Should Angel...

[Skytteflickan88]

Should Angel have changed everyone's memories in the end of season 4?

Here are the pro and cons, that I could think of:

Pro
Connor needs a new start.

Con
He deserves a new start, but also his right to choose. It's his life.


Pro
I assume that everyone forgot about Jasmine, which they needed, because of the lose of love. Angel might also have taken away a lot of other trouble from their minds (Wes's kidnapping and everyone turning their back on him).

Con
IT'S THEIR LIFE, let them make their own decision. Therapy could have worked.


Pro
Angel took Wesley's, Gunn's, Fred's, Lorne's memories of Connor because he thought they might find and tell Connor about his real life.

Con
Freedom of choice. I don't think they would betray Angel like that.


Pro
Connor's new family got a new familymember.

Con
Did they ask for a new son/brother or were they forced by Angel & W&H?

Angel isn't a bad guy, his heart is in the right place, but sometimes he's an idiot. An selfish idiot. I don't think se should have done this.

Anyone want to leave their 2 cents on this issue?

[artiswar]

I don't have enough time right now to answer in depth, but I think Angel definitely had to.

To put it in most crude terms, he had to cut his losses and move on. Things at that point had become beyond ****ed up, and a lot of people would likely have died if he hadn't, or at the very least one human being. It could be argued that the life of one person is worth raping the memories of a few people (even though they were largely very bad memories).

-edit- which now that i think about it is a nice parallel to the morality behind the entire Jasmine arc. (handful of lives + choice in exchange for bliss)

[alycat7]

I think Angel's decision was a selfish one. But it didn't really hurt anyone so it was no big deal.

[Wyndam]

Artiswar summed it up nicely. Angel didn't do it just for the sake of changing the memories of his close friends, he did it to save Connor, to save Cordelia, and to save the people that Connor was about to blow up. He had to do it, and really had no choice in the matter. Wesley was more or less normal again, and the others were spared all of the pain that Connor caused them. They were all better off after Angel "killed" Connor and gave him a better life.

[Spike's Slayer]

I think Angel's decision was for everyone's best interests. So, i think it would have been better to do it than let everyone remember.

[henzINNIT]

May 27, 2008 19:28:15 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Should Angel have changed everyone's memories in the end of season 4?

Here are the pro and cons, that I could think of:

Pro
Connor needs a new start.

Con
He deserves a new start, but also his right to choose. It's his life.

Without this drastic action, Connor would have killed himself and others. What choice would you give him?

May 27, 2008 19:28:15 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Pro
I assume that everyone forgot about Jasmine, which they needed, because of the lose of love. Angel might also have taken away a lot of other trouble from their minds (Wes's kidnapping and everyone turning their back on him).

Con
IT'S THEIR LIFE, let them make their own decision. Therapy could have worked.

I don't recall finding out Angel's friends had Jasimne related memories removed. I thought it was only Connor related stuff.

May 27, 2008 19:28:15 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Pro
Angel took Wesley's, Gunn's, Fred's, Lorne's memories of Connor because he thought they might find and tell Connor about his real life.

Con
Freedom of choice. I don't think they would betray Angel like that.

There was also no indication that doing the spell without it effecting Angel's friends was possible. I don't think Angel thought they would betray him either.

May 27, 2008 19:28:15 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Pro
Connor's new family got a new familymember.

Con
Did they ask for a new son/brother or were they forced by Angel & W&H?

They got a new family member who they loved and who loved them. I doubt they got the choice, but there was hardly anything negative about getting Connor.

[dragonweaver]

I truely believe that Angel did what he did to save Connor from a complete meltdown that would have most likely lead to Connor killing himself and taking innocent bystanders with him. Connor never had a childhood and was raised in a kill or be killed world. Angel let W&H give his son a family, happy childhood memories and a chance to have a future. That was he is motivation.

As for his friends, I kind of think that was secondary to saving Connor but also done out of love. Angel spared them from remembering the agony of Wesley's betrayal and the damage Connor caused.

With that said I do see your point. While Angel may have had good intentions, he did take away Connor and his friends' right to choose. He pulled a "Jasmine" and deemed that robbing them of their memories was justified by the fact that they'd be happier without them; that the sacrifice of a few people would be better for the larger picture.

SO to sum up my post... I agree that what Angel did was wrong, but I believe it was the right thing to do considering the circumstances.

[Skytteflickan88]

You all have valid points, and I'll try to sum up my answers in this post, without quotes.

artiswar, I'm not sure what you mean. I get changing Connor's memories, although I do think that Angel could have tried to talk to him, give Connor a couple of months, before he changed Connor. But I don't get how taking away his friends' memories would help Connor.

Wyndam, I'm not sure if having memories erased saved the people Connor was about to blow up. Couldn't Angel just disarm the bomb and everyone could be on their marry way?

alycat7, I cringed when I read your reply, because it made me think of a saying I hate "What you don't know about can't hurt you".

I hate the idea of someone changing me, in any way. I like therapy and don't think people who try to change themselves and they're way of thinking are foolish, but I'm against a fast solution. Specially if your choice is taken away. True, no one suffers, but for better or worse, Connor grew up in a helldemonsion and became Connor, the kid we hated/pityed in season 3 & 4.

Then Angel changed him, took away a big part of his personality (for example his taste for older women). And Angel also took away a profound experience from Wesley's life. Wesley is still Wesley, with or without what happened to him in season 3 & 4, but it changed him a little bit, he evolved, and Angel took that away, without consent.


Henz.

I assumed that the Jasmine-memories were erased too, Jasmine being Connor's "daughter" and all. And when erasing painful memories of Connor, why skip the painful Jasmine-memories? But true, I'm only guessing.

I never thought that Wesley's and the other's memory-loss was a side-effect, but I guess that's possible. Not likely, but possible.

"They got a new family member who they loved and who loved them. I doubt they got the choice, but there was hardly anything negative about getting Connor."

Hmm. Hardly any negative about getting potentially a murderous son... I doubt that Angel knew Connor was a 100% safe before giving him a new family, and I bet W&H didn't care. But let's say that he's harmless. I can't change your mind if you think it's okay, but I'm against any kind of spells that alter a persons memories or feelings. It took me years before I accepted that the monks made Dawn and forced the scoobies to remember and love her, and I don't think I'll ever get how Angel could take away Connor's "family's" choice. I just don't get how someone could be so selfish and ruthless.


********

To sum up, Angel didn't have much choice with Connor, but Wesley and the others and specially Connor's family, they should have been given a choice. Another thing that pisses me of, is that Angel did minor changes too. In season 5, Angel says "they were so suppose to fix that" when Connor says that he likes older women. I don't think Angel tried to change that little detail in Connor's personality to save Connor's life.

Everyone should have their right to choose. The pain in our past doesn't always cripple us. Sometimes it makes us stronger.

I hope more people will leave their views.

[willowsummers]

Literally, it may have been a little selfish, though I don't know what else he could have done. It is also way too easy to relate to so I can't blame him for it. Also, Connor is happier, his new family seems to be perfectly happy and even when everyone finds out, they're able to deal. Wesley even made a comment afterwards that suggested he almost wished he could forget it again.

Truly though, I believe this is a metaphor. I see everything in Buffy and Angel this way. But I think it's actually a metaphor for just how sacrificing Angel is. Hence my banner. He saved Connor and god knows how many other people by showing Connor just how much he loved him. That's invaluable.

[Randi Giles]

Honestly I dont think it was really necessary considering people like Eve knew. If anything it should have been made so his enemies wouldn't know, but considering the situation I think that was off the table. All he really needed to do was alter Connor's mind and his new family like the monks did with Dawn. What could the others do or say if they knew? He wanted to give his son a better life and I doubt they would have objected to that.