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Post by VampSlayer on Jun 20, 2008 11:36:41 GMT -5
In the comics she is, but remember Illyria said her soul was destroyed, and her insides melted. How could she come back???
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 20, 2008 12:06:48 GMT -5
In the comics she is, but remember Illyria said her soul was destroyed, and her insides melted. How could she come back??? No, Illyria didn't say that--creepy Dr. Sparrow said that. And everyone just believed him. They believed that he not only knew what he was talking about, but that he was also telling the truth. They just bought it and moved on. Which bothered me for years, so I'm so happy that it's being addressed in the comics. And as far as her "insides melting"--Spike was flash-fried in a pillar of fire. He got better. Buffy died and spent five months moldering in a box. She recovered. It's the soul that matters, and the only source they have about what really happened to her soul isn't exactly what you'd call "reliable"...
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Post by Joe on Jun 21, 2008 8:14:34 GMT -5
I think the reason Fred is back is because hell is making Illyria time-shift a lot.. which is making her jump to places where Fred is alive so Fred get's put back in the same body when Illyria time-shifts back. That's how I look at it..
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Post by Whedon Fan on Jun 21, 2008 10:16:51 GMT -5
In the comics she is, but remember Illyria said her soul was destroyed, and her insides melted. How could she come back??? I can answer that one. As Spike said in the episode he burnt alive at the end of chosen and now he's fine. ANgel was sent to hell and now he's fine. They both said that it's the soul that matters. Now I know that Team Angel were told that Fred's soul was destroyed in the Fires of Reseruction BUT think for a sec who told them this....it was the Wolfram and Hart doctor....THE EVIL WOLFRAM AND HART DOCTOR. He and Knox wanted to bring forth Illyria so of course he would lie to them all and say her soul was destroyed other wise Angel and Co would have killed Illyria and brought back Fred, so the Evil Doctor lied to keep Illyria and make sure Fred stayed dead...to cut it short the doctor lied to everyone, Freds soul is still out there somewhere deep inside Illyria so it is possible for her tocome back or at least share a body with Illyria.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 21, 2008 12:02:10 GMT -5
I think that Fred can come back without a soul. Not to a 100%, but I think that maybe, what Illyria mentioned lingere in the shell, might enough to make a person. I mean, a vampire still has a personality, although very different, after losing it's soul.
I've always believed that the only thing that made Illyria like/want Wesley, was the remains of Fred in her.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 21, 2008 12:24:18 GMT -5
I've always believed that the only thing that made Illyria like/want Wesley, was the remains of Fred in her. Yes! That's what I think too. Someone who agrees with me
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brandonr
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Post by brandonr on Jun 21, 2008 12:28:10 GMT -5
I've always felt like Fred could come back. During S5, Illyria shifted to Fred a lot. While it was said that Fred's soul was destroyed, Illyria stated (I think) that the reason she was able to become Fred was because some of Fred's memories lingered in the "shell" that was her body. So maybe there are enough memories (obviously since when Illyria is Fred she looks, walks, acts, and talks like her) to make up for whatever part of her inner soul is missing--maybe the memories are her soul.
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antoniofjm
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Post by antoniofjm on Jun 13, 2009 3:37:35 GMT -5
If Season 6 would of happend Fred would of come back but since it didn't she's gone forever as it's explained in the comics.
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Post by The Night Lord on Jun 13, 2009 4:44:38 GMT -5
After reading the comic, I just like to think that Fred's soul has gone off to a better place, hopefully with Wesley's soul
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 13, 2009 15:56:15 GMT -5
The only reason we weren't able to test Angel's hypothesis about Fred's soul is because Giles stonewalled him when Angel called asking for Willow. I seriously think Willow could do it, assuming Fred's soul hasn't gone somewhere else as The Night Lord says.
But that just takes us down the "why do the Scoobies no longer trust Team Angel" road, and I don't think I'm prepared enough to handle that one just yet.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 13, 2009 16:09:03 GMT -5
You guys are ruining it (or maybe the comics are, I haven't read them)!!
What makes Fred's death so awful is the fact that her soul was apparently destroyed. They were able to bring back Angel, Buffy and Spike because they had a soul. And we all hope that Jenny, Joyce, Tara and Anya are in a better place now.
But Fred doesn't exist anymore, neither on Earth or any other dimension (hell, heaven, etc). She's gone. Illyria took her place. All that's left is her body, just a stupid shell.
This why her death was so dramatic, because to be able to mourn somebody properly you need to believe that they are somehow in a better place and maybe watching over us.
But fred is NOWHERE. She is non-existent.
And if they decided to bring her back in the comics, it's just another cheap twist a la Warren kinda thing.
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Post by vampireinrug on Jun 13, 2009 16:29:01 GMT -5
Like others have said, the only person who said that Fred's soul was destroyed is Dr. Sparow. In a world like the Buffyverse where there is an afterlife, the idea of a soul being destroyed is epicly unfair, and I don't like that idea at all. In fact I've been doubting it ever since the episode.
But yeah, Dr. Sparow is an evil character and saying that her soul is gone is in his best intrests, whether he's telling the truth or not. This alone makes what he's saying doubtful.
*Spoilers for After the Fall*
In ATF Wolfram and Hart was able to recruit Wesley to be their messenger boy because they offered him the hope of being reunited with Fred in the Afterlife. At one point Lorne says that Fred is the lucky one because she's in heavan and the rest of them are in hell. I think that both Lorne and the W&H conduit are more qualified than Dr. Sparow to speak about a person's soul or what happens in the afterlife. Then, at the end of the series (stop reading right now if you don't want spoilers) Angel feels a warm breeze whenever he starts to feel pessimistic about Wes and Fred being together in heavan.
At the end of the day there's no concrete evidence one way or the other, but based on After the Fall I think that it's more likely that Fred's soul is at peace somewhere.
As for whether or not she could be brought back, I guess it's possible theoreticly seeing as how she died a mystical death, but her body is being posessed by Illyria so that right there is a problem. Also it's doubtful that either Angel or Spike would want to do such a thing considering they both know what Buffy went through after being forcefuly pulled out of heavan.
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 13, 2009 16:35:56 GMT -5
Heh, Mat, we're not trying to cheapen Fred's death - her deterioration in A Hole in the World is mighty powerful, no doubt. We're just pointing out the simple facts - the only person who said that Fred's soul was destroyed was Sparrow, and he isn't really a reliable source, just a flunky. If Knox had said something about it, this whole conversation would be different, since he was Illyria's priest.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 13, 2009 16:47:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the info regarding Angel After the Fall.
It really annoys me that the comics, especially Angel After the Fall, are considered canon by the fans when they obviously destroy everything they did on the show.
Again I am not saying that it's impossible that Fred is still somewhere, as you said the Evil doctor couldn't be trusted anyway, but i'm just saying that the idea of Fred's soul being destroyed is a lot more appealing.
I mean what about the consequences theme?
If they keep bringing back the characters that they kill, what's the point of killing them? It becomes pointless.
Same with Fred. Her death is the ONLY death in the whole Buffyverse that had me shed a few tears... because I knew she was not going anywhere. Her soul was going to be wiped off the Earth. And it's the worst possible thing you could imagine for somebody's fate if you believe in Heaven.
So now the writers are like "hey fans! wait a minute, here's a christmas present, we're all gonna pretend the doctor was lying and now Fred's soul is actually in Heaven, how about that?".
It makes me sick. I feel cheated, like I cried over nothing. They make good drama and then they ruin it to please some fans.
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 13, 2009 16:56:05 GMT -5
Well as I understand it, Joss would have had Illyria doing a Superman/Clark Kent thing in Angel's sixth season, had it gone on (does anybody have that interview? It was with Amy Acker). My understanding of what happened is that Illyria "fused" with Fred, overtaking her personality and perhaps even integrating into her soul. I think, rather than reviving Fred, it would be 10x more interesting to explore the duality of the character, the fact that she is no longer Fred but not the true Illyria either. They are defined by each other now instead of being separate entities. I think that would work best instead of just outright reviving Fred.
Although I suspect the only way we'll ever truly understand The Old Ones is if we a) revive another Old One or b) bring The First Evil into Angel's world.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 13, 2009 17:05:23 GMT -5
Well as I understand it, Joss would have had Illyria doing a Superman/Clark Kent thing in Angel's sixth season, had it gone on (does anybody have that interview? It was with Amy Acker). My understanding of what happened is that Illyria "fused" with Fred, overtaking her personality and perhaps even integrating into her soul. I think, rather than reviving Fred, it would be 10x more interesting to explore the duality of the character, the fact that she is no longer Fred but not the true Illyria either. They are defined by each other now instead of being separate entities. I think that would work best instead of just outright reviving Fred. Although I suspect the only way we'll ever truly understand The Old Ones is if we a) revive another Old One or b) bring The First Evil into Angel's world. I like the duality idea better indeed because it still means Fred is gone but we still get a glimpse of her sometimes thru Illyria's personality. I just hate happy endings (unless they're damn well written). Sad endings provides much more material to reflect on and sometimes to cry on. Crying is good. Unfortunately I hardly never cry, so I'm desperate for those tear-jerking moments on television!
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 13, 2009 17:15:31 GMT -5
I hear ya. And Fred's death really was moving because she was the innocence of the show - it's like if Willow had died in Buffy.
I'm serious, man. Man-tears all over the place. (But I still re-watch A Hole in the World/Shells. Fantastic episodes.)
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 13, 2009 17:20:18 GMT -5
We should create a poll about wether people want Fred's soul to be in Heaven or to be really destroyed like the doctor said.
Just another sick idea of mine but I really wanna know if people think Fred's soul still being somewhere cheapens the story that was told in the first place.
Is it possible to add the poll to this thread? Who created it? VampSlayer?
... Please? ;D
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jun 13, 2009 23:28:31 GMT -5
I think that Cordy/Anya/Wesley have more of a possibility than poor Fred...
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 14, 2009 3:56:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the info regarding Angel After the Fall. It really annoys me that the comics, especially Angel After the Fall, are considered canon by the fans when they obviously destroy everything they did on the show. ATF was co-plotted by Whedon, and based on the plans for the real sixth season. I agree there's been some crappy decisions, Warren particularly, but don't blame the "comics"; it's all Joss.
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