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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 11, 2008 2:48:04 GMT -5
My take is that I assumed he was talking about the chip removal. But when it was revealed that he wanted his soul back...I thought it was clever on Joss' part.
I'm no Spike fan but I will say there is a difference between wanting your soul out of love, and having yours forced on you. A few of the things he said when speaking to both Clem and the demon can be taken in different ways. He really is what he once was...a souled creature. Just not human is all.
Spike is not better than Angel though. Angel has been through so much. Also, I'm sure that if Angel could, he would do away with Angelus! If anyone should ever get Shanshu, it better be Angel. I think he deserves it most. Spike has not suffered like Angel has. Spike sure as hell did get over tormenting and killing people so quickly!! Or maybe he just doesn't care.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 11, 2008 6:26:33 GMT -5
Spike seeking his soul out doesn't make him a better man anyway, it makes him a better vampire lol. There's no contest on who's more of a hero if we're talking ensouled Angel and Spike. Spike's a good guy of course, but Angel is fucking insane with his sacrifice.
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lee
Common Vampire
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Post by lee on Jan 11, 2008 9:08:31 GMT -5
Whether he got his soul intentionally or not I think I would've liked a heads up before season 7 when he did all the "I got my soul back for you Buffy" stuff. I was like "What!? No he didn't!" And I only felt that way because it was the first I heard of such a thing.
And, it certainly doesn't make him better than Angel. While I think Angel likes to be tortured - and sometimes does so unnecessarrily - he loved Buffy with a soul originally and never got a chance to have a real relationship with her including all the physical stuff that came along with it. That's why their story is the more heartbreaking and beautiful one. Because they wanted each other so badly and could never have each other. God, that sucks. And Angel left his one and only love - hurting them both - because it was the right thing to do. He was completely unselfish about it. And, you know, he was getting his own show. Spike might have got his soul for Buffy - maybe - but he also did so for himself.
Oh, and how does giving Buffy what she deserves = Spike getting his soul back? How is that the immediate assumption? Hello? As late as OMWF he was torn between wanting Buffy dead and wanting her alive. He's like split personality guy because he was evil. Let's face it, if Spike had never been chipped he would've still been out killing and terrorizing and he would certainly never think about loving the Slayer.
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Kratos
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[Mo0:15]
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Post by Kratos on Jan 13, 2008 7:38:01 GMT -5
Spike is not better than Angel though. Angel has been through so much. Also, I'm sure that if Angel could, he would do away with Angelus! If anyone should ever get Shanshu, it better be Angel. I think he deserves it most. Spike has not suffered like Angel has. Spike sure as hell did get over tormenting and killing people so quickly!! Or maybe he just doesn't care. I disagree, i don't think the shanshu is about deserving to who suffered the most. Suffering is relative to the person, and yes Angel has suffered but that doesn't mean that he's an innocenct being, even with a soul he has done some very bad things. And has gotten some fantastic things in his life, a child,validation as a champion,ect. Spike's soulled hands in comparisen are less tainted in human blood. You must have missed season7 of Buffy if you think that he didn't care, we all have a different way of dealing with things. Angel's journey isn't how every soulled vampire would act, he's unique just like Spike is. And i do respect the fact that Spike got off his ass and helped save the world instead of wallowing in self-pity for years on end.
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jan 13, 2008 7:45:09 GMT -5
- he loved Buffy with a soul originally and never got a chance to have a real relationship with her including all the physical stuff that came along with it. That's why their story is the more heartbreaking and beautiful one. Because they wanted each other so badly and could never have each other. God, that sucks. And Angel left his one and only love - hurting them both - because it was the right thing to do. He was completely unselfish about it. And, you know, he was getting his own show. Spike might have got his soul for Buffy - maybe - but he also did so for himself. I don't believe in soulmates, and even if i did, Buffy and Angel wouldn't be a canditate for it. Just the fact that they can live without each other proves it to me. Angel was able to move on after her death. And Buffy was also able to move on from him. I loved that part in season 3, where Angel comes back from meeting Buffy and he catches his gang acting out the Bangel melodrama, it's hilarious! If you truelly want to be with someone, then nothing can stop you, the curse was an excuse, not a real reason.
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Post by willowswarlok on Jan 13, 2008 12:48:48 GMT -5
i think the curse was a perfectly valid excuse. he couldnt physically be with Bufft, they both knew that. Even if they agreed they wouldnt ever do it again, watch I Will Remember You. Buffy and Angel, once they get over theyre excuses, they're attacking eachother.
also, are we forgetting, Spikes had his soul for what? a Year? ofcourse his hands arent going to be as bloodied as Angels, hes has his soul for WAY longer.
Also, about Spike not needing to get the chip out to kill Buffy, thats true BUT even if he wanted to, he couldnt, purely because he "loved" her. He could have killed her if he wanted, but hes feelings were getting in the way.
How do we know he didnt go there to get his feelings for Buffy, somehow diminished, therefore, returning him to his former self, a ruthless, slayer killing machine?
It can be interpreted any way the viewer wants it. I couldnt care if Joss said it. To me, thats how it comes across on TV. So therefore, thats how i will believe it
Wayne
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jan 14, 2008 13:53:00 GMT -5
i think the curse was a perfectly valid excuse. he couldnt physically be with Bufft, they both knew that. Even if they agreed they wouldnt ever do it again, watch I Will Remember You. Buffy and Angel, once they get over theyre excuses, they're attacking eachother. also, are we forgetting, Spikes had his soul for what? a Year? ofcourse his hands arent going to be as bloodied as Angels, hes has his soul for WAY longer. It can be interpreted any way the viewer wants it. I couldnt care if Joss said it. To me, thats how it comes across on TV. So therefore, thats how i will believe it Wayne If Buffy and Angel truelly wanted to be together then the curse wouldn't have stopped them, in a fantasy-world of magic, where little girls fight evil, a red-head nerd becomes one of the world's most powerful witches,ect A simple curse by gypsies is fixable. There is always more then one option, Angel and Buffy didn't search the the world trough for a solution, they didn't fight to hell and back for each other. Angel after a few years tried to rejoin Darla, he killed humans, sure they were bad and evil, but so was Angel by his actions. I think it's quite impressive that Spike, after a year of being soulled, has saved the world and is a champion. You can believe it as much as you want, that doesn't make it so on the show.
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Post by willowswarlok on Jan 14, 2008 14:35:28 GMT -5
i didnt say it makes it so, its just the way that i have interpreted it on the show. doesnt mean im right, but everyone views things differently.
yes, the curse could have been fixed, but remember, when Angel had the ring? he said that the powers that be brought him back for a reason. if he was to remove his curse, then it would in some way, take away a part of him. he was ment to suffer for his life as Angelus.
Thats also what makes his story so tragic. He's a vampire that is capable of love, yet cant show it physically. The reason he left Buffy wasnt because of the curse, it was because, together, they could never of had a normal life.
Also, are you forgetting that Spike killed INNOCENT humans when he had a soul, yes, he was being controled by the first, but still, he still killed them!
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
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Post by alycat7 on Jan 14, 2008 21:40:30 GMT -5
Angel signed away the sanshu prophecy, so maybe it was always meant for Spike.
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Kratos
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:15]
Posts: 190
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Post by Kratos on Jan 14, 2008 23:36:32 GMT -5
i didnt say it makes it so, its just the way that i have interpreted it on the show. doesnt mean im right, but everyone views things differently. yes, the curse could have been fixed, but remember, when Angel had the ring? he said that the powers that be brought him back for a reason. if he was to remove his curse, then it would in some way, take away a part of him. he was ment to suffer for his life as Angelus. Thats also what makes his story so tragic. He's a vampire that is capable of love, yet cant show it physically. The reason he left Buffy wasnt because of the curse, it was because, together, they could never of had a normal life. Also, are you forgetting that Spike killed INNOCENT humans when he had a soul, yes, he was being controled by the first, but still, he still killed them! Exactly, you and i can have our opinions, but Joss's isn't just an opinion, his word is fact. Unless it's scenes like the fade to black when Spike is opposite Buffy in the basement, but that was left to interpetation for the fans. Other things, like Spike knowing that he was getting a soul, are completely canon-fact. To me, Dru will always be the most tragic vamp on the show. And Angel can have sex, as demonstrated in season5, now that he knows about the curse, there a much smaller chance of him losing it. To paraphrase Buffy, Spike didn't have free-will, Angel did. That makes it completely different.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 15, 2008 4:22:01 GMT -5
Angel can have sex because it's not with Buffy. He only experiences perfect happiness with her (and Cordy if you value his imagination bonk in season 4... urgh) because she is the love of his life. I don't believe in soulmates really, especially on Buffy; but Buffy and Angel were comepletely in love, and everytime they are reunited you can see that they still are.
I don't see the point in discrediting Angel because of how long it took him to get on the path. Spike did faster only because he had people to follow and join. Angel was totally alone when it happened to him. He didn't even know what had happened. No support and no knowledge of what is happening tends to slow you down.
And finally, the bad things Angel did with a soul (that guy in the 70's) only seems particularly bad because it's through Angel's eyes. He felt incredible guilt about what he did; whereas souled Spike clearly doesn't give a shite about killing humans, for instance he only let Wood live because he killed his mother.
Spike being a better man just doesn't wash because it's clear on both shows that Spike is much more selfishly motivated than Angel is. "I don't give a piss about atonement" pretty well sums it up. He IS still a good guy though.
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jan 15, 2008 14:26:51 GMT -5
Angel can have sex because it's not with Buffy. He only experiences perfect happiness with her (and Cordy if you value his imagination bonk in season 4... urgh) because she is the love of his life. I don't believe in soulmates really, especially on Buffy; but Buffy and Angel were comepletely in love, and everytime they are reunited you can see that they still are. I don't see the point in discrediting Angel because of how long it took him to get on the path. Spike did faster only because he had people to follow and join. Angel was totally alone when it happened to him. He didn't even know what had happened. No support and no knowledge of what is happening tends to slow you down. And finally, the bad things Angel did with a soul (that guy in the 70's) only seems particularly bad because it's through Angel's eyes. He felt incredible guilt about what he did; whereas souled Spike clearly doesn't give a shite about killing humans, for instance he only let Wood live because he killed his mother. Spike being a better man just doesn't wash because it's clear on both shows that Spike is much more selfishly motivated than Angel is. "I don't give a piss about atonement" pretty well sums it up. He IS still a good guy though. No, he can have sex because he is now aware of the curse. In season2 of Buffy he was caught unaware. Otherwise he would have lost his soul when Connor was born too,i'm sure he would have lost his soul with the perfect happyness of having a son. When he had sex with Nina, he was aware of the curse, and it makes him conscious of not losing himself. And both Buffy and Angel have moved on, i don't see them as in love every time they meet. There's a big difference between being in love and loving someone. Angel had a gang, people loving and believing in him and he still failed on occasion. Spike didn't really have help except for Buffy, the Scoobies simply tolerated him because of Buffy. He still chose himself to get a soul and save the world in the end. Right, going on your Spike comments, you don't seem to know anything concerning the character. Not feeling any guilt? Wow, you must have missed season7 when Spike was trying on several occasion to make Buffy kill him. Wood is a different case, just because he killed his mother doesn't mean that Spike would take death for that person. Angel is the same way, he felt sorry for what he did to Holtz and his familly but that doesn't meant that he was going to let his own familly and himself pay for it. Angel has shown to be just as selfish as Spike. And Spike is right about that, you can't really be redeemed of those horrible things, it's not a game as to when you get to a certain quota of saving people that you are finally redeemed. All those people are still dead, those horrible disgusting actions still happend. Spike accepts that, but that doesn't mean that he's going to dwell on it or try to make up for it, because you can't.
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Post by willowswarlok on Jan 16, 2008 4:11:29 GMT -5
they are all valid points BUT remember. Angel was sent to hell, but the Powers That Be, resurected him or brought him out of hell. Because they knew that he had a job to do, that he had a purpose, a destiny. Yes, Spike saved the world, or atleast Sunnydale, but it wasnt the Powers That Be that brought Spike back, it was Lindsay/ W&H, right? And that was purely to put Angel off, which worked. Im not saying i dont like Spike, because i do. I just prefer him when he was evil and trying to kill Buffy, wheras, i prefer Angel, over Angelus (although only Angelus could pull of the Leather Pants )
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jan 16, 2008 14:35:22 GMT -5
they are all valid points BUT remember. Angel was sent to hell, but the Powers That Be, resurected him or brought him out of hell. Because they knew that he had a job to do, that he had a purpose, a destiny. Yes, Spike saved the world, or atleast Sunnydale, but it wasnt the Powers That Be that brought Spike back, it was Lindsay/ W&H, right? And that was purely to put Angel off, which worked. Im not saying i dont like Spike, because i do. I just prefer him when he was evil and trying to kill Buffy, wheras, i prefer Angel, over Angelus (although only Angelus could pull of the Leather Pants ) That wasn't a fact, The first took credit for bringing Angel back but wether that was the truth also remains a question mark, we don't know for sure who brought Angel back. And either way, the powers to be aren't god, they are players just like other higher powers, they have their own intrest which is balance. No, he saved the world, a handfull of slayers were left and they wouldn't have been able to defeat the thousends of turokhans left. He destroyed the army and closed that hellmouth with the amulet. Well i like both Spike and Angel as champions, but there journeys and actions still have lots of differences.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 16, 2008 18:42:34 GMT -5
Well after reading Issue 3 of After the Fall...there is no doubt in my mind that things are different for Angel now.
He and Spike are not even close to the same anymore. Read it! It's the biggest event in Buffyverse history I think! What will Buffy say when she finds out?!?!
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 16, 2008 19:25:24 GMT -5
SPOILER:
Angel is human now. He got Shanshu'ed!
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Post by roguewarrior on Jan 16, 2008 22:55:48 GMT -5
I hope so.
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Post by SlayerLV on Jan 17, 2008 0:00:56 GMT -5
I highly doubt it will be worked into season 8 since they can't do a crossover and I would kinda consider that a crossover.
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Post by sagewoman on Jan 17, 2008 10:36:28 GMT -5
They can do a crossover. Joss has said that a million times. He just said he doesn't know if he WANTS to yet. I agree with Mickey. Also if you read Brian's remarks, it is clear that if warranted there isn't a reason there couldn't be a crossover - just isn't warranted yet (the future is open).
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jan 17, 2008 13:44:59 GMT -5
Well after reading Issue 3 of After the Fall...there is no doubt in my mind that things are different for Angel now. He and Spike are not even close to the same anymore. Read it! It's the biggest event in Buffyverse history I think! What will Buffy say when she finds out?!?! Yes, i have read it and i have to say, i think you are assuming too much. He doesn't say he's human, he just says that he isn't a vampire anymore. That can mean a hunderd different things, this could also have to do with W&H punishment, we know for a fact that Angel was unable to move for weeks and inactive for months. And i hardly think that Buffy is on his mind right know, there are alot more important things going on. Same goes for Spike, he isn't just pining away, he's doing what he's supposed to be doing, being a champion.
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