!"
Not only is it awful to spoil, but it is also not allowed to use pics that aren't on the covers or previews.
I hope to be back here and discuss with you soon.
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witcher
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
Homicidal Bunny
Willow fan forever[Mo0:30]
Posts: 711
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Post by witcher on Sept 5, 2008 9:13:55 GMT -5
This was the best issue of this arc, and I'm definitely enjoying this arc more than TWAG. Xander/Dawn scene was not necessary but it was so funny. Very much in style of Terry Pratchett. Gunther was so kick-ass-from-the-bad-part-of-the-town, I hope they don't kill him. Buffy/Fray talk in the car was not only one of the funniest moments in the season, but it also made me think. Did I didn't read this right, or was Buffy gonna let those people get killed so she can find the nest. Did she go all look at the big picture ( because Buffy from end of season 5 would not to that). And seriously whats up with Willow?? I mean I like some sex magic now and then but her relationship with Saga Vasuki is weird. Not because go how she goes to see her, but because she trusts her so much. Who is that snake lady and what did Willow do for a year? Could she be just playing Saga to get info she wants or is she deep into it as it seems? Can't wait for the next issue. Hope we find out what FDW showed Fray. Also I'm dying to find out what Buffy did that made Will so angry. Maybe when magic ended all magical humans had to be banished from this dimension, and Buffy agreed to that even if that meant banishing her, all the other Slayer, and Willow with them ( also Dawn and other magical human included)? Does anyone else feels that Buffy is somehow being portrayed as the villain in this season?
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rogue11
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 197
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Post by rogue11 on Sept 5, 2008 13:25:02 GMT -5
I usually wait to get the tradepaperback of each arc but i just went ahead and bought the three issues of this arc, looked too good to resist. The second issue was pretty lame and u coul've just got to the point that dark willow is in the future, i would like to see more of her this arc. This issue was really good, dark willow seems different this time, her hair wasn't all black, maybe she's able to control all that power now. And is she immortal? That lizard lady did something to her, willow told her she borker her promise. I hope willow does look when she brings buffy back, that would be so sweet. There's gotta be some big stuff in store for willow otherwise why would we need to see how Willow turns out in the future? I liked that conversation Buffy had with Melaka's sister and how they brought up buffy's aptitude test from high school. I cant wait to see what happens when buffy sees future willow. yeah Dawn and xander aren't really big players in this season, although dawn never really was. She's cool as a centaur but unless she'll stay like that, or some other cool transformation, then what's the point? I wanna see Tara again, even in a flashback would be nice. This issue was satsifying, this series is getting to be better than Angel After the Fall, but thats just my opinion.
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witcher
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
Homicidal Bunny
Willow fan forever[Mo0:30]
Posts: 711
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Post by witcher on Sept 5, 2008 13:38:30 GMT -5
A powerful enemy from Buffy's past confronts the Slayer and Fray in the future, having allied with Fray's greatest foe. Meanwhile, Dawn's gone through another bizarre change.
Well her unless her bizarre change was staying a centaur I didn't see it!!
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Post by wenxina on Sept 5, 2008 13:45:10 GMT -5
Mikey: I understand that Scott posts all the letters. But that's not the issue. The issue was his reply. If it was an old response, it should've been updated before press.
witcher: I think the bizarre change is in reference to her turning into a centaur, hence the past tense. Yes, it's a little delayed in the blurb department. Also, apparently she's gonna stay a centaur a while, according to a response to one of the letters in the Slay the Critics section too. Never thought there'd be so much info in there... most of the letters should be trashed to make room for the more current ones. So I agree with Mikey there.
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Post by Wyndam on Sept 5, 2008 14:10:22 GMT -5
I enjoyed this issue. It was good and better than #17, but #16 still takes the cake for best issue of this arc so far. I won't go into every detail that I liked and disliked, but I do have something I'd like to discuss.
Anyone else notice some similarities between Giles and Buffy in this issue? Giles was always the one to look at the big picture in the past (killing Dawn, killing Ben, killing Spike, etc.), and now we see Buffy doing the exact same thing. I just think this is interesting because Buffy and Giles aren't even speaking right now.
Perhaps the original cease and desist of contact between Buffy and Giles had to deal with Giles doing wet-work behind Buffy's back, but could it have also been the result of some sort of hidden resentment on Buffy's part, which she may not have even realized yet, was that she and Giles are becoming so similar?
This makes me even more excited for the inevitable Buffy/Giles reunion, and perhaps we'll even see this subject brought up in a future issue.
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Sept 5, 2008 16:22:24 GMT -5
willowwonka: are you watching OTH??? how about this 6 premiere??? just perfest i didn't like so much this issue angel was better(like 10000000000000000000000000 better)... i didnt get any surprise about melaka apparent betrayal... hope next issue get better :?:?:? and dawn's mutation??? i really think that she'll be transforming again... the only thing i liked was DW.... just that... next issue will be better... cause DW in rocks
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Post by jessesopher on Sept 5, 2008 16:45:55 GMT -5
I thought it was a strong issue. Not the best, not the worst. It was a great lead-up to the finale, though. I can't wait to see what happens.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 5, 2008 17:00:28 GMT -5
willowwonka: are you watching OTH??? how about this 6 premiere??? just perfest i didn't like so much this issue angel was better(like 10000000000000000000000000 better)... i didnt get any surprise about melaka apparent betrayal... hope next issue get better :?:?:? and dawn's mutation??? i really think that she'll be transforming again... the only thing i liked was DW.... just that... next issue will be better... cause DW in rocks While I really liked AtF #12 too, I don't see how a fair comparison can actually be made. AtF is one long arc... Brian Lynch, who has done a great job so far, has 17 issues to tell his ginormous story. And he's using it all to good effect. This is part 3 of a 4 part arc. Which then fits in a 40 issue long season. I'm not saying that you can't enjoy AtF more, I'm just saying that it's slightly unreasonable to be trying to compare both the books on a monthly basis. As for Dawn's transformations, I think it's been made pretty clear that she WILL be transforming again; the number 3 is the rule, as was revealed in #16.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Sept 5, 2008 17:01:58 GMT -5
Reading the posts again, I saw a lot of people loved the "Woah, Summers you drive like a spaz" line, but I have to criticize it by saying it was... stupid. Melaka has been talking so much futuristic slang that it's hard for even some of us to understand it, then all of the sudden she says a slang word that got tired years and years ago, which was the point in Band Candy. It just read like a different character and didn't fit well.
Sorry, just a stupid rant.
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Post by jessesopher on Sept 5, 2008 17:06:59 GMT -5
Reading the posts again, I saw a lot of people loved the "Woah, Summers you drive like a spaz" line, but I have to criticize it by saying it was... stupid. Melaka has been talking so much futuristic slang that it's hard for even some of us to understand it, then all of the sudden she says a slang word that got tired years and years ago, which was the point in Band Candy. It just read like a different character and didn't fit well. Sorry, just a stupid rant. I kind of agree. But it's not a big deal, it was a fun throwback to Band Candy. lol.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on Sept 5, 2008 17:07:32 GMT -5
Read it, dug it. I think I'm in the minority that likes this arc better than Wolves at the Gate. That must be partly because the new setting has liberated me from the overexposure to the Baby Slayers, and returned the focus to characters I actually care about (Fray and co. included -- Fray shows more personality in one issue than Satsu and Renee have in the whole of their pagetime, as I see it). Love the Dark Willow-Harth team-up (loved them as villains on their own, too, so this gave me a happy, despite my anticipation for Drusilla), love the prospect of Xander/Dawn, love the dark turns in Willow's and Buffy's storylines. Joss seems to be borrowing many ideas from Season 6, but with a Season 2-3 tone, which makes for an interesting amalgamation.
To be fair, I'm not liking Buffy at the moment -- how did she slip so far from the girl who worked for her much-needed money in Season 6 (refusing Spike's "blood money" and refraining from charging the people she saved), and who tormented herself endlessly over one girl's death? Buuuuut I'm confident her misguided behaviour is going somewhere, so I'll wait and see where that is.
Speaking of Buffy, I'm very happy that we finally got textual confirmation that Spike and Angel are the most important men in her life. 'Course, most of us already knew that from Joss's interviews on the subject, but it's still nice to see it on paper.
So I guess Willow is the "closest, most unexpected betrayal"? Maybe?
I think I'm getting back into Season 8 again. Kudos.
ETA: Oh, but I hated the tree-men. "Hated" in the foam-at-the-mouth, pull-hair-off, close-the-window-and-take-deep-breaths way. Argh.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 5, 2008 17:48:42 GMT -5
enisy: You're not alone. I'm loving Time of Your Life too. This arc has been full of meaning, parallels and symbolism. A lot of great literary material to chew over and deep themes to explore. Plus the return to the main characters getting the lion's share of page time is very welcome. Great point about Fray showing more personality in one issue than Satsu or Renee. That's my main complaint with the noob slayers who were given significant page time - for all the space devoted to them, I was largely unmoved by their development.
vampmogs: It was a somber issue on the re-read as it dealt with the very serious shortcomings in two of our main characters, Buffy and Willow. It's interesting how Issue 16 was the most joyous issue of the entire season, in my opinion, while the following two issues have been rife with tragedy. I'm hoping the close to this arc deals with Buffy getting a much needed wake-up call.
Wyndam: Great comparison. Buffy is starting to resemble Giles with her detached, "big picture" philosophy. I think she's losing the mission of saving humanity in her "slayers vs the enemy" war. I say enemy instead of demons because I think the stage is being set for the slayers to be in conflict with humanity itself. Remember Buffy saying she's having trouble feeling connected? Her deciding to let those people die in favor of finding Harth's headquarters is evidence of this. She's obsessing about her war on vampires and demons while becoming detached from her morality and connection to humanity. Buffy's about to be between a rock and a hard place, alienating the people she is meant to protect and lead while directly attacking her enemies. Too much for the slayer army to handle? Oh yeah.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 5, 2008 18:02:24 GMT -5
enisy: You're not alone. I'm loving Time of Your Life too. This arc has been full of meaning, parallels and symbolism. A lot of great literary material to chew over and deep themes to explore. Plus the return to the main characters getting the lion's share of page time is very welcome. Great point about Fray showing more personality in one issue than Satsu or Renee. That's my main complaint with the noob slayers who were given significant page time - for all the space devoted to them, I was largely unmoved by their development. I have to disagree, though. About the bit about Fray showing more attitude in one issue than the other new Slayers. For one, Fray's had an entire miniseries dedicated to her. Most of what we're seeing in this arc is just expanding that. I've also read that some readers who have not read Fray could care less about her appearance. On the other hand, I'm also a pretty big fan of this arc; lots more love for this than WatG. Coz everyone knows that I wasn't that big a fan of that arc, the last two issues being its saving grace.
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chasmatic
Rogue Demon Hunter
In her fruitless kingdom...[Mo0:33]
Posts: 460
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Post by chasmatic on Sept 5, 2008 20:23:01 GMT -5
Reading the posts again, I saw a lot of people loved the "Woah, Summers you drive like a spaz" line, but I have to criticize it by saying it was... stupid. Melaka has been talking so much futuristic slang that it's hard for even some of us to understand it, then all of the sudden she says a slang word that got tired years and years ago, which was the point in Band Candy. It just read like a different character and didn't fit well. Sorry, just a stupid rant. Haha. I totally agree. I loved it because I love Band Candy, but I also think it was dumb and compleeeetely out of place.
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