El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 12, 2008 1:30:12 GMT -5
Okay, this is inspired by a subject that came up in the "I Support Scott Allie" thread... and I think they were talking about it in the chatbox one night last week when I popped in for a minute or two.
The question is, how do you view the existence of Angel's soul (and, by extension, Spike's, as well), and the effect it has on him? Are Angel and Angelus two distinct, separate beings, or do you believe that it's the same being, just with and without a human conscience?
It's an interesting question, because the writers muddied the waters enough over the years with lots of contradictory evidence, so I think this one almost comes down to a matter of personal opinion, where there is no right or wrong. Personally, I'm in the "they're two completely separate beings" category...
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Post by Emmie on Jun 12, 2008 2:03:50 GMT -5
I don't think it's as simple as having a soul absolving either Spike or Angel from their past deeds. It really hinges on the argument of the nature of the interaction between the demon and the soul - something that the Buffyverse has not clearly defined.
If having a soul absolves Angel from his past deeds, why does he seek redemption?
Okay, so I'm going to try to list what we know about the soul and how a soul is defined in the Buffyverse.
In the Buffyverse:
1. Human beings have souls. This does not necessarily make them good as there are people like Warren, who steal, attempt rape and commit murder with no show of guilt or remorse.
2. Souls are immortal and incorporeal. Souls exist either within the human body, in the ether (?), in one of "thousands of heavenly dimensions" (Tara, Tabula Rasa) or presumably in hell if you've been very bad. The ether I see as some way-station for souls in between heaven and hell, sort of purgatory without the punitive connotation. The ether is not heaven as Buffy has a memory of the heavenly dimension and the bliss felt there while Angel apparently felt/remembers nothing while his soul was in the ether.
Before defining the souled vampire, Angel. First look at the vampire Angelus. Liam was turned by Darla, his soul left his body to rest in the ether, while a demon essence entered through Darla's vampire blood. The demon essence took over and reanimated the dead body, taking the host body's memories and emotions and distorting them through the rage/violent nature of the demon.
The two biggest questions raised by this inquiry are: what is the soul, its nature, dominion and limitations? - and what is the demon essence, its nature, dominion and limitations?
Which is stronger/dominant within the host - soul or demon essence? We see Angel struggle with the urges of the demon, and his most heroic moments are when the soul is clearly dominant. But he has spiralled into dark behavior (ats season 2) which is attributed to his faith/hope being weakened and thus the dominance of the soul gave way to his demonic side. These two forces inside him are in conflict - the soul is dominant now that Angel has found purpose as a champion for good, but in the hundred years that he wandered aimlessly I feel that the demon and soul within were on even par. He felt the urges to drink from humans repeatedly and barely resisted killing (Orpheus diner flashback 70's), but for the soul making him feel shame and guilt. Yet the demon hunger was so strong that he did drink from the shot victim immediately after he died.
The two forces inside seem to be equal in strength that Angel spent most of his time trying to control himself, always on the verge of hurting/killing someone. I believe the scales were tipped in the soul's favor when he saw Buffy and felt love for the first time, and tipped even further when he was given a mission to help people and created a family with his team. As Wesley said he "walks a fine line" and it is human connection that keeps him from falling prey to his demonic urges.
Definition
1. The soul is defined as the immortal self-aware essence unique to a particular human being, incorporeal outside of the body.
As Joss plays fast and loose with theology in the Buffyverse, another definition I find fitting comes from Plato who defines the soul as "the essence of a person, being, that which decides how we behave...this essence is an incorporeal, eternal occupant of our being." The Platonic soul comprises three parts: the logos (mind, nous, or reason), the thymos (emotion, or spiritedness), the eros (appetitive, or desire).
Take soul out of these definitions and replace the word with demonic essence.
2. The demonic essence is defined as the immortal self-aware essence unique to a particular vampire, incorporeal outside of the body.
This demonic essence of a person, being... decides how we behave...this demonic essence is an incorporeal, eternal occupant of our being." The demonic essence comprises three parts: the logos (mind, nous, or reason), the thymos (emotion, or spiritedness), the eros (appetitive, or desire).
Does that sound about right for vampires?
One weakness to this argument is whether the demonic essence truly comprises the logos, but it can be argued by some that the soul doesn't comprise the mind either. Rather both control it.
Is it outrageous to suggest that there are different kinds of souls? That a human soul is a soul of light, destined for heavenly dimensions once outside of the body, while a demon soul is a soul of darkness, destined for hellish dimensions once outside the body. Would it really be so hard to believe that in a reality, the Buffyverse, where demons and true evil exists, that this balance could exist also? Good souls and evil souls. Dark and light.
Kudos to anyone who actually read all of this. I didn't mean for it to be so long, but I found it really interesting when I actually tried to define what is the demon and soul within. I certainly wasn't looking for an argument that demons have demonic souls. It just kind of found me.
I think the demon and human soul within Angel can be seen simply as the dark and light forces within him, vying for dominance and control of his body, mind and emotions. Take the soul out of Angel and it will retain the memories and identity of what is within Angel. Take the demon out of Angel and it will also retain these (i'm assuming that the demonic essence is immortal, which makes sense considering that demons are immortal and when hybridized with humans make humans immortal). The demon re-animates the dead body, giving it un-life. The soul is believed to animate the human body, that a person cannot live without their soul, giving it life.
So can we judge/blame Angel for his actions while without a human soul?
I think no. Without a light force inside to guide him morally, Angel cannot be judged by human moral standards or blamed for his actions. He was living by his nature at that time. He was evil.
The distinction really is that two seperate entities exist, the light-souled Liam and the dark-souled demon Angelus. Angel is the joint forces of both light and dark, he is like two people joined into one yet he is one person. He shouldn't be condemned for his dark past, but praised for rising above the still-present darkness within to do good. By making the light inside the dominant force.
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artiswar
Novice Witch
Cool... what's a rogue demon??[Mo0:0]
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Post by artiswar on Jun 12, 2008 5:02:34 GMT -5
In S2 of Buffy, it was pretty definitive that Angel and Angelus were the same person, just minus a soul (they even called him Angel still a lot of the time), but S4 of Angel really kind of put a spin on the whole thing. According to Orpheus, Angelus is sort of like the little devil on Angel's shoulder, always beneath the surface. This was a concept that wasn't really touched on before this. I personally see Angel and Angelus, and even Liam, as completely seperate entities. I think. It's 6 in the morning and this tpoc is giving me a headache. I'll try to delve a little deeper when I'm more awake.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 12, 2008 6:24:03 GMT -5
So I'm thinking Orpheus now makes sense to me if in the dream-state we're seeing the souls/essences of Faith and Angelus, and then Angel (the light soul) as he is being returned to his body.
Angel really is the man with both a devil and an angel on each shoulder whispering in his ear.
Wow, Angel is the most interesting character study - looking at him and trying to understand him really makes you think. A lot.
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Rachster
Bad Ass Wicca
♥Koala Girl♥
Rachster previousily know as buffyfanforever. :][Mo0:34]
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Post by Rachster on Jun 12, 2008 6:58:20 GMT -5
the way i see it is..
Angel and angelus same person different parts kind of like when xander got split but with angel its good and bad, when angel is controlling the body angelus is always trapped inside and when angelus has control angel is trapped.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 12, 2008 8:41:16 GMT -5
the way i see it is.. Angel and angelus same person different parts kind of like when xander got split but with angel its good and bad, when angel is controlling the body angelus is always trapped inside and when angelus has control angel is trapped. When Angelus is back, the soul's gone, meaning that Angel/Liam is gone, and the demon's in the driver's seat. Thus, I believe that Angel/Angelus are the same being, just governed by either the human soul, or the demon essence (the blue demon thing that Angel morphs into when he tries to put on his vamp face, since the polarity between the governing forces of Angel go out of whack when in Pylea). El Diablo Robotico: Can you mention some instances that support the two different individuals hypothesis? The only one that comes to mind is the fact that Angel couldn't remember anything about the Beast, but Angelus could... but it was glossed over by the fact that Cordy (or Jasmine in Cordy's body) wiped all references to the Beast in this dimension. And since Angelus wasn't there (or was, but buried under tons of emotional baggage), he wasn't affected. |
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 12, 2008 13:41:16 GMT -5
El Diablo Robotico: Can you mention some instances that support the two different individuals hypothesis? I can sure try.  In "Angel" (The S1 "Buffy" episode), Giles says: "A vampire isn't a person at all. It may have the movements, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over, but it's still a demon at the core, there is no halfway." Buffy in "Lie to Me": "Well, I've got a newsflash for you, braintrust: that's not how it works. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it's not you." If we believe that these two know what they're talking about, then it seems to back up Emmie's definition that: "The soul is defined as the immortal self-aware essence unique to a particular human being, incorporeal outside of the body". Ergo, when the soul is not present, a demon--with the veneers of the former host's body's personality--is in charge, and the soul is gone. When and if the soul is returned, the essence of the human that once occupied the body occupies it once again. Which would be two different beings: the demon that took over when the human was killed and sired, and the human that was kicked out, but then returned. But wait, there's more.  Wesley in "Loyalty": ""If it's a sacrifice you require, take me. Angel's no more responsible for the crimes of Angelus than I am." Buffy in "Lies My Parents Told Me": "I'm preparing to fight a war, and you're looking for revenge on a man that doesn't exist anymore." And then this exchange in "Release": And then, of course, this is carried over into the ultimate depiction of them being separate beings when we get to see them fight each other in the dream-state one episode later, ending with Angelus being visibly pulled back inside Angel. I know that there are other examples that can be cited that make a good case for them being one-and-the-same, but the things mentioned above (and maybe a few other quotes I don't remember off-hand) all make me believe that they're separate and individual. I get the impression that even the writers themselves didn't have a definite idea, and just went with whatever worked best for the particular story they were telling at the time, which created some major inconsistency over the years...  |
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 12, 2008 13:57:35 GMT -5
Call me dense but I don't really read any inconsistancies in there.
Liam becomes Angelus; Angelus then has a soul forced into him, shuns evil and changes his name to Angel.
Whether Angel and Angelus are the same person depends on how you judge what makes a person. Angel is Angelus with a conscience.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 12, 2008 15:37:13 GMT -5
I have to agree with Henz on this, they sound more or less like different ways of saying the same thing, at least from what El Diablo Robotico is saying.
The demon and the soul are the governing forces here, the demon kicks the soul out when it sets up shop, and takes on all the memories/experiences/etc of the host before the siring. I guess I misunderstood your original statement: "Are Angel and Angelus two distinct, separate beings, or do you believe that it's the same being, just with and without a human conscience?"
Because from what you've said so far, it sounds like you're arguing for the latter, which is what I've been saying all along. No soul = no human conscience.
True, Angel/Liam wasn't in control of his body when Angelus was in charge, but since they share the same memories, it would make sense that Angel (and Spike) would feel remorse and guilt for the crimes committed during their soul's sojourn. It's only human to feel bad, even if you're not directly responsible.
And in the case of Angel and Spike, their soul's co-exist with the demon, fighting the demon impulses that are repugnant to them... so I say, hell yeah, bring on the guilt. If it wasn't there, I'd say that they wouldn't be worthy of the title "Champion".
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 12, 2008 16:31:03 GMT -5
I have to agree with Henz on this, they sound more or less like different ways of saying the same thing, at least from what El Diablo Robotico is saying. The demon and the soul are the governing forces here, the demon kicks the soul out when it sets up shop, and takes on all the memories/experiences/etc of the host before the siring. I guess I misunderstood your original statement: "Are Angel and Angelus two distinct, separate beings, or do you believe that it's the same being, just with and without a human conscience?" Because from what you've said so far, it sounds like you're arguing for the latter, which is what I've been saying all along. No soul = no human conscience. True, Angel/Liam wasn't in control of his body when Angelus was in charge, but since they share the same memories, it would make sense that Angel (and Spike) would feel remorse and guilt for the crimes committed during their soul's sojourn. It's only human to feel bad, even if you're not directly responsible. And in the case of Angel and Spike, their soul's co-exist with the demon, fighting the demon impulses that are repugnant to them... so I say, hell yeah, bring on the guilt. If it wasn't there, I'd say that they wouldn't be worthy of the title "Champion". I honestly can't figure out if you're agreeing with me or not.  The simple version of what I was saying is: Angel is human-Liam in an immortal body, with a demon trapped inside. Angelus is the demon, created with Liam's memories and personalities, but freed from his conscience and goodness. So to me, that equates to Liam (Angel) and the demon (Angelus) as being two completely separate entities. |
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 12, 2008 16:34:05 GMT -5
To me there are 3.
Liam - The man who died a couple of centuries ago.
Angelus - The Vampire who killed him.
Angel - The Vampire with added soul.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 12, 2008 16:40:03 GMT -5
To me there are 3. Liam - The man who died a couple of centuries ago. Angelus - The Vampire who killed him. Angel - The Vampire with added soul. Okay, that's getting a little picky, but I suppose I agree with that. I see it as Angel being Liam's human soul, but having been deeply affected by the memories of all the evil deeds done by Angelus in the previous 150 years... |
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 12, 2008 16:52:15 GMT -5
Exactly.
When you think about it, Connor is the perfect son for Angel, having also been a man drastically altered by his life experiences.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 12, 2008 18:08:40 GMT -5
I honestly can't figure out if you're agreeing with me or not. The simple version of what I was saying is: Angel is human-Liam in an immortal body, with a demon trapped inside. Angelus is the demon, created with Liam's memories and personalities, but freed from his conscience and goodness. So to me, that equates to Liam (Angel) and the demon (Angelus) as being two completely separate entities. I agree with you. I just have problems drawing such a distinct line as I've argued before (on the original Scott Allie thread) that the demon in its purest form (or in the purest form it can be in the human vessel) which manifested in Pylea is feral, and hardly intelligent. So Angelus (the human/demon hybrid) had to be created through the interaction between Liam's memories and drives and the demon. Thus, while the demon and Liam's soul are two separate entities, Angelus isn't. It's the culmination of both the demon soul and its temperance by the human aspects of the being. I'm sorry if I wasn't really clear in my previous post... was running off to finish up a radioactive experiment... it's possible that some of the radiation may have already gotten to me. |
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 12, 2008 19:29:41 GMT -5
I agree with you. I just have problems drawing such a distinct line as I've argued before (on the original Scott Allie thread) that the demon in its purest form (or in the purest form it can be in the human vessel) which manifested in Pylea is feral, and hardly intelligent. So Angelus (the human/demon hybrid) had to be created through the interaction between Liam's memories and drives and the demon. Thus, while the demon and Liam's soul are two separate entities, Angelus isn't. It's the culmination of both the demon soul and its temperance by the human aspects of the being. Agree with all of that. Like you said, a vampire is a demon/human hybrid, and is created by mixing the pure demon (the creature that came out in Pylea) with the memories and personality of the person that the body used to be--as Giles and Buffy both described in the quotes I gave. So a vampire is a brand-new being that's created at the time of siring, and the soul of the human is gone. Another thing to add is this quote by Jeffrey Bell from the "Orpheus" audio commentary: "This was also something that we hadn't really thought about before, I think this was Joss's idea, the fact that Angelus is never completely gone, but sort of trapped inside Angel." If he was the same basic being both as Angel and Angelus, just with and without a sense of conscience, morality, and regret, then how could one be "trapped" inside the other? The only way that's possible is if they're two completely individual entities, who share the same body (which is what all the evidence in the Angelus arc of S4 points to). The ultimate schizophreniac. Call me dense but I don't really read any inconsistancies in there. The inconsistencies come with something that Emmie pointed out: if they're not the same being, then why does Angel feel remorse for what Angelus did, and work for redemption? Why is his soul "damned for all eternity", if it wasn't even present in the body at the time all Angelus's evil deeds were committed? What sense does the gypsy curse make, restoring Angel's soul, if Angel wasn't even the one who did all those evil deeds?  |
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Post by Emmie on Jun 12, 2008 21:49:29 GMT -5
I see Angel as a being whose consciousness (morality, judgment, thoughts) and heart (emotions, affections) are controlled by the soul, but whose involuntary bodily functions and instincts are governed by the demon. The demon reanimates the body and keeps its un-alive, gives the urges for blood that will keep the body going, and urges for violence. Angel is not wholly the soul; if he was his body would die and his soul would be released.
So the soul and the demon have a symbiotic relationship (though the demon wouldn't see the benefits). I don't think the demon is trapped completely, but affects Angel viscerally and sometimes pokes at his consciousness. I think it's always fighting for control and Angel's soul-consciousness has to beat it back.
I think the difference for Spike is that the demon sought out the soul, so when the soul was granted mystically the two aspects melded more completely.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 12, 2008 22:03:27 GMT -5
Agree with all of that. Like you said, a vampire is a demon/human hybrid, and is created by mixing the pure demon (the creature that came out in Pylea) with the memories and personality of the person that the body used to be--as Giles and Buffy both described in the quotes I gave. So a vampire is a brand-new being that's created at the time of siring, and the soul of the human is gone. Not denying that the vampire is a somewhat unique entity. However, even though the soul is gone, certain aspects of humanity still exist. So, I find it hard to draw such a clean line that separates the two that clearly. Otherwise, I'm in full agreement here. Another thing to add is this quote by Jeffrey Bell from the "Orpheus" audio commentary: "This was also something that we hadn't really thought about before, I think this was Joss's idea, the fact that Angelus is never completely gone, but sort of trapped inside Angel." I thought this was already established, and that's why Angel constantly wrestles with his internal demons, so to speak. He is drawn to blood, and when provoked, capable of great feats of destruction and violence. He, however, chooses to keep that in check most of the time. Meaning that I never viewed "Orpheus" as a revelatory episode, other than for the fact that it actually showed us a representation of what happens constantly within Angel. If he was the same basic being both as Angel and Angelus, just with and without a sense of conscience, morality, and regret, then how could one be "trapped" inside the other? The only way that's possible is if they're two completely individual entities, who share the same body (which is what all the evidence in the Angelus arc of S4 points to). The ultimate schizophreniac. The dichotomy may be unnecessary. A person struggles with his/her inner demons, and we don't usually consider them schizophrenic. I've always viewed the term "trapped" here as being stuck, but unable to get free. Because Angel is a vampire, he will always have a demon soul/essence. However, as he is somewhat unique, and is cursed (or blessed) with a soul, that demon is unable to gain free reign over the body, as is usually the case with vampires; i.e. it's trapped because it's not free to act as it pleases. I don't disagree that they are probably completely separate entities (i.e. the soul and the demon), but again, I just find it hard to draw such a definite line. Liam, wasn't exactly a boyscout either when he was alive, a whoring drunk amongst other sins; governed solely by the pleasure principle... very much like Angelus actually. So again, the bleedover of the human personality into the demon's existence. The vampire may be a new creation, but it is composed of elements of both the demon and the host, and therefore, not entirely mutually exclusive. This is my personal take... and I acknowledge your interpretation. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me. |
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 13, 2008 6:53:46 GMT -5
Call me dense but I don't really read any inconsistancies in there. The inconsistencies come with something that Emmie pointed out: if they're not the same being, then why does Angel feel remorse for what Angelus did, and work for redemption? Why is his soul "damned for all eternity", if it wasn't even present in the body at the time all Angelus's evil deeds were committed? What sense does the gypsy curse make, restoring Angel's soul, if Angel wasn't even the one who did all those evil deeds? I see. Well Angel feels remorse for those actions because he not only remembers doing them, he remembers enjoying it. Angel was Angelus's punishment, yet ironically Angel is basically an innocent in this. Again I don't see anything brought up as contradictory. The idea of Angelus being trapped under the surface is just a different perspective to the same thing in my opinion. Angel (the soul) was forced into Angelus. Angelus was a typical vampire - demon in human body. The added emotional impulse supressed Angelus' natural state but didn't change anything. Demon in human body + guilt. |
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XanderHarris
Potential Slayer
I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 125
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Post by XanderHarris on Jun 14, 2008 17:41:24 GMT -5
Pretty difficult topic. The whole "soul"-thing is, due to different philosophy ideals and continuity erros in the series, rather unexplainable.
My theory to the whole story:
Angel and Angelus are different personalities with the same memory. Angelus is the simple lust-driven, Angel the reasonable and caring part. Angelus is the demon, Angel to some degree the human.
Spike made a somehow more difficult transformation. He entered a "human-like" behaviour when the chip was implanted. He was forced to hold back his animal urges - a very similar function to what a soul does. With the exception that he still wanted to kill and drink blood.
The biggest turning-point was the time he fell in love with Buffy. Her love combined with the restrictions by the chip made him a very soul-like being. He was neither able nor intended to do harm to people. So you could say, he, in contrast to Angel, earned his soul-like status. He was not forced to become a better being but did it for the love for Buffy.
So:
Angel + Soul = Spike + Chip + Love for Buffy
When Spike reaquired his soul (Note: From free will and with great effort) he exceeded Angel on the "soul-level".
What was once forced on Angel and took him half a century to overcome, was earned and burdended by Spike withing just a few months.
This makes Spike much more noble and gallant than Angel could ever be.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 14, 2008 18:13:05 GMT -5
Spike made a somehow more difficult transformation. He entered a "human-like" behaviour when the chip was implanted. He was forced to hold back his animal urges - a very similar function to what a soul does. With the exception that he still wanted to kill and drink blood. The biggest turning-point was the time he fell in love with Buffy. Her love combined with the restrictions by the chip made him a very soul-like being. He was neither able nor intended to do harm to people. So you could say, he, in contrast to Angel, earned his soul-like status. He was not forced to become a better being but did it for the love for Buffy. Except that the chip was implanted forcefully. He didn't opt to have the implant, thus at that point, his condition was very much like Angel's. Except that Spike still wanted to hurt people, he just couldn't. Angel, on the other hand, was torn because the demon in him demanded nourishment, but his soul reeled from the memories of the horrors and atrocities his body had been used to commit. This may seem nit-picky, but I think Spike sought his soul more so under the delusion that the only reason Buffy couldn't love him was because of his lack of soul, not so much because he loved her. He didn't need a soul to love; Spike's been in love before, first with Dru (I'm discounting Cecily/Halfrek here since it was unrequited) then Buffy. The Judge (as I've previously mentioned) said that Spike and Dru reeked of humanity, because of the way they displayed affection. When Spike reaquired his soul (Note: From free will and with great effort) he exceeded Angel on the "soul-level". What was once forced on Angel and took him half a century to overcome, was earned and burdended by Spike withing just a few months. This makes Spike much more noble and gallant than Angel could ever be. Okay... I've always been mildly peeved at this bit. It always seemed that Spike wanted to get the chip removed, not have his soul restored to me. The restoration of his soul was always an ironic slap in the face to me. So the bit that peeves me is that it's canon that he was actually seeking his soul. True, the whole thing could've been one big mislead, but still... As for nobility... Spike hardly lost any sleep for the acts that he had committed while soulless. Angel on the other hand was tormented by his memories. As for recovery time, Spike had Buffy believing in him. I'm not sure if she ever really loved him (despite her declaration at the end of "Chosen"), but she did believe that he could be a better man, and that helps. Angel was spurned by Darla, and all his "family", a tainted being, neither fully demon, nor human. Note, I'm not a Spike hater, but on the cosmic level, I've always believed Angel to be the bigger person, and the truer champion. Spike's story arc's nothing short of heroic, but his impulses and damn stupidity (face it, he's not much of a thinker, as admitted by himself in his "You're the One" speech to Buffy) makes him just that, a hero. Not a champion. |
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