Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Nov 1, 2008 14:43:48 GMT -5
There's one thing I didn't get about Bad Cordy and it REALLY bothers me. Could anybody help me with that??
In season 4, when exactly did Cordelia turn evil or let's put it this way when did Jasmine start to control her? The whole story about Cordy's amnesia and then her sleeping with Connor and stuff really got me confused. And yet I watched every single episode.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Nov 1, 2008 14:45:24 GMT -5
I think ever since she became "part demon" the demon was waiting to come out of her....that demon being Jasmine.
So she really "started" being evil once she came down from being a higher being I think.
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Post by Wyndam on Nov 1, 2008 15:20:34 GMT -5
Yeah when she was a higher being, Jasmine maneuvered herself into Cordy's body, before Cordy was returned to Earth. On the trip back, Jasmine and Cordy both forgot who they were, so Cordy was normal (well normal except for the amnesia), until "Spin the Bottle," when she regained her memories, allowing Jasmine to wake up and take control over her.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Nov 1, 2008 19:29:41 GMT -5
Yeah when she was a higher being, Jasmine maneuvered herself into Cordy's body, before Cordy was returned to Earth. On the trip back, Jasmine and Cordy both forgot who they were, so Cordy was normal (well normal except for the amnesia), until "Spin the Bottle," when she regained her memories, allowing Jasmine to wake up and take control over her. Wow that's totally twisted. But who decided that Cordy should come back to Earth? The Powers That Be? Knowing that Jasmine was trapped in her body? I thought Connor and Cordy having sex together triggered the whole thing... It's so confusing. So that means that Jasmine was looking for someone Cordelia could sleep with because she knew that her only way to free herself would be if Cordelia gave birth to her...
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Nov 1, 2008 22:26:40 GMT -5
Yeah when she was a higher being, Jasmine maneuvered herself into Cordy's body, before Cordy was returned to Earth. On the trip back, Jasmine and Cordy both forgot who they were, so Cordy was normal (well normal except for the amnesia), until "Spin the Bottle," when she regained her memories, allowing Jasmine to wake up and take control over her. Wow that's totally twisted. But who decided that Cordy should come back to Earth? The Powers That Be? Knowing that Jasmine was trapped in her body? I thought Connor and Cordy having sex together triggered the whole thing... It's so confusing. So that means that Jasmine was looking for someone Cordelia could sleep with because she knew that her only way to free herself would be if Cordelia gave birth to her... This, my friend, is one of the reasons why season four is very bad. Well, at least when they try to explain all the crap they couldn't explain. Bad writers.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Nov 3, 2008 17:43:39 GMT -5
Wow that's totally twisted. But who decided that Cordy should come back to Earth? The Powers That Be? Knowing that Jasmine was trapped in her body? I thought Connor and Cordy having sex together triggered the whole thing... It's so confusing. So that means that Jasmine was looking for someone Cordelia could sleep with because she knew that her only way to free herself would be if Cordelia gave birth to her... This, my friend, is one of the reasons why season four is very bad. Well, at least when they try to explain all the crap they couldn't explain. Bad writers. This explanation actually makes more sense. Bad writing. But if anybody figured it all out and can give me another explanation, more than welcome! But bad writing for sure.
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Nov 3, 2008 18:00:46 GMT -5
My theory was that once Jasmine had taken control of Cordy's body up in the higher plane she sent them both back to earth and then obviously forgot everything and was trapped inside Cordelia until "spin the bottle" and then BAM...Evil Cordy rises and we don't see normal Cordy again until season 5. I was confused at one point but asked around the foruma dn filled ina few gaps and now I understand it all.This doesn't make the whole Jasmine arc any better it just helps...
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Nov 5, 2008 16:30:35 GMT -5
This, my friend, is one of the reasons why season four is very bad. Well, at least when they try to explain all the crap they couldn't explain. Bad writers. This explanation actually makes more sense. Bad writing. But if anybody figured it all out and can give me another explanation, more than welcome! But bad writing for sure. Well, there are a lot of inconsistencies throughout season four. The prime example of the bad writing is when they try to explain the events throughout the show as being "planned" and "everything connecting" and "the characters are just pawns on a chess board being moved without will" for the birth of Jasmine. Um, then what did the scary Beast/Rock Monster have anything to do with Jasmine and when did the sun being blocked out come into the mix? Cause those things NEVER connected to Jasmine.
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Post by Wyndam on Nov 5, 2008 16:38:55 GMT -5
This explanation actually makes more sense. Bad writing. But if anybody figured it all out and can give me another explanation, more than welcome! But bad writing for sure. Well, there are a lot of inconsistencies throughout season four. The prime example of the bad writing is when they try to explain the events throughout the show as being "planned" and "everything connecting" and "the characters are just pawns on a chess board being moved without will" for the birth of Jasmine. Um, then what did the scary Beast/Rock Monster have anything to do with Jasmine and when did the sun being blocked out come into the mix? Cause those things NEVER connected to Jasmine. Jasmine wanted the Beast to come and threaten L.A. so that she could be its savior when she was "born."
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Post by henzINNIT on Nov 5, 2008 16:59:36 GMT -5
The beast was an ideal unstoppable yet easily manipulated foe used to keep the heroes off guard and distracted from Cordy's pregnancy. His link to Angelus was used to get rid of Angel.
It was the apocalyptic rain of fire that the Beast brought forward that led to Jasimne's conception.
The lazy writing is mostly explained away by Jasmine's arrogance. She had the world following her plan for generations and got reckless.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Nov 5, 2008 18:01:48 GMT -5
But everything still doesn't connect. I dunno. Maybe I'm just thinking too much about it. It seemed like the writers just made up the explanation on the spot.
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Post by Wyndam on Nov 5, 2008 18:09:24 GMT -5
But everything still doesn't connect. I dunno. Maybe I'm just thinking too much about it. It seemed like the writers just made up the explanation on the spot. They kind of had to, with Charisma announcing her pregnancy so late, the creative team really had to scramble.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Nov 5, 2008 20:18:39 GMT -5
But everything still doesn't connect. I dunno. Maybe I'm just thinking too much about it. It seemed like the writers just made up the explanation on the spot. They kind of had to, with Charisma announcing her pregnancy so late, the creative team really had to scramble. You can totally tell. That's too bad because I like it when everything's connected in a show and everything falls back into place at some point.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Nov 5, 2008 22:41:53 GMT -5
Jasmine wanted the Beast to come and threaten L.A. so that she could be its savior when she was "born." That's an interesting theory I haven't heard before. The one flaw in it that I see, tho, is that the Beast had already been defeated by the time Jasmine showed up, and yet everyone still fell under her power and viewed her as their savior. So in that case, was the Beast really necessary at all? The most common justification given for the Beast/rain of fire/permanent midnight/Angelus stuff is that it was all a distraction to keep Team Angel busy and distracted from Cordy's pregnancy. But, I mean, overkill much? And considering that Angelus nearly killed her, her brilliant misdirection scheme (if that's what it was) nearly backfired on her in a majorly spectacular fashion.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 6, 2008 0:59:44 GMT -5
Except that the Beast essentially "caused" the pregnancy... since Cordy and Connor snuggled the night of the rain of fire. The whole comfort sex shebang (wow... that's never sounded quite that inappropriate). But it did allow her to hide it for a while. But if it was a smokescreen... it was pretty overkill. Unless... all those apocalyptic events were required... maybe Jasmine could only be conceived on a night of gloom and doom, by a possessed mommy, and a beat-up scared daddy. Teen angst makes for some vigorous snuggling.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Nov 7, 2008 1:39:31 GMT -5
Except that the Beast essentially "caused" the pregnancy... since Cordy and Connor snuggled the night of the rain of fire. The whole comfort sex shebang (wow... that's never sounded quite that inappropriate). But it did allow her to hide it for a while. But if it was a smokescreen... it was pretty overkill. Unless... all those apocalyptic events were required... maybe Jasmine could only be conceived on a night of gloom and doom, by a possessed mommy, and a beat-up scared daddy. Teen angst makes for some vigorous snuggling. Well, if it's that last option, then yeah: the Beast was necessary. (But then how does Angelus fit in as a "crucial" piece of her plan?) But if she just needed to sleep with him, regardless of the circumstances, then come on. She's hot, and he's 18 and not getting any. Unless he got knocked on the head and sent into a coma just beforehand, he was sleeping with her, no matter what! ;D
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Post by wenxina on Nov 7, 2008 14:09:49 GMT -5
I really don't think that Angelus was really necessary for anything, except to stir things up a bit. Essentially, the big smoke screen. Angel would have figured things out eventually, and getting him out of the way sounded like a good idea at the time, probably. Also, Jasmine probably miscalculated, and figured that she could control Angelus, get him to help wipe out potential trouble makers (i.e. Team Angel). She just didn't figure him to be quite the wildcard. Which doesn't quite make sense, since Cordy had seen all of Angel's past, and when she got her memory back, it would have been pretty obvious that Angelus was too much of a gamble. But then again... maybe Jasmine figured herself to be a "maverick" (take a shot!) and try anyway. She was pretty arrogant.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Nov 8, 2008 12:14:09 GMT -5
I think Jasmine/Cordy wanted Angel out of the way and took Angel's soul. Angelus wouldn't try to kill Jasmine/Cordy but Angel would, ergo, get rid of Angel and his soul before the birth.
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buffyfest
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Post by buffyfest on Nov 13, 2008 14:29:09 GMT -5
You know I'm really glad this discussion is here because this is probably one of the most popular topics within our group at Buffyfest. I'd say that it comes up at least once a month either online or in person. We just can't stop talking about it. And yes, it's true...when we get together in real life (which is very often) the Buffyverse is still all we talk about. It's messed up.
Anyway, even though it does seem half assed and lazy writing and washed away by what Skip says, etc....I personally still love season 4. I love that it all takes place in like 3 weeks and the high drama of it. I can be convinced by it too, to a point, because I think there is evidence that Jasmine started a lot earlier. We know that it started as early as The Trial because Jasmine mentioned Angel needing to earn a life to help her arrival - and that life was Connor's (and in turn hers) since it couldn't be Darla's. Michelle has a theory about season 1 which I'll let her explain.
I do think Cordy wasn't right in terms of Jasmine since Skip demonized her. I find that comforting because I can explain a lot on her "glowy floatiness" and semi-relationship with Angel away by knowing that it wasn't really her after that the birthday demonization. She was something Jasmine-disguised-as-the-powers told her she was. I love Cordy to death but it does make a LOT of sense when Skip speechifies that Cordelia Chase was not a higher being. I think she did one of the most self-less things in the verse when she gave away her fame and sitcom and life free of demons to save Angel...but even Buffy didn't get "higher being" status so it makes sense to me. Maybe it's a fanwank. Maybe it's a retcon on the creators part...but I believe Skip when he says past things were mastered by a puppeteer. There is potential for a lot of good in that idea. They just screwed it up a little.
I still don't get the why Jasmine needed Angelus, though. That is the biggest hole of them all.
I can totally get down with this thinking. "Jasmine simply making a mistake" in Angelus is prolly the best theory I've ever heard. I wish they'd said that in the show...it would've prevented a lot of confusion over the years.
plus Ha! She's a maverick.
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Post by henzINNIT on Nov 13, 2008 17:50:22 GMT -5
Wanting it all was Jasmine's character.
The maticulous plan, the overblown arrival, the temple she requested lol; Vanity. She needed Angel out of the picture, and Angelus was an intruiging challenge; and a more interesting henchman than the Beast (kinda like Sith - always eyeing up the next apprentice).
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