Continuity flaw?

[Skytteflickan88]

Read this from the issue 17 Q&A with Scoot Allie:

38. NileQT87: Fray says that Buffy has been dead for possibly over 200 years (we've heard the 200-year thing before), which means the Fray timeline is circa 2200 A.D. Has Joss decided on anything more specific than that? Like an actual year?

Also, speaking of timelines, we've been told that season 8 starts in late 2004--Dawn's 3 months in college with Kenny means that the series would start in November. The problem is that the Daniel Craig/James Bond reference actually specifically dates the season to the 2006-2007 season. Is there any reason why the authors believe this is 2004 (like, say, if After the Fall influences an eventual date meet-up), or is there any reason to believe this doesn't take place in 2006-2007?

39. Emmie: Since Buffy Season 8 has started off roughly a year and a half after the end of Chosen, can you give us a sense of the 'when' of the season? Someone has said that Buffy's birthday was referenced in interviews as occurring around A Beautiful Sunset - Is this the case? Are there any significant Time Markers you can point out to us lining up in the comic (in what month season 8 started, Buffy's birthday, season summer/winter/spring/fall, holidays passing, etc)?


Finally,Thomas, Nile, and Emmie—I don't think much about what year Season Eight takes place in, or how time is passing. I can't tell you the year of Buffy's death. Season Eight does take place about a year and a half after Season Seven; but I don't necessarily think of Season Seven having been in 2003. If you need to see it like that, and can believe in a world full of Slayers and vampires and demons, would you believe Casino Royale came out in 2004? In Season Six, the kids weren't reacting to 9/11 the way every actual person in America was. Believe me, editing comics, reading comics, if you think too much about what year a comic takes place in, it drives you nuts. Read the stories. Sometimes more time passes between issues than others. Sometimes more time passes within an issue than in others. Everything you need to know to enjoy the story is in there. Timelines kill the spontaneity of a comics story. We recently did a massive timeline for the Hellboy comics, and I couldn't regret it more, because it's hemmed in all sorts of things that never needed for story purposes to be hemmed in.

I kinda think Scott and Joss screwed up. I'm not even sure when James Bond is mentioned in the comic, and I don't know how many years you americans go in high school, but...

On Buffy's tomb stone in season 5, it says thats she died 2001. In season 6, Dawn's a freshman in high school. 18 months pass between season 7 & 8. If we do the math... did Scott and Joss screw up? I'm way too lazy to find out myself.

And like the man said, it's the Buffyverse. We laugh at realism.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Maybe Dawn's just really smart, and skipped a grade. And there are kids who finish high school in the fall, and start college in the spring, so she could've done something similar to that, and finished her junior/senior years in just 1.5 years, instead of the full 2.

But yeah, I'm inclined to agree: continuity error. Or else just a deliberate fudging of the facts (hoping that no one would really notice) in order to better facilitate Dawn's story of her, and the thricewise, and the thricewise's bass-playing roomie...

[Emmie]

Aug 11, 2008 14:35:34 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Maybe Dawn's just really smart, and skipped a grade. And there are kids who finish high school in the fall, and start college in the spring, so she could've done something similar to that, and finished her junior/senior years in just 1.5 years, instead of the full 2.

But yeah, I'm inclined to agree: continuity error. Or else just a deliberate fudging of the facts (hoping that no one would really notice) in order to better facilitate Dawn's story of her, and the thricewise, and the thricewise's bass-playing roomie...

I think it's something that they just haven't bothered to explain. A consistent and specific timeline (something that was built in to the structure of the tv show as it lined up with real time dates) is clearly not being made a priority for the comics. I tried to ask Scott Allie if he could narrow down the events of season 8, giving us some frame of reference, but he responded by basically saying that the story is what's important and not the exact 'when' of events. Yet I still want an answer.

"Hoping that no one would really notice" is definitely not the way to go if you're presenting material to Buffy fans. Know your audience.

I've fanwanked a few explanations for how Dawn was in college before the start of season 8:

1) She automatically graduated due to the tragedy of her hometown being destroyed.

2) She got her GED and had high enough SAT scores that she went to college early (this happens quite often, my cousin went to college a year early in these circumstances).

3) Willow used her witchy computer skills to doctor up a diploma for Dawn and acceptance to Dawn's school of choice.

As for the James Bond reference, it's been explained that its not indicative of season 8 being set in 2006 or post 2006. They just used whatever pop-culture references best fit the story at the time.

Regarding timelines being fudged by Joss Whedon & co., are we really surprised that he's messing with the timeline when he just took Buffy to the future in Issue 16? That whole plan opens up the can of worms called time paradox. God, the Buffy timeline is getting messed up. Season 8 was born from Joss' desire to reconcile Buffy and Fray's worlds and maybe he's managed to write out a scenario that pulls it off brilliantly (I suspect he has). But it's the present-time sequence that is giving me and other fans a headache. When exactly are we?

That's one of the most jarring adjustments coming from the tv to comic medium. Tv shows air to match the dates of the stories. A Thanksgiving episode airs near or on the date of Thanksgiving. With comics, time passes in very different ways. I can understand Scott Allie not wanting to hem in the story and cause problems similar to what happened in Hellboy, but Buffy is the canon continuation of a story that had a set timeline. They should try to stay true to certain logistical rules of the show.

[Skytteflickan88]

I'm okay with Dawn's arrival in season 5 messing up Buffy as we knew it, and Buffy going to the future and messing up the Fray-comics/the future is okay, that makes sense, but I think I have to imagine that Dawn's a prodigy to make sense of the Bond-stuff.

[Emmie]

Aug 11, 2008 15:19:57 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

I'm okay with Dawn's arrival in season 5 messing up Buffy as we knew it, and Buffy going to the future and messing up the Fray-comics/the future is okay, that makes sense, but I think I have to imagine that Dawn's a prodigy to make sense of the Bond-stuff.

The Dawn retcon of the timeline and Buffy going to the future I think will all work out. I'm just thinking that Joss playing with time travel shows he's a certain radical attitude to how time occurs in the Buffyverse. The Bond stuff is just a continuity error Dark Horse admitted is not meant to indicate the year Season 8 is set in.

Dawn doesn't have to be a prodigy to be in college a year early. That happens all the time. Dawn was 16 in season 7 so a year and half later when season 8 begins she would be 17 going on 18. Her time in college was probably only the first few months of the fall semester before she was turned into a giant by Kenny. I think it lines up.

It just takes a bit too much thought on the fans part to figure this out.

[buffysmglover]

I don't think they can do or say anything to make the year on Buffy's tombstone not matter.

[xmadxscientistx]

It's silly for time not to matter. I get that that happens with comics, but man, seems to me that this is at least a little imporant. Part of why I don't follow Angel comics is because I have no idea how it lines up with season 8.

[chasmatic]

Really, I'm just glad that we get more Buffy. I don't entirely care about timing or things lining up. As long as the story is good it doesn't matter. It makes sense to me that Joss would make a continuity error like the James Bond one because Buffy has always been chock-full of relevant pop-culturey goodness. I never even questioned that because it just seemed to naturally make sense in the Buffyverse.

[NileQT87]

dawn is 14 in season 5! meaning, she's a 9th grader in season 5, a 10th grader in season 6, an 11th grader in season 7, a 12th grader in 2003-2004, starts college in september 2004... and imo, season 8 is the 2006-2007 season because i'm a huge continuity nerd who actually has a history of doing the math.

even if this was 2004-2005 (which i'd only be willing to believe if it was stated or it collides in a stated sort of way with ATF), dawn was with kenny a total of 3 months... september to november is 3 months... and november was the month that the series started anyway... and we're already past january (buffy's birthday was referred to as already having happened in an interview concerning anywhere but here) timeline-wise.

dawn doesn't need to skip any grades to be in college in fall 2004... and certainly not for 2006. she was already 14 in season 2000-2001 (and her birthday is likely in late may or early june due to still being 14 at the end of season 5 and being that her 10th birthday was when the summers were still new to sunnydale, dawn didn't have friends and the party was in sunnydale rather than during the summer with hank, which means dawn's birthday is not during summer vacation.).

[NileQT87]

dawn didn't need to skip a grade. she was in 9th grade (that means she was 14) in season 5, not 8th (which would mean she'd have to be 13). dawn even stated the monks dropped k through 8 in her head and wondered if they'd drop 9 in her head, too--which means she's in 9th. non-skipping 1986 babies went to college in the fall of 2004.

and for the record, if you're trying to figure out how old connor is... he's stuck in the same age-group as those born in 1985.

nah, i just prefer to think of it as 2006-2007... and then, no continuity errors at all!

imo, i give what is stated in the show priority over random statements by creators who are basically saying that they don't really care when it takes place or what pop-culture references they use / telling people it doesn't really matter to them... which is the vibe i get from this. thus, priority is given to whatever which is IN the episodes. if, and only if, nothing contradicts it in the show, then the series creators get the second-priority official word.

[Whedon Fan]

My guess is that she got pretty good grades at school and was aloud to go to college early. I got to do it, I left school a year earlier to go to college.

[Skytteflickan88]

I'll just consider the Bond-thing a continuty error and decide that Willow tinkered with Dawn's grades or that Dawn's smart.

Let's say that season 7 ended in Mars-ish 2003(I think Buffy mentioned that usually the hellmouth starts acting up in May, not so early).

Which means that season 8 begins in November-ish 2004. And whoever character that mentioned Bond timetraveled.

[Whedon Fan]

It was Buffy that mentioned Daniel Craig as James Bond. It was a scene from CASINO ROYALE in issue 10 'Anywhere But Here'.

[Angelsgirl]

I can't remember where I read it but one of the producers of the comics stated that Buffy Season 8 was meant to be in the same time-line as Angel...therefore Season 8 of Buffy is set in late 2004 or 2005 as it is now!

Dawn would be old enough to be in college (without skipping a year) as NileQT87 pointed out, she probably has a late May birthday. Plus, remember, they are in Scotland! Not many people here in the UK skip a year...its not cos we are all thick, its just the way the education works. You have to be super super geinus to complete secondary school early. But that is irrelevant seeing as Dawn would be 18 and therefore old enough to have just started college/university as its should be called in Scotland!

[Skytteflickan88]

But angelsgirl, Dawn didn't study in Scotland, did she? Or? Wasn't it an american university?

And about Angel / Buffy having the same time-line... I guess that means quite a few months passed between Not fade away and issue 1, which I don't have a problem with. I actually like that thinking, instead of what I used to think, that what happens in After the Fall happens months before season 8 #1

[Angelsgirl]

After the fall was supposed to be about 6 months after LA went to hell.

I actually can't remember if anything was said about where Dawn went to college??? lol! But then she is still 18, so again she is old enough to attend any college or univeristy.

[Skytteflickan88]

Wasn't it Berkerly? Of course, that could be in Scotland too, I think that's a popular name.

Either way, it doesn't mess up the continuity.

[kimtaro]

Aug 12, 2008 11:21:55 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Wasn't it Berkerly? Of course, that could be in Scotland too, I think that's a popular name.

Either way, it doesn't mess up the continuity.

I don't think they would reference Berkeley specifically if it wasn't the one of San Francisco. It's a pretty popular school to reference.

[hitnrun017]

Aug 12, 2008 6:31:37 GMT -5 NileQT87 said:

dawn didn't need to skip a grade. she was in 9th grade (that means she was 14) in season 5, not 8th (which would mean she'd have to be 13). dawn even stated the monks dropped k through 8 in her head and wondered if they'd drop 9 in her head, too--which means she's in 9th. non-skipping 1986 babies went to college in the fall of 2004.

She was in 8th grade in Season 5. Dawn mentioned that she was a Freshman (9th grade) in the Season 6 episode All the Way. So she would be in 10th grade in Season 7, and since Season 8 is "a year to a year and half after", she should be in 11th or 12th grade.

The whole timing of Season 8 just makes my brain hurt, so I try not to think about it. If Joss had just mentioned how old Buffy was turning in A Beautiful Sunset, a lot of these issues would of been cleared up.

[NileQT87]

all the way is the one that is wrong! she was 14 in season 5. that age ISN'T in 8th grade. that's a 9th grader. if she was 14 and in 8th grade during season 5, she was held back a year, not the other way around.

season 5 - age 14/turning 15 - 9th grade
season 6 - age 15/turning 16 - 10th grade
season 7 - age 16/turning 17 - 11th grade
2003-2004 - age 17/turning 18 - 12th grade (not seen)
2004-2005 - age 18/turning 19 - college freshman (possible candidate for season 8)
2006-2007 - age 20/turning 21 - college junior (other possible candidate for season 8)

as for what month chosen took place in... guess what... it took place in... AUGUST! (and all those slayer students you saw were either in the southern hemisphere or in japan where schools are different 6-day-a-week schedules, different months and activities at schools even on vacations).

why august?

spike returns 19 days after chosen. unleashed happens 1 month after conviction (fred says so). life of the party and cautionary tale of número cinco are locked in october/november due to being holidays (halloween and the mexican el día de los muertos). nina comments about telling her sister she's been a werewolf 4 months in smile time (which would then make smile time her 5th time). in fact, not fade away happens in APRIL because of angel's comment about it being 2 months since cordy died (you're welcome is locked into february due to it being before the smile time teaser which is a snippet one week after valentine's day--though smile time has 4 more victims between the teaser and the rest of the episode--the teaser is in february and the rest is in march!).

in order for that to all work, the hellmouth fell in august 2003. in fact, apocalypse, nowish/storyteller through home/chosen happens in 4 weeks. ats season 4 is the crazy consecutive episode season. air dates go out of the window. the ends of both seasons (and most of ats season 4) are all july/august with conviction happening in early september. storyteller featured late july SUMMER SCHOOL.

first date happens in april, as buffy commented on it being before may.

as for after the fall--angel says that he's hurting from injuries 2 months ago (unless he's not talking about his broken back). one of spike's human kids mentions that no movies have been made for 2 months. spike ATF is 2 months after not fade away (june)... which means that spike ATF seems to meet up pretty cleanly with the start of angel ATF.

also remember that ats season 3 was significantly into the summer as well... birthday took place on cordy's birthday--MAY 22, which was given in the prodigal. holtz mentions there having been 3 weeks between sleep tight and benediction.