Can Fred come back?

[gumgnome]

I agree with Mathieu on this one. If the show tells us that someone's soul has been destroyed, they should stick to it, rather than suggesting later that it was a lie. It's just emotional blackmail.
Further thoughts on the situation: In a universe where the soul is obviously such a powerful force, it makes sense to me that an ultimately evil, but supremely powerful thing to do would be to destroy a soul and harness the energy created somehow for your own means.
It struck me that when Illyria was acting as Fred, she was using memories from the shell. This never lead me to think that there was anything of Fred in there still, but the duality talked of above can occur when you see Illyria interpreting Fred's memories and creating a facsimile of her. With the knowledge that the real Fred is utterly destroyed, the pain for Wes is understandably palpable and strong.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

Further thoughts on the situation: In a universe where the soul is obviously such a powerful force, it makes sense to me that an ultimately evil, but supremely powerful thing to do would be to destroy a soul and harness the energy created somehow for your own means.

I've actually been thinking about this in relation to The First Evil. How do we know Illyria is truly "evil"? All she did in the show was in the name of getting her kingdom back - so, selfish yes, but not necessarily evil.

I wanna know what happened in the earliest days of demon history. What was the First's role in the development of the earliest demons, vampires, Wolf Ram & Hart, etc? Until I understand how deep the First's roots really go, I'm not quite comfortable with calling Illyria "evil".

Just a thought.

[Mathieu]

Jun 14, 2009 9:20:34 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

I agree with Mathieu on this one. If the show tells us that someone's soul has been destroyed, they should stick to it, rather than suggesting later that it was a lie. It's just emotional blackmail.
Further thoughts on the situation: In a universe where the soul is obviously such a powerful force, it makes sense to me that an ultimately evil, but supremely powerful thing to do would be to destroy a soul and harness the energy created somehow for your own means.
It struck me that when Illyria was acting as Fred, she was using memories from the shell. This never lead me to think that there was anything of Fred in there still, but the duality talked of above can occur when you see Illyria interpreting Fred's memories and creating a facsimile of her. With the knowledge that the real Fred is utterly destroyed, the pain for Wes is understandably palpable and strong.

I also believe Fred's death was horrible because they made clear that having a soul is a big deal in the Buffyverse. If you destroy somebody's soul, it's the ultimate evil you can inflict. Hence the incredible pain Wesley must have felt.

And I guess we can all relate to that. For those of us who are believers and believe our loved ones go to a better place after they die, it would be an unbearable pain to think that their souls have been completely erased and there's no chance of ever seeing them again, even in an after life.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

If you destroy somebody's soul, it's the ultimate evil you can inflict.

Again, still not seeing the "evil" part. 5x19 "Time Bomb" Wesley says Illyria infected Fred with little more malice than a bacterial phage. Illyria itself even seemed to be surprised to have been revived in a human shell, thinking that "the humans would have long died out by now" (5x16 "Shells").

[Mathieu]

Jun 14, 2009 11:00:58 GMT -5 Hellbound Hyperion said:

If you destroy somebody's soul, it's the ultimate evil you can inflict.

Again, still not seeing the "evil" part. 5x19 "Time Bomb" Wesley says Illyria infected Fred with little more malice than a bacterial phage. Illyria itself even seemed to be surprised to have been revived in a human shell, thinking that "the humans would have long died out by now" (5x16 "Shells").

Maybe not evil then, but let's say it's just the worst thing you can do to someone.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

Maybe not evil then, but let's say it's just the worst thing you can do to someone.

Fair enough. And the whole soul bugaboo may have just been Angel and Spike clinging to straws. After all, they both loved Fred in their own way. There's as good a chance her soul really was destroyed resurrecting Illyria as not. Given how limited our information on Old Ones and their resurrection goes, it's anyone's guess really.

[Mathieu]

Jun 14, 2009 11:24:33 GMT -5 Hellbound Hyperion said:

Maybe not evil then, but let's say it's just the worst thing you can do to someone.

Fair enough. And the whole soul bugaboo may have just been Angel and Spike clinging to straws. After all, they both loved Fred in their own way. There's as good a chance her soul really was destroyed resurrecting Illyria as not. Given how limited our information on Old Ones and their resurrection goes, it's anyone's guess really.

Yeap, I agree. Again, I'm not disputing the truth or anything. I have no idea what truly happened to Fred's soul.

I'm just saying that I want her soul to have been erased because it makes her story a lot more epic and compelling.

Jenny died? Oh well. Joyce died? Oh well. Tara died? Oh well. Anya died? Oh well. Fred died? No. She didn't just die, she's been completely erased from our universe. Her soul is gone, back to nothing.

[gumgnome]

Jun 14, 2009 11:00:58 GMT -5 Hellbound Hyperion said:

If you destroy somebody's soul, it's the ultimate evil you can inflict.

Again, still not seeing the "evil" part. 5x19 "Time Bomb" Wesley says Illyria infected Fred with little more malice than a bacterial phage. Illyria itself even seemed to be surprised to have been revived in a human shell, thinking that "the humans would have long died out by now" (5x16 "Shells").

I would agree with you totally. There is nothing necessarily evil about what Illyria did because she did not set in motion the events that lad to Fred's soul being destroyed. Knox and those who were in the know, however, were committing a truly monstrous act.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

Jun 14, 2009 14:53:28 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

Jun 14, 2009 11:00:58 GMT -5 Hellbound Hyperion said:

Again, still not seeing the "evil" part. 5x19 "Time Bomb" Wesley says Illyria infected Fred with little more malice than a bacterial phage. Illyria itself even seemed to be surprised to have been revived in a human shell, thinking that "the humans would have long died out by now" (5x16 "Shells").

I would agree with you totally. There is nothing necessarily evil about what Illyria did because she did not set in motion the events that lad to Fred's soul being destroyed. Knox and those who were in the know, however, were committing a truly monstrous act.

Well, actually, according to Wesley, Illyria's release was preordained and so the W&H employees might have just been doing jobs set to them by the Senior Partners (at least I'm pretty sure I remember that from A Hole in the World but I might be wrong)... but I'm more inclined to agree with you there. Of course, the big difference is that Knox worshiped Illyria while the Doctor was just playing his role.

Jenny died? Oh well. Joyce died? Oh well. Tara died? Oh well. Anya died? Oh well. Fred died? No. She didn't just die, she's been completely erased from our universe. Her soul is gone, back to nothing.

Hahaha, this is true! It just wouldn't be Joss if he wasn't killing off main characters.

[Randi Giles]

I love the fact that some of Freds essence has come back. I just wish Fred was in the driver seat more. If Angel was still airing : ( sob...I would like it if Fred was being Fred like she was, then turn into Illyria in battle and kick butt or just whenever she has an itch. : )

EDIT : P.S. This is just cause while I do enjoy the Illyria character and understand where everybody is coming from about her soul being destroy, I just can't get over her death it as so sad...sob.

[qtip]

They're bringing Fred back? :Face-palm: omg, they're sure scraping the bottom of the originality barrel now.