|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 6, 2009 21:49:02 GMT -5
The difference between how Angel is to Buffy - no unifying vision. Kelley is writing her story separate from Lynch. Lynch is writing it separate from Kelley. They aren't trying to write stories that have shared themes at all, nor are part of a greater arc. That's the difference between one story and a bunch of different mini-series. They are different philosophies for the story. Aftermath deals with and continues plots, events, storylines that were all set up in After the Fall. Plus, we haven't read Aftermath yet, so we can't say that there are no shared themes. Kelley said in her recent interview that Angel has to deal with fighting demons in the spotlight. If that is not a shared theme, then what is? It is not like Kelley is writing a completely unrelated story. If that was happening, then Aftermath wouldn't be labeled #18+. It is all one story, with multiple arcs, not a bunch of mini-series, just like Season 8.
|
|
Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
|
Post by Malsad on Feb 6, 2009 21:56:39 GMT -5
indeed
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 22:00:01 GMT -5
The difference between how Angel is to Buffy - no unifying vision. Kelley is writing her story separate from Lynch. Lynch is writing it separate from Kelley. They aren't trying to write stories that have shared themes at all, nor are part of a greater arc. That's the difference between one story and a bunch of different mini-series. They are different philosophies for the story. Aftermath deals with and continues plots, events, storylines that were all set up in After the Fall. Plus, we haven't read Aftermath yet, so we can't say that there are no shared themes. Kelley said in her recent interview that Angel has to deal with fighting demons in the spotlight. If that is not a shared theme, then what is? It is not like Kelley is writing a completely unrelated story. If that was happening, then Aftermath wouldn't be labeled #18+. It is all one story, with multiple arcs, not a bunch of mini-series, just like Season 8. Wyn, that's sharing plot constraints, not themes. Themes in Season 8 deal with exploring the subjectivity of reality and how the truth of the situation can be known at multiple levels. The themes aren't specific to only being in Angel's world, but translate to real-life experiences and in part, share a lesson about the real world through the fictional story. What you're talking about is not a shared theme, but a shared plot constraint made by the fictional universe. Because the stories are being written by different authors not working in conjunction, they won't be dealing with and expounding on the same themes. Season 8 is plotted and broken by one man leading a group of different writers. If Lynch were serving as Exec Producer of the Angel stories, I'd more readily accept that it's form were conjoined by one vision. But he's not doing that.
|
|
Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
|
Post by Malsad on Feb 6, 2009 22:06:17 GMT -5
and for some reason i doubt joss would let him do that but i would enjoy it
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 6, 2009 22:23:16 GMT -5
Aftermath deals with and continues plots, events, storylines that were all set up in After the Fall. Plus, we haven't read Aftermath yet, so we can't say that there are no shared themes. Kelley said in her recent interview that Angel has to deal with fighting demons in the spotlight. If that is not a shared theme, then what is? It is not like Kelley is writing a completely unrelated story. If that was happening, then Aftermath wouldn't be labeled #18+. It is all one story, with multiple arcs, not a bunch of mini-series, just like Season 8. Wyn, that's sharing plot constraints, not themes. Themes in Season 8 deal with exploring the subjectivity of reality and how the truth of the situation can be known at multiple levels. The themes aren't specific to only being in Angel's world, but translate to real-life experiences and in part, share a lesson about the real world through the fictional story. What you're talking about is not a shared theme, but a shared plot constraint made by the fictional universe. Because the stories are being written by different authors not working in conjunction, they won't be dealing with and expounding on the same themes. Season 8 is plotted and broken by one man leading a group of different writers. If Lynch were serving as Exec Producer of the Angel stories, I'd more readily accept that it's form were conjoined by one vision. But he's not doing that. Okay, but does a series really need an overarching theme to be worthwhile or even good? Does some sort of theme need to be shoehorned into the plot, just cuz? Does it really need one to work? When it comes to Angel, I really just care about the characters and how their stories progress. If I don't learn a life lesson from it, well I will survive. I am always more interested in the story and what the characters do next and how they handle a new situation than trying to attribute the story to some grand overaching theme. Part of the reason I enjoy Angel more than Buffy anyway was because of the characters and their themes, because, at least with Wesley and Angel, I was always able to identify more with their characters than anyone else. I guess I am just more of a character driven man than a grand scheme kinda guy. As long as the characters continue to do what they do best, I will always be satisfied. I don't need it to go any deeper than that.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 22:34:57 GMT -5
Wyn, for me the 'verse is a mixture of both. Amazing character moments and deep themes that make you think. I'm upset that the core of the 'verse (the long arcs connected by one vision) is being set aside. A part of ANGEL's identity and what elevated the show is being lost.
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 6, 2009 22:47:12 GMT -5
Wyn, for me the 'verse is a mixture of both. Amazing character moments and deep themes that make you think. I'm upset that the core of the 'verse (the long arcs connected by one vision) is being set aside. A part of ANGEL's identity and what elevated the show is being lost. But has the story suffered because of it? Really? If you go in hoping there is some huge theme that connects every detail in some way that relates to real-life, then sure, disappointment will ensue. In my opinion though, as long as the story has been good and entertaining (which it has been), then why criticize it for not having said theme? For me, Angel's story post-NFA has always and will always be Angel dealing with the consequences of sending L.A. to hell, and finding his way back to the man he was before working for Wolfram & Hart. That's all I need, really: Angel saving lives and finding his own way, making many mistakes in the process, but getting the job done in the end.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 23:14:25 GMT -5
Wyn, for me the 'verse is a mixture of both. Amazing character moments and deep themes that make you think. I'm upset that the core of the 'verse (the long arcs connected by one vision) is being set aside. A part of ANGEL's identity and what elevated the show is being lost. But has the story suffered because of it? Really? If you go in hoping there is some huge theme that connects every detail in some way that relates to real-life, then sure, disappointment will ensue. In my opinion though, as long as the story has been good and entertaining (which it has been), then why criticize it for not having said theme? For me, Angel's story post-NFA has always and will always be Angel dealing with the consequences of sending L.A. to hell, and finding his way back to the man he was before working for Wolfram & Hart. That's all I need, really: Angel saving lives and finding his own way, making many mistakes in the process, but getting the job done in the end. Wyn, I'm glad the lack is not bothering you. But that's not the case for every reader. And it wasn't a question of a good plot and good character moments. But what sets the Buffyverse apart for me is that it goes so much deeper than that with the themes and explorations of greater meaning. The kind of stuff that inspires Slayage academic papers and meta-analysis, rather than just the surface analysis of the plot. The Buffyverse has always had layers of meaning, rich and deep. I care about that. I think it's part of what makes it great. Plus the unity of the journey. That plots are set years ahead of time and still find a huge payoff - how is this possible with no unifying vision? I don't think it is possible. It's very exciting to have all these different stories, but some of us are worried that it's going to ultimately degenerate the Angel side of the 'verse into the contradictory nature of Marvel or DC.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 0:37:44 GMT -5
That's it from me for this thread, hopefully Pat will get back to posting soon so I'm not the only here that has to defend the Angel comics. Dude, I love you for this. We're kindred souls. We should make babies, except in a heterosexual way. But yeah. For me, canon is a non-issue. It's simple. A. It's been stated that this is the official Angel story. B. Kelley said that Joss--listen, not Joss's offices, Joss--approves. The fact that she didn't work directly with Joss means absolutely nothing. Joss simply doesn't have the time, which is why he gave Brian Lynch the go ahead to do it in the first place. C. Kelley said it counts, wouldn't have said it if she knew it didn't. D. Joss certainly isn't going to do more Angel. If he approves, if this counts, if this is the official story, if Joss isn't going to do more Angel... the what in the world could ever contradict these books? IDW may not have an executive producer on the Angel comics, but neither does any other comic series other than Buffy. This is the way comics work. Writers come and go, editors make sure everything makes sense. Just look at RUNAWAYS. Hell, look at any comic. So far, they've never steered us wrong, and with the sheer awesomeness of today's panel, don't expect them to any time soon. People will certainly disagree, and that is 100% fine. But nothing could ever convince me that what IDW is doing with Angel isn't the official story.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 0:39:19 GMT -5
And why are we assuming the series won't share themes? It's still Angel. Of course it will share themes.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 7, 2009 1:48:02 GMT -5
IDW may not have an executive producer on the Angel comics, but neither does any other comic series other than Buffy. This is the way comics work. Writers come and go, editors make sure everything makes sense. Just look at RUNAWAYS. Hell, look at any comic. So far, they've never steered us wrong, and with the sheer awesomeness of today's panel, don't expect them to any time soon. The point you italicized is exactly why people like me, Xi and Paul are worried. Do look at the way other comics work where continuity gets shat on and rebooted and contradicted and reimagined by every new writer. I keep saying this phrase again and again and no one has really adequately shown why it suddenly doesn't matter - unifying vision. Now if there was a David Greenwalt, Tim Minear or David Fury-type person serving to unify the Angel story then I wouldn't be criticizing this. I want the story tight. I want it connecting in ways that years from now I'll go back and re-read only to find totally brand new connections I'd never seen before. This is true of BtVS and AtS. Editors make sure it makes sense. And that's setting the bar at the bare minimum there. Making sense. I'm talking about an inspiring long-term story. The point is that many of us fans don't want the Angelverse to be splintered and fractured all to hell the way Marvel and DC comics happen. And as Paul has stated before, you have to wade through the shite in order to find the actual gold. Funnily enough, this discussion didn't really come about as much because of the canon argument. The negative reaction comes more from concern that this is a trend of further splintering of the main story. Turning and turning in the widening gyre, the falcon cannot hear the falconer... And as for the story being Angel meaning that it's enough to have shared themes, I'm glad those shared themes will be so well-thought out that the writers will just happily stumble upon them as they write their separate stories. Who knew it was so easy? Sidebar: Pat, why do you keep double-posting recently? I keep noticing you doing this on here and at DH.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 1:56:07 GMT -5
Nah, I disagree. With Ryall as editor, with Lynch popping up as often as he does, if they keep choosing writers of the Lynch and Armstrong calibur, there's no way it will be anything less than a unified vision. I mean, if you're worried about there not being connections you can trace because of there not being an Executive Producer, look no further than Buffy #3. Warren. Even having an Exec Producer can't help some of this stuff from happening. But with the care the IDW team has for the title, this is reallllly a non-issue, for me at least.
And double posting? Do you mean the same post twice? Because I don't think I did that, unless you deleted the thing. Or posting something and then adding something later? It's not conscious, but to be honest I don't really think about it. It's easier to add another separate thought in another separate post. But I wouldn't say "recently," it's something I always do, I think.
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 7, 2009 1:56:46 GMT -5
IDW may not have an executive producer on the Angel comics, but neither does any other comic series other than Buffy. This is the way comics work. Writers come and go, editors make sure everything makes sense. Just look at RUNAWAYS. Hell, look at any comic. So far, they've never steered us wrong, and with the sheer awesomeness of today's panel, don't expect them to any time soon. The point you italicized is exactly why people like me, Xi and Paul are worried. Do look at the way other comics work where continuity gets shat on and rebooted and contradicted and reimagined by every new writer. I keep saying this phrase again and again and no one has really adequately shown why it suddenly doesn't matter - unifying vision. Now if there was a David Greenwalt, Tim Minear or David Fury-type person serving to unify the Angel story then I wouldn't be criticizing this. I want the story tight. I want it connecting in ways that years from now I'll go back and re-read only to find totally brand new connections I'd never seen before. This is true of BtVS and AtS. The point is that many of us fans don't want the Angelverse to be splintered and fractured all to hell the way Marvel and DC comics happen. And as Paul has stated before, you have to wade through the shite in order to find the actual gold. But this isn't happening yet, and most likely won't happen. IDW isn't Marvel or DC, so why are they being compared to them when A) the Angelverse isn't being "splintered and fractured all to hell," it is being expanded to tell a larger story, and B) the continuity isn't being "shat on and rebooted and contradicted and reimagined by every new writer," there is no evidence of this, or any evidence that this is going to happen. I really don't understand the problem here. It seems like you all are assuming this horrible stuff is happening, when nothing has even happened yet. It is like preparing for a hurricane that may never come. Angel is an ongoing series that is just being expanded so the story can be deepened and told from more than one angle.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 2:00:34 GMT -5
Wyn, you just summed up what I had in my head and couldn't articulate. This thread is bumming me out a bit, as threads like this often do, so I'm gonna steer as clear of this thread for now at least. Still on my Comic Con high, so I'm gonna take that and be happy. We've got new stories coming, and they're gonna be great.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 2:02:16 GMT -5
Bwagl-haggar.
(Just to keep up the trend. Maybe I can do a recurring joke where each time I post, I make a second post that follows my actual post, but the second one will never make sense... or will make too much sense to comprehend)
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 7, 2009 2:09:36 GMT -5
Guys, I think it was made pretty clear that every concern expressed by people in this thread that you're objecting to was worried speculation about the direction this trend could take us. Some of it already has some upsetting consequences that have occurred, but most of it is of course based on something that hasn't happened.
It's speculation. By definition of course it hasn't happened yet. And frankly, this thread has been majorly bumming me out too. I made it so as not to blast in the official discussion thread for Spike's ongoing series (of which I'm the most confident I will enjoy as S:AtF is in my top 3 arcs of any of the comics released in the past 2 years). But it's basically been the case that I moved the negative speculation out of that thread where Paul, Xi and I could articulate our thoughts and I've been defending my viewpoint ever since. So yeah, not fun for me either.
I'm not the only one comparing them to Marvel and DC. Pat brought up the point that this is how every comic other than Buffy is run. That's the point I'm making - canon continuity in every other comic is the most problematic thing ever. Wyn, you as a Star Wars fan must know this firsthand. If you continue with this evolution of loosely affiliate stories with no unifying creative force directing it (a Greenwalt, Minear, Fury figure), can you honestly say that the entropic nature of the comics won't spell a single continuity's failure without a unifying force? And sorry, but I don't think Ryall is really the figure one is looking for here. I wish Lynch would take this role, but his limited involvement in Aftermath spells out pretty clearly that he's not even de facto headlining the ANGEL side at IDW.
The philosophy for producing Angel more resembles the universes of Marvel and DC as more time goes by. The philosophy for how Buffy is produced is staying as true to the original format as it can in terms of the creative team's structure dynamic, seasonal format and the creator's involved.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 2:15:14 GMT -5
can you honestly say that the entropic nature of the comics won't spell a single contuity's failure without a unifying force? Do I think we'll get more stuff like vampires shaving? Yeah, of course. (Though even the show gave us two different angles on that). That stuff is bound to happen. But I sincerely, honestly doubt that there will be any huge or even semi-big continuity errors. Nothing the calibur of "Whoops, this character was dead?" This stuff happens in comic books in general, executive producer or no... as we witnessed in the Buffy book. That's true, Emmie, about the structure. I guess it comes down to what format, what team, and what book you have more confidence in. For me? I love 'em both. But when it comes to which creative team I have the most confidence in... it's absolutely no question.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 7, 2009 2:22:48 GMT -5
Continuity is about more than vampire's shaving. Xi (who unfortunately has no interest in articulating his thoughts on this topic, not interested in this fight) has some pretty interesting points on how AtF is already out of continuity with Season 8. I was actually arguing against it, but there certainly is some weight behind his argument.
I think our jersies have been picked out based on what show we most enjoyed and what parts of the story we each found most interesting. For me, I prefer the language and thematic resonance of Whedon's works. For you, it's Lynch.
Ya wanna know what really makes me mad though, the fact that we now have different publishing houses who actually have a grudge against each other. Yeah, exactly. And I get that you're not Allie's biggest fan, but you even posted snark about him in your review. That's really helping to bridge the divide between the two houses. A plague on both your houses. IDW Vamps vs. DH Slayers. I don't like this situation.
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 7, 2009 2:25:30 GMT -5
I'm not the only one comparing them to Marvel and DC. Pat brought up the point that this is how every comic other than Buffy is run. That's the point I'm making - canon continuity in every other comic is the most problematic thing ever. Wyn, you as a Star Wars fan must know this firsthand. If you continue with this evolution of loosely affiliate stories with no unifying creative force directing it (a Greenwalt, Minear, Fury figure), can you honestly say that the entropic nature of the comics won't spell a single contuity's failure without a unifying force? And sorry, but I don't think Ryall is really the figure one is looking for here. I was actually going to bring up the Star Wars canon, as I think (in a good way), that is the direction that Angel canon is heading. Star Wars canon used to be complicated, it used to be debated like the Bill of Rights first was, it used to make people mad with rage, but it has since moved from that into a very concise, thorough system, that I think the Angel canon will one day resemble. Today, when a new Star Wars book, comic, video game, whatever, is released, it is considered canon. There are a few exceptions, of course (like kids books), but all the major properties like novels (New Jedi Order seres), comic series (like Dark Horse's main 3 titles: Legacy, Knights of the Old Republic, and Dark Times), and then games like The Force Unleashed, all have to go through extensive editing and review, to make sure it works in the canon. George Lucas does his quick stamp of approval for major plot developments, but that is all of his involvement in the Expanded Universe (although he is currently executive producing the new The Clone Wars TV show, which is cool). Basically, if the new property fits into the timeline, doesn't contradict past events, etc., it is considered canon. Sure, plot holes do crop up sometimes, but the films had plenty of plot holes themselves, as did Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. I am sure we could each make a giant list about the numerous plot holes in Season 7 and Season 4, respectively. I would love to see Angel reach this point one day, because it is working very well for the Star Wars universe. Since Joss won't be giving his input on the series anymore, I think this is a necessary step in the long run so that fans can stop these maddening debates about what is official and what isn't. Sometimes sticking to old ideals about canon just doesn't continue to work, but getting past them is something I am not sure this fandom will ever be able to do. I think, for now, Brian has definitely earned our trust (imo). But enough of that tangent, I think that'll be it for me and this thread! For realsies this time too, I broke my initial promise what, 10 times by now?
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 2:37:20 GMT -5
A) Continuity is far more than vampires shaving... but I only used the example to say that THOSE kinds of errors are expected. That I, for one, don't expect large continuity errors. B) I don't know, I thought both you, Wyndam, and I were wearing double sided jerseys until very very recently. Do I think the recent Buffy issues have been weaker than usual? Yeah (less so #22, which I actually really liked), but so do most fans. I still love the series, and praise it nearly every time I write about it. I don't think about who I like better between Lynch or Whedon, because both are my favorite writers. I've been reading and watching Whedon for far longer, and his body of work is much larger, so Joss is definitely my main interest as a reader. But Joss can't write everything with Buffy, and I think that Brian Lynch gets the characters in a way that a lot--most--of the other writers don't. Recently, he's become my favorite writer, and "After the Fall" my favorite book, yes, but that doesn't mean that Joss is now second to him, or vice-versa. Joss's verse is my heart, and I'm just glad that A) Joss is continuing working on Buffy and that B) he has a writer as talented as Brian working on Angel. Why choose when you can have both? 3) Yeah, I switched it up. About my blog, thanks for reading. Buuuuuut I don't really think I was snarky about Allie. I even mentioned that he apologized when fans caught on to what he said about Angel. My review actually preempted any gossip that might have come out of hearsay, and I find it pretty weird that the only comment I get about it is actually how it doesn't help bridge this "divide," which is more in the minds of fans than it is in the actual publishing companies. Lynch went out of his way to say how much he loves the Buffy book, and Allie apologized profusely for everything he said about Angel. There is no divide, no plague, no melodrama, no versus, no situation to dislike. Just stuff that happened in the past, and fans that may or may not prefer one title to another. It's normal. But enough of that tangent, I think that'll be it for me and this thread! For realsies this time too, I broke my initial promise what, 10 times by now? Ohhhh how I wish I would have followed through with my promise to do the same.
|
|