Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Sept 3, 2009 13:05:34 GMT -5
Just to throw a little 'reality' into this discussion to offer perspective on the age gap between Xander and Dawn I'll offer a few facts about my own previous relationships. I've never let age be an issue as far as the girls that I've dated. All that ever mattered to me is that we worked as a couple and shared a similar lifestyle (by which I mean that I need the girl in question to like rock music and to enjoy going to gigs because I do it A LOT!). I've dated girls much younger than me and also a few a good few years older. The biggest age gap for dating a girl younger than me was when I was 28 dating a girl who was 17, unless you count a girl I saw a few times earlier this year (she was 21 and I'm now 34) although that wasn't really a relationship so much as us having a good time together, I guess. As for dating older women, when I was 19 I was seeing a woman who was 27. The point I'm trying to make is that in my experience age is meaningless. As long as both people involved are of legal age and consenting adults then how many years happen to be between them doesn't matter. I've never had a relationship end because of the age difference. Not once. With Xander and Dawn you have two people who, regardless of their ages, share a hell of a lot in common and have a great deal of love for each other. That's all that matters when you really think about it. Karma. I've not read #28 yet but I'm open to Dawn/Xander and the supposed age gap is totally meaningless.
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Post by Rebecca on Sept 3, 2009 13:24:57 GMT -5
While I don't agree that Xander and Dawn are right for each other, I do think this paints a large target on Dawn.
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Post by butters on Sept 3, 2009 13:58:09 GMT -5
Well i think it would just be bad storytelling is EVERY girl Xander had was a demon or died, sometime he has to get it right or what the point of even caring? Go Xander and Dawn!
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 3, 2009 14:53:13 GMT -5
Well i think it would just be bad storytelling is EVERY girl Xander had was a demon or died, sometime he has to get it right or what the point of even caring? You'd think so, but you'd also think that sometime in the past 12 years, at least ONE romantic pairing in the Buffyverse would have done something other than end in disaster, misery or tears. Yet it hasn't. The fact that it's become predictable to the point of cliche doesn't seem to faze Joss in the slightest.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Sept 3, 2009 15:13:37 GMT -5
Well i think it would just be bad storytelling is EVERY girl Xander had was a demon or died, sometime he has to get it right or what the point of even caring? You'd think so, but you'd also think that sometime in the past 12 years, at least ONE romantic pairing in the Buffyverse would have done something other than end in disaster, misery or tears. Yet it hasn't. The fact that it's become predictable to the point of cliche doesn't seem to faze Joss in the slightest. Well, the series has been running 8 seasons and the characters are mostly all still in their teens/early-to-mid twenties. I don't share this desire to see them all married off, especially since it's a fantasy show about demon-fighters in perilous situations, not a cuddly sitcom like Friends. As for relationships ending in "disaster, misery or tears", are break-ups usually happy events? Personally, I'd rather see drama than two people going "meh, let's just be friends". This supposed Whedon cliché of relationships ending badly seems less a case of bad writing, and more a case of fans getting huffy about their favourite 'ships not lasting forever. Go watch Smallville if you want to see a stale 8-year relationship that doesn't know when to f*** off. (That came off waaay bitchier than it was meant to. Apologies in advance.)
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Post by darkeanarchy on Sept 3, 2009 15:29:29 GMT -5
Go watch Smallville if you want to see a stale 8-year television series that doesn't know when to f*** off. Corrected... He's right though. The method of the relationships ending aside, and I would have to agree that most do end tragically, one thing that you can never describe Joss' character relationships as being is stale. Whether it be how they are as individuals, who they are with or where they get together, the Scoobies have always evolved and that is a large part of what kept me interested for all these years. Got my fingers crossed for Xander and Dawn though. Be good to see at least one solid relationship grow out of the usual ruin that is the Scoobies lives.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 3, 2009 15:30:21 GMT -5
In the real world, relationships sometimes become lifelong. And sometimes they break up without anyone dying, committing self-harm, or being sent to Hell.
And Joss has openly said that he doesn't do happy endings.
It's unrealistic to always have a happy ending. But it's equally unrealistic to always have an unhappy one.
The only Buffyverse 'ships I've ever felt any personal investment in have been Willow/Tara, Wesley/Fred and Buffy/Satsu, so I can't really say whether the cliche is based on huffiness or not. But I certainly see it.
I don't really care much about Xander/Dawn... they can be together or not. But I'm certain the relationship will end with either a death or a serious rift.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Sept 3, 2009 15:46:48 GMT -5
In the real world, relationships sometimes become lifelong. And sometimes they break up without anyone dying, committing self-harm, or being sent to Hell. Sure, relationships can become lifelong. And maybe the Scoobies will be lucky enough to have those relationships one day. But they're still young, and they don't need to be in those relationships right now. That's why I loved the cookie dough speech in "Chosen" so much. Too many shows hastily couple off their characters in the final season because god forbid they end up alone. Buffy was content with leaving it's character a young individual, with the optimistic hope of lifelong love in the future. As for relationships ending in death, self-harm or damnation, it's the Buffyverse, things should be exaggerated, it's a fantasy drama.
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Post by darkeanarchy on Sept 3, 2009 15:48:06 GMT -5
Thinking about it I'd have to say that the Buffy/Angel relationship probably ended in the healthiest way we've seen on either show. Two people, still very much in love and still friends, understanding that their lives have to go in two different directions and dealing with it in the best way they can. Certainly not a happy ending but for once no death, self-harm or being sent to hell involved. Well, okay, Angel went that one time but that technically wasn't what split them up so I'll let that pass. Maybe, at a push, you could include the Oz/Willow situation. Oz left not because of the relationship but because of an issue he had in his life that would prove dangerous to Willow, similar to an alcoholic leaving his or her partner until they get themselves sorted. That relationship didn't end so much as go on hiatus... and then end when Willow realised she liked girls... but again, mere technicality...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 3, 2009 15:53:44 GMT -5
I just get a bit tired of being able to say, whenever two characters strike up a relationship, that it absolutely will not work.
It's like a spoiler that's always in place.
But as I've said before, at this point in the story these characters should be focusing their energies on more pressing matters. From now until the season denouement, around issue #40 or so, it should be all about surviving from one moment to the next and much less about playing footsie.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Sept 3, 2009 15:59:57 GMT -5
I just get a bit tired of being able to say, whenever two characters strike up a relationship, that it absolutely will not work.It's like a spoiler that's always in place. Can't you just enjoy the relationship for what it is, without it being eternal-soulmate-growing-old-together-love? I enjoyed the Buffy/Satsu story even though it didn't last very long. I'm also a big fan of Willow/Kennedy, but I don't think Kennedy is "the One" for Willow. Sometimes characters just have good chemistry and it's fun to see them interact.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 3, 2009 16:21:40 GMT -5
Can't you just enjoy the relationship for what it is, without it being eternal-soulmate-growing-old-together-love? I'm getting less and less able to do so, I must admit. Even at that age, some relationships should last. Note, however, that almost no relationships -- even successful ones, even lifelong ones -- are "eternal soulmate" situations.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 3, 2009 16:42:33 GMT -5
Well, the series has been running 8 seasons and the characters are mostly all still in their teens/early-to-mid twenties. I don't share this desire to see them all married off, especially since it's a fantasy show about demon-fighters in perilous situations, not a cuddly sitcom like Friends. As for relationships ending in "disaster, misery or tears", are break-ups usually happy events? Personally, I'd rather see drama than two people going "meh, let's just be friends". This supposed Whedon cliché of relationships ending badly seems less a case of bad writing, and more a case of fans getting huffy about their favourite 'ships not lasting forever. Go watch Smallville if you want to see a stale 8-year relationship that doesn't know when to f*** off. (That came off waaay bitchier than it was meant to. Apologies in advance.) Bwahaha! Word. The Smallville example is just icing on the cake. I'll second the fact that we're watching relationships where people are in life-or-death situations everyday. They die. It's sad. We should be happy that are favorite main characters are still alive (or have been resurrected - Buffy). As for break-ups, couples at this age break-up all the time. It just happens. It's rare to get married that young nowadays, and especially rare for people who are so clearly not ready for marriage (i.e. Xander). There's always been reasons why the relationships ended which is much better than having a boring, stale relationship that drags on forever just because the writers don't understand what awful drama they're writing.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 3, 2009 16:45:16 GMT -5
I guess I understand now why Xander/Dawn was foreshadowed as a "hook-up." That's all there ever is in the Buffyverse, really. Hook-ups.
Once I recalibrate my thinking to that reality, I should be fine.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 3, 2009 16:47:18 GMT -5
Erm... coz it's possible that Bander fans may actually be happy later on?
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Post by VampSlayer on Sept 3, 2009 16:49:00 GMT -5
Hmm... I wasn;t okay with this. Not at all. ...But I'm slowly getting used to it. Xander needs a woman with him who won't die! Dawn is a main character, and I highly doubt they will kill her off. Dawn has had a crush on Xander, so I'm kinda happy for her. The gang is being hunted, and they might just wanna have something together before their lives go to hell completely.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Sept 3, 2009 17:23:08 GMT -5
I guess I understand now why Xander/Dawn was foreshadowed as a "hook-up." That's all there ever is in the Buffyverse, really. Hook-ups. Once I recalibrate my thinking to that reality, I should be fine. Hardly. All the major relationships in the Buffyverse have been hugely significant to each characters' development, if not intregal. They've actually caused them to change and grow as people, unlike Charmed (where the characters have a rotating series of forgettable boyfriends) or Smallville (where the characters are stuck in a endless rut). The relationships in the Buffyverse actually mean something, just because they don't last forever doesn't mean you should dismiss them as "hook-ups". Look at Angel and Cordelia. Two characters who never managed to sustain (or even start) a healthy romantic relationship, but who wouldn't have become the Champions they are if it weren't for each other. Willow and Oz. Oz gave Willow the confidence and security she needed to come out of her shell, developments she retained after the relationship ended. Buffy and Spike. Spike's feelings for Buffy motivated him to redeem himself and become a self-sacrificing hero. Does the fact that there aren't any "fat grandchildren in the offing" undermine their relationship? There's so many more I can't even be bothered listing them...
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Post by Wyndam on Sept 3, 2009 17:23:20 GMT -5
Erm... coz it's possible that Bander fans may actually be happy later on? Given Buffy's epiphany of sorts in #28 about Xander, that's what I am thinking this hook up with Dawn will ultimately lead to.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 3, 2009 17:31:52 GMT -5
The more I discuss all of this, the less I understand it.
So I'll stop now.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Sept 4, 2009 10:51:23 GMT -5
It's bad enough that we have Dander (he he, still sounds funny) but if we get a Bander in the same arc (or at all) I will be upset. From the beginning I rooted for them to not be together. Because how many times do you see the two best friends, who happen to be the main characters (one of which is the lead), and who happen to be opposite sexes eventually hook up? I'm so sick of it and I found it refreshing that Xander's crush went unrequited and that he moved on. I also found it more relateable. Please no Bander!! This shipper can only take so much. T.T
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