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Post by Emmie on Sept 19, 2008 19:41:23 GMT -5
No more one night stands for Buffy please. If she gets involved let it be something significant. ECHO that. I'm sick of the one night stands and casual relationships. *gives huge sigh*
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Sept 19, 2008 21:20:31 GMT -5
I owe karma to El Diablo Robotico because he was so very right about Kennedy and Satsu sharing an issue. Sigh. My ego takes a bruise from all this incorrect speculation on my part. I really should stick to analyzing what is before me, I'm much better at that. Aww, thanks, Ems. That's very nice--especially since we didn't even have a bet on it. (If only people had taken me up on my offer to bet on the #17 mystery characater--with the delay built into the bless/curse function, I'd have been paying out on karma for a week. ) I wouldn't worry about it Emmerz, I thought the same thing. It was implied by the information we knew. Well, no, not really. You took a couple of quotes that didn't really imply anything, one way or another, and leapt to an assumption. Which is fine--that happens--but to use the word "implied" would mean that Joss and Scott deliberately tried to fool us, which just doesn't seem to be the case. And on the Meltzer quote at the end of the interview, well, color me skeptical for the time being. I know what it appears to indicate, but if Buffy and Xander were ever to get together in a romantic way, that would be a pretty major plot development. I have a hard time believing that they'd telegraph it so blatantly in an interview more than a year in advance. Methinks I smell a mis-lead here (a la Drusilla/Evil-ish Future Willow)...
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Post by wenxina on Sept 20, 2008 0:27:44 GMT -5
No more one night stands for Buffy please. If she gets involved let it be something significant. ECHO that. I'm sick of the one night stands and casual relationships. *gives huge sigh* OI! Buffy's had what, two casual relationships? Parker and Satsu. And in both cases, to call them casual flings is an understatement. Buffy fell for Parker's sensitive schtick and was genuinely hurt. And the Satsu affair was way healthier than any of her previous relationships... at least it ended on a good note, with a mutual stepping aside. I don't count Spike as a fling, even though the relationship was almost purely physical in S6... it evolved into something a little more complex in S7. And at any rate, it lasted a lot more than a night. Given that she's still in her mid-twenties at most, I'd say that it's kinda mean that she's being cut off on her casual fling quota. People in their twenties are still busy being promiscuous little ho bags. Cut her some slack. I'm not saying that I'm against a serious relationship for her, and neither am I championing the ho bag camp. All I'm saying is cut her some slack.
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Post by henzINNIT on Sept 20, 2008 3:43:40 GMT -5
I'm 18, and I can already say I've held down a relationship longer than Buffy (or anyone for that matter lol) did over the course of the show. Long term relationships ftl?
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Post by wenxina on Sept 20, 2008 8:10:18 GMT -5
Hey! Good for you, and again, not against the long-term relationships. Just saying let's not be judgmental should Buffy decide to "explore" more.
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Post by henzINNIT on Sept 20, 2008 12:52:00 GMT -5
lol I was talking more about Joss's views than yours with that post. I agree Buffy should explore if she likes. She's definately the character that needs to learn more about herself and relationships. I think it's a shame though that Joss doesn't like representing the idea that someone could actually be with someone for more than a couple of years without major trouble.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 20, 2008 13:04:05 GMT -5
Occupational hazard of either being a Scooby, or dating a Scooby, I guess. Well, Spike and Dru... those were a match made in heaven, no? Lasted a century or more. And Anya and Xander... technically were kinda together for about 4 or so seasons...
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
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Post by Enisy on Sept 20, 2008 13:48:16 GMT -5
Longest-running one is Angel/Darla, right, with its 200 years or so? xD
But seriously, I like that about Whedon shows. Buffy is one of the most active fandoms in the fanfiction/art/vidding department because Joss keeps sabotaging the relationships, not in spite of it.
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Post by henzINNIT on Sept 21, 2008 6:23:41 GMT -5
Buffy is one of the most active fandoms in the fanfiction/art/vidding department because Joss keeps sabotaging the relationships, not in spite of it. You have a point there. Random observation, but I think I might actually like season 8 once it's done. lol Only what, another year or so to wait? hehe
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
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Post by Enisy on Sept 22, 2008 14:35:32 GMT -5
Aaaaaaaaaaaand update! Washington D.C.: In your recent MTV comments,you made a statement about your upcoming Buffy arc. "Buffy and Xander don't need me for a new twist," Meltzer said. "You love the characters already, because they're terrific. My job isn't to show you what's not there, but what you've always seen before but never thought was there. I'm going to try my best not to screw it up too badly." Some fans are reading into it that there is a Buffy/Xander romantic pairing coming. Are these fans reading into your comments more than they should and were Buffy and Xander's names used as random examples? Also,what are your thoughts on past relationships such as Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike? Brad Meltzer: It was totally random. I could've just as easily said Willow and Buffy or any other 2 that you want to put together. W00t. I still prefer Xander/Dawn as a concept. (And I just love how he flatly ignored the other 'shippy question. Smart man.)
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Post by Emmie on Sept 22, 2008 17:22:40 GMT -5
OI! Buffy's had what, two casual relationships? Parker and Satsu. And in both cases, to call them casual flings is an understatement. Buffy fell for Parker's sensitive schtick and was genuinely hurt. And the Satsu affair was way healthier than any of her previous relationships... at least it ended on a good note, with a mutual stepping aside. I don't count Spike as a fling, even though the relationship was almost purely physical in S6... it evolved into something a little more complex in S7. And at any rate, it lasted a lot more than a night. I actually don't consider Spike a serious relationship. Something that involves keeping it secret from your friends is a tawdry, casual relationship. I'd say Spike/Buffy developed into something more in season 7, but like Buffy said "we were never close" til that night in Touched. And though I kept waiting for it to become more throughout that whole season, even I can't call what they had together in season 7 "dating" - they definitely weren't together for that whole year. When I say casual relationship/fling, I'm talking about the absence of emotional intimacy and a sense of the long term where there is a future in the offing. The only two relationships that qualify to me were with Angel and Riley. So to me, Buffy hasn't had a serious relationship since Into the Woods. So going on 4 and a half Buffyverse years now. That's a long time and I don't think "experimenting" is ideal for the Buffster when she has trouble letting people get close to her emotionally. She needs to be able to open up and experimenting with Satsu or even casually dating someone new isn't healthy to me when she has trouble with intimacy. I see it as her shutting down and failing to make new attachments in her life.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Sept 22, 2008 17:40:16 GMT -5
I don't get how you guys assess those things. Just because Spike/Buffy wasn't as "traditional" as Angel/Buffy and Riley/Buffy in its expressions doesn't make it any less serious. In fact, Joss has stated that Spike was just as important to Buffy as Angel, and more important to her than Riley.
And Spike called her on it. Wasn't true.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 22, 2008 17:53:48 GMT -5
I don't get how you guys assess those things. Just because Spike/Buffy wasn't as "traditional" as Angel/Buffy and Riley/Buffy in its expressions doesn't make it any less serious. In fact, Joss has stated that Spike was just as important to Buffy as Angel, and more important to her than Riley. And Spike called her on it. Wasn't true. I think the main reasons to why people rather see Spike/Buffy as fling than a relationship(I do too) is because of the pain. Buffy didn't want to like/need/desire Spike in season 6. Spike was an aweful person, who could blame her. She also wasn't herself. He used/was there for her/got used when she was weak. So it's easy to say "Stable happy Buffy would never have done that. She just needed a fix." even tough Spike was a good supportive (but corrupting) listener. That's why I don't like to compare Riley/Buffy & Buffy/Angel, even tough I have to say that Buffy learned more from and was more affected by Spike than Riley. I just don't like souless Spike or season 6 Buffy. They were so sad to see together. And not sweet-sad, but gutwrenching sad. Not to nock Spuffy fans, but they have to admit, that was mainly a messed up relationship. They had some sweet moments, but not enough to make me a fan. I guess I see this relationship as half-empty. I'm not objective, because I think that evil bastard should have been offed in season 4 when he was helpless. EDIT- So to me, Buffy hasn't had a serious relationship since Into the Woods. So going on 4 and a half Buffyverse years now. That's a long time and I don't think "experimenting" is ideal for the Buffster when she has trouble letting people get close to her emotionally. She needs to be able to open up and experimenting with Satsu or even casually dating someone new isn't healthy to me when she has trouble with intimacy. I see it as her shutting down and failing to make new attachments in her life. I think the opposite. Her first true love turned evil, killed people, and had a deep effect on her for three years, and that love lingers until today. Then there was Riley, who left her because she wasn't commited enough. Then there was Spike. The guy who she did dirty things with, who she kept a secret and who tried to rape her. I think it's almost too soon for her to get emotionally AND sexually involved with someone. Why not have fun, connect and relax? No need to finish baking yet. After all, the kneading process was pretty rough.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Sept 22, 2008 18:06:15 GMT -5
Oh, it's fine if you don't like it; to each their own. I just don't get how people can compare "I just feel like something's missing" Riley/Buffy to roller-coaster Spike/Buffy with its fire symbolism and its natural rapport and its epic soul quests, and claim there was less importance or less emotional investment in the case of the latter. I mean, I dislike Angel/Cordelia, but I would never claim that Angel wasn't in love with Cordelia -- and the above comparison seems equally unfathomable to me. Last episode in the series? Angel and Spike. "Most important men in Buffy's life", according to that Joss interview? Angel and Spike. Threesome fantasy? Angel and Spike. Riley is just not on the same level.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 22, 2008 18:10:42 GMT -5
Oh, it's fine if you don't like it; to each their own. I just don't get how people can compare "I just feel like something's missing" Riley/Buffy to roller-coaster Spike/Buffy with its fire symbolism and its natural rapport and its epic soul quests, and claim there was less importance or less emotional investment in the case of the latter. I mean, I dislike Angel/Cordelia, but I would never claim that Angel wasn't in love with Cordelia -- and the above comparison seems equally unfathomable to me. It could be that Buffy&Angel, Buffy&Riley wanted a relationship, while Buffy didn't want one with Spike. She used him as a shoulder to cry on, punching bag and sex toy, but she never wanted him as a boyfriend. That's mainly why I can't see it as a romantic relationship. But they definitly shared something, wheter Buffy liked it or not. I didn't get what you were saying about Cordy/Angel. Did you mean that we are denying something about Spuffy? Love?
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Sept 22, 2008 18:26:23 GMT -5
Oh, arguable. Even in Season 6, when she was not in a state to pursue a romantic relationship with anyone, she had the occasional traditional romantic fantasy of him; dreamt of him joining her in bed, kissing her shoulder, comforting her. So, at the very least subconsciously, there was a desire for something more there. In Season 7, this probably sums it up: "I mean, sometimes that's how people relate. Being mean to each other. Even... mortal enemies. Then with the... and that leads to no good -- absolutely no good! And much confusion. And then it's over -- absolutely, seriously, definitely over -- and that's confusing, too -- the over part -- which it is! Over. So... maybe." To say she didn't want a relationship with Spike is to oversimplify her very complex feelings towards the prospect and towards him. The "most important shot in the show", according to Joss, is the one that "shows... the mystery of their relationship". That tells you everything you need to know. Nah. Just saying that your dislike of a relationship is no reason to deny objective (or as good as) facts about it. I'm not denying Angel's love for Cordelia on the grounds of my dislike for the 'ship, so I kinda expect people not to deny Spike/Buffy's importance on the grounds of their dislike for it. If that made any sense.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 22, 2008 18:38:40 GMT -5
So to me, Buffy hasn't had a serious relationship since Into the Woods. So going on 4 and a half Buffyverse years now. That's a long time and I don't think "experimenting" is ideal for the Buffster when she has trouble letting people get close to her emotionally. She needs to be able to open up and experimenting with Satsu or even casually dating someone new isn't healthy to me when she has trouble with intimacy. I see it as her shutting down and failing to make new attachments in her life. How is being open to new avenues for a human connection any different from what you're championing? Satsu was something she had never had before, a lesbian experience. While you may write it off as just plain experimentation, I'll say it was her actually opening up to new experiences, as well as letting other people in. The fact that she let Satsu do "things" to her sounds like she actually trusted Satsu. And here's what got me, and I'll admit it's possibly just Jeanty's art, but I've not seen Buffy as at peace as in #11 in a long time now. And forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't most relationships start with casual dating anyway? I ask simply because my first (and current) relationship kinda skipped all the usual landmarks of the usual relationships.
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Sept 22, 2008 18:41:27 GMT -5
I've also gotten the impression, from Allie's comments on the subject, that we haven't seen the end of Buffy/Satsu yet. Maybe she was Buffy's date in New York?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 22, 2008 18:41:40 GMT -5
Nah. Just saying that your dislike of a relationship is no reason to deny objective (or as good as) facts about it. I'm not denying Angel's love for Cordelia on the grounds of my dislike for the 'ship, so I kinda expect people not to deny Spike/Buffy's importance on the grounds of their dislike for it. If that made any sense. Well it's all about how you look at the glass and what you call it. Relationship-smachionship, important-slorthant, serious-smeriosh. It's weird how most arguing that seems to go on in here is about how we define expressions and words. Remember Mikey and we others going on and on about the femininity of the color pink?
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Enisy on Sept 22, 2008 18:46:13 GMT -5
Nah, I missed that debate, for better or for worse. xD But yeah, I get what you mean. And I'm not normally so defensive/touchy/shirty, it's just that, though Spike/Buffy fans have the biggest online presence in places like LiveJournal or Fanfiction.Net or FanForum or DarkHorse, they seem to be a minority on SlayAlive, so I often feel like I have to overcompensate.
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