There's still 1 thing I didn't get about Bad Cordy

[buffyfest]

The strange thing is as soon as Angel saw Jasmine he was captivated like everyone else. So that would've happened no matter what. I guess if he cut Cordy's head off it wouldn't have had the chance to happen, hence the getting rid of AngelAngelus part.

I often think he should've just cut Cordy's pretty head off.

[dane5by5]

Whenever this topic comes up, which it seems to with frequency, I always defend this season to the end, especially against attacks of "bad writing". I feel season four was the strongest season of Angel, it captured the essence, the sadness, the nihilism, while at the same time playing out like a thriller with the reveal to the audience of Cordelia's turn. And like Buffyfest, I also like that it takes place in such an abbreviated time frame. I usually accuse the people who think this season was poorly written of needing everything spelt out in explicit terms, but some people in this thread have good arguments.

To answer the question, I think Cordelia was evil after the memory spell in "Spin The Bottle", I think what Skip said was mostly true, that Cordelia was manoeuvred to a high plane so Jasmine could possess her. The role of The Beast and Angelus are suspect to interpretation, I felt like Evil Cordy thought she could use Angelus as a pawn and even though she knew his history, she overestimated her control, like others have said, she had an arrogance about her. Either that, or she released Angelus to keep the team on their toes and off her case. The Beast was her pawn, I don't think she expected Angelus to take him out so quickly, and even though he did, it didn't turn out too horribly for her.

[toxicslayer]

I thought it was pretty clear that, when the demon's eyes opened after Lorne's potion kicked in, Cordelia was no longer in control.

[buffyfest]

yes, what dane said!

And I'm not sure why everyone goes on and on about season 5 because it certainly lacks a certain darkness and intrigue that season 4 excelled at. I'll always favor the serial stuff over monster of the week format and season 4 is the ultimate in serial. Sure there is a lot of creepiness (tinkly piano of ConCord sex, etc), but some of the craziest unexpected moments came from 4. Cordy stabbing Lilah in the neck comes to mind first.

The only really truly bad part to season 4, in my opinion, was that horrendous black beaded fringe outfit that poor Cordy had to wear for 3 episodes in a row or whatever. Charisma Carpenter must've pissed someone off good over there.

[wenxina]

Nov 17, 2008 23:06:41 GMT -5 buffyfest said:

The only really truly bad part to season 4, in my opinion, was that horrendous black beaded fringe outfit that poor Cordy had to wear for 3 episodes in a row or whatever. Charisma Carpenter must've pissed someone off good over there.

That's called crapping on the wardrobe department by showing up with a baby bump, with very little notice.
The gods of fashion frown upon such discourtesy, and as her punishment... said outfit, 3 eps in a row. Also... I mean, if you didn't get it already at this point, they were trying to hint at evil Cordy; "She's wearing a hideous outfit... it's not Cordy, you daft vampire with the stupid hair that goes straight up!"

[Angelsgirl]

I've always been intrigued as to when Charisma announced her pregnancy?? I mean it takes quite a long time for a woman to start "showing" and she would (or should) have know long before that....so did she keep it a secret for too long? Or were the writers just that lazy??

I don't want to trample on the writers because they have done wonders but if you take Alias as an example, Jennifer Garner was pregnant during Season 5 and the writers did a great job of making it part of the show, IMO.

[darthrosenberg9]

Okay, here's my take on it. You may think some of it is a stretch, but it’s how I’ve chosen to fill in the gaps.

It is heavily influence by something Jasmine said in "Peace Out":

[glow=red,2,300]"Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart."[/glow]

From that one line, and from the complete lack of appearance or mention of any other PTB, I've kind of assumed that a lot (if not all) of the times the Powers intervened, it was actually just Jasmine. If you accept that, then her appearance is the climax that the entire series had been building up to up until then.

So, with that in mind, I've always thought that Jasmine's plan starts back in "Faith, Hope and Trick" when Angel is mysteriously brought back from the hell dimension. We are told that the Powers had taken an interest in Angel, and knew that they need him for something more in the future. Of course, by Jasmine's earlier line, we can deduce that it was mainly Jasmine who sent Angel back to Earth, rather than a collective effort on the part of the Powers. Now, it's entirely possible that Jasmine convinced the other Powers to do it, but she's proven more than once that she can intervene on her own without their help.

The next incident related to Jasmine would be in "Amends" when The First tries to convince Angel to kill himself. At this time, it seems unclear why The First wants Angel dead, but when Season Four of Angel comes around, and The First appears as Darla, it's clear that It is intent on stopping Jasmine's peace-on-Earth from coming to fruition. If we consider that The First is simultaneously planning Its own world domination/apocalypse, it makes perfect sense that It would oppose a Power's presence on Earth. I believe that The First ses through Angel's mysterious return, and realizes Jasmine's scheme. Realizing what she eventually plans to do, The First then tries to get Angel to kill himself. As a last resort, It later tries Its hardest to stop Connor from sacrificing the virgin that brings Jasmine to fruition.

The next time Jasmine intervenes is when she (as a Power) bestows the visions upon Doyle ("Hero"), who she then directs towards Angel ("City Of"). Through the Oracles, she ensures that Angel remains both a vampire ("I Will Remember You") AND unassociated with Buffy so that he can eventually father Connor. Next up, she directs Doyle to pass on his visions to Cordelia, her desired host. The dangers to Cordy's health brought on by the visions eventually set her up to need to upgrade to her part demon status ("Birthday"), which makes her body Jasmine-inhabitable. The events of "Birthday" also lead up to Skip's convincing Cordy that she deserves to ascend to a higher plane, where Jasmine will be able to infect/possess her. Also, by transferring the visions to Cordy, Jasmine makes it impossible for Cordelia to separate herself from Angel prior to the birth of Connor.

I imagine that she is also orchestrating Wolfram and Hart’s actions when they resurrect Darla, but the details are irrelevant. She needs Darla to be human because it is necessary for Angel to try to save her in “The Trial.”

Another important aspect to pay attention to is the type of visions that The Power(s)/Jasmine send Cordy over the years. They slowly take a toll on her personality, evolving her into the kind of woman who would choose helping the helpless over her own dreams (“Birthday”). If Season One Cordelia had been forced to choose between stardom and visions/demondom, there is no question in my mind which direction she would go. Perhaps the most important purpose of the visions is to lead Angel directly to Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne, and Fred over the years. Each of these characters plays an important role in the events that lead up to Jasmine’s birth. In fact, the only character who Angel isn’t directly led to is Wesley. Though, one could argue that meeting Wesley was the reason that Jasmine initially sends Angel back to Sunnydale instead of sending him directly to L.A., where she needs him to be.

Lorne plays an especially important role in Jasmine’s conception. Angel needs to meet Lorne so that he can direct Angel and Darla to the trials (“The Trial”). The trial, of course, is the most important event in Jasmine’s scheme. Angel has to survive the trials in order to earn a new life for Darla. Unfortunately, she is not able to receive her reward because she has already been granted a second chance at life by Wolfram and Hart (“To Shanshu in L.A.”). The life that she is given in “The Trial” later manifests in the form of the ensouled Connor after she and Angel have sex (“Reprise”).

It is also necessary for Darla to tear Angel Investigations apart. It is of utmost importance to Jasmine that Angel reaches so dark a place that he is willing to sleep with Darla and risk breaking his curse and transforming into Angelus once more. This suggests that Jasmine has also influenced the arrival of Drusilla, as well as the resurrecting and eventual re-siring of Darla (“The Trial”). How she influences these events is unclear, but it is clear that she is very aware of them as they occur. Technically, Jasmine could even have been scheming long enough to be responsible for Angel gaining his soul—and therefore becoming a suitable grandfather for her—but there is no direct evidence to support this. It is far more likely that she is simply aware of Angel’s “condition” and opts to take advantage of it.

Through the visions, Jasmine influences early on the events that lead to the formation of Angel Investigations. It is important that Gunn and Wesley are both involved in the agency at the peak of Angel’s harassment at the hands of Darla and Drusilla. Because it is impossible for Angel to have both Cordelia and Darla (the two most important players in Jasmine’s conception) at the same time, it is important that Cordelia has a strong support system to fall back on once she has been abandoned by Angel (“Reunion”). If Gunn, Wesley, and Cordelia did not have a strong familial relationship at the time that they are fired by Angel, they would not stay together and maintain the business the way that they do (“Redefinition”). This is especially notable because it is of utmost importance that Cordelia always be close to Angel in order for Jasmine to come into being.

Another strange way Jasmine utilizes the visions is for a protective purpose. In both “Parting Gifts” (Cordelia’s first vision) and “Epiphany,” Jasmine sends visions that warn Cordelia about dangers that threaten her safety. Jasmine’s attempts to protect her future host body are successful, but barely. It is also notable that in both cases, external forces (i.e. clients), and not the visions, were what endangered Cordelia in the first place.

It seems that Jasmine may also have had something to do with the enscribing of the Nyazian scrolls. Many of the events that are referred to in the prophecies refer to her. One can also argue that her arrival on Earth is the final event in the Tro-Clan chain. She most definitely had a part in the Nyazian prophecy that states that the child born of vampires will kill Sajahn. (Though this could be disputed because the prophecy does eventually come true in “Origin”). My reasoning behind her influence in the prophecy is based on what ultimately happens due to the series of events that occur in its name. Upon hearing the prophecy, Sajahn recruits Holtz to kill Angel and Darla while Darla is still pregnant with Connor (“Offspring”). Obviously, this goes against Jasmine’s plan, so she intervenes by establishing the mystical barrier that surrounds Darla’s womb. Also, by carefully limiting the barrier to Darla’s womb (“Quickening”), Jasmine allows for the eventual staking that brings “no birth, only death” (“Lullaby”). This protection’s source being a PTB would explain why no mystics or shamans can penetrate Darla’s womb. A prime example is found in “That Vision Thing,” when the Honduran shaman tells Darla that “[He] cannot help [her]. No man can. This is not meant to be known,” right before quickly recoiling. He may have reacted this way because Jasmine had blocked the knowledge in this dimension, much like she later does with information about The Beast. As far as Sajahn’s scheme, his altering of the Nyazian prophecies and deception of Holtz put all the pieces into place. Of course, Holtz’s betrayal of Sajahn is also necessary since it comes in the form of his kidnapping baby Connor and taking him to Quor’Toth, where he learns to hunt and to fend for himself. Upon his return, Cordelia is then able to use her Jasmine-given abilities to “purify” him. This purification is what jumpstarts Connor’s attraction to his mother/lover Cordelia.

Once the impregnated Darla is back in L.A. with the reunited Angel Investigations (whose recent visit to Pylea has introduced them to Fred), she is in the prime position to bestow the child upon Angel. Once the baby is safe and with Angel, after Darla’s sui-staking, Jasmine begins her work with Wesley, Gunn, and Fred. Fred’s choosing Gunn over Wesley is essential because it separates Wesley (the only one with the knowledge of how to translate the Nyazian scrolls) from the rest of the group. Due to his newfound isolation, Wesley acts rashly rather than consulting the rest of the team (“Sleep Tight”) when he kidnaps Connor. Wesley’s solitude makes conditions only too ripe for Justine (whose sister’s death may also have been part of Jasmine’s plan) to incapacitate him and to deliver the helpless Connor to Holtz.

Wesley’s separation from the group is also necessary because he is the best suited to discover Angel’s and Cordelia’s whereabouts before Jasmine intended them to be revealed. It is also necessary for the sake of Wesley eventually rejoining the group that he (and not Fred or Gunn) is the one to discover Angel at the bottom of the ocean. To this end, Connor works tirelessly to destroy all evidence of his attempted patricide. When Angel does return, he feels warmer towards Wesley and kicks his son out, which puts Connor in a prime position to take Cordelia in upon her return.

As for Cordelia, she is taken up to a higher plane, where she is slowly invaded by Jasmine. It is made clear that she serves no other purpose on the plane besides this possession. Only after all of Jasmine is inside of her does Cordelia find herself with enough power to intervene in actions occurring on Earth (“The House Always Wins”). This intervention, both unprecedented and unpredicted by the realm of the Powers leads to Cordelia’s banishment (being sent back to Earth). When she is sent back, however, something goes horribly wrong. Jasmine tries to take over Cordelia’s body during the interdimensional journey, but she fails. This is due to a safeguard placed by the other Powers against such possible occurrences of “piggybacking.” Now Cordelia’s body on Earth is neither being controlled by Jasmine nor Cordelia. Rather, the personality in control is a blank slate. This is why the amnesiac Cordy allows Lorne to read her, which Jasmine would never have permitted. It is important to note that this is where Jasmine’s plans being to go downhill. She is taken by surprise by the other Powers’ distrust of her, and she is fortunate that she gets beyond this point at all. Now that she is in a mortal body, it has become much harder to manipulate circumstances to her benefit. Jasmine is trapped within Cordelia’s body, and it is only by chance that Lorne reawakens her (“Spin the Bottle”). At her point of restoration, the horror on Cordy’s face is not horror from seeing The Beast like we are led to believe. It is actually Jasmine’s horror upon realizing how badly her plan has gone wrong. Fortunately, blank Cordy’s instinctual actions put Jasmine in a wonderful position in her relationship with Connor, which Jasmine immediately begins to exploit.

For the rest of Season Four, Jasmine’s actions are fairly evident. She summons The Beast, acts as the Beastmaster by sending It after the Ra-Tet. She casts a spell that erases all memory and evidence of The Beast’s existence. She drugs Angel in Gwen’s apartment, kills Manny while naked, and delivers his orb to The Beast, who uses it to block out the sun. She takes advantage of the Rain of Fire to seduce Connor. After having sex with the child of two vampires, she begins gestating a new body for herself (“Apocalypse, Nowish”). She then instructs The Beast to take out all of Wolfram and Hart, who she fears may be able to unearth information about her or The Beast (“Habeas Corpses”). Jasmine then uses fake visions/memories to convince the team to remove Angel’s soul (“Awakening”). She later steals the muo-ping and messes with Lorne’s mojo so that he is fooled by Angelus’ act after the fake re-ensouling spell that she suggests. She also kills Lilah (the last vestige of Wolfram and Hart) in order to prevent her from digging up any more otherwordly books on The Beast (“Calvary”).

Meanwhile, Jasmine is manipulating Connor and messing with his already volatile psyche. In Cordelia’s mortal body, Jasmine has a much harder time controlling people than she did from the higher plane. As the Beastmaster, she tries to control Angelus, whose connection to The Beast she exploits to release from within Angel. Jasmine doesn’t count on Angelus’ unpredictability, though, and she certainly doesn’t count on Wesley springing Faith from prison (“Salvage”). Jasmine visibly and vocally shows her contempt for Faith, whom she views as a direct threat, and is jealous of Connor’s attraction to her (“Release”). Jasmine also had no idea that Fred was going to solicit Willow’s assistance (“Orpheus”). Jasmine’s presence on Earth comes with a high price: a disconnection from the rest of the Powers, and her restriction to only being able to see through the eyes of one human, rather than millions (“Shiny Happy People”).

When Jasmine finally reveals her self-pregnancy, all hell breaks loose. Fearing that Lorne may succeed in regaining his powers, she tries to kill him, but is caught in the act by the rest of the team (“Players”). She takes advantage of Connor’s loyalty and naiveté, and runs away with him in the name of “their baby.” She forces him to sacrifice the virgin and to perform the blood ritual to expedite the birthing process. As a Power, she is able to see The First when it appears to Connor in the form of a reformed Darla. She then exploits his intolerance of magick by telling him that it is one of Angel’s spells (“Inside Out”).

Once Jasmine is manifest, she uses her powers of adoration and admiration to force everyone to love and obey her unquestioningly (“Shiny Happy People”). It is notable that Jasmine is able to enslave a large percentage of humankind without any repercussions or intervention from the remaining Powers. This, in my mind, is concrete evidence that they have lost faith in mankind, and have given up hope of their eventual redemption. (The only evidence against their uninvolvement is the imprisonment of Billy Blim (“Billy”), but, in Skip suggests that even that was a part of Jasmine’s scheme). Cordelia is left comatose and lifeless for months until the remaining Powers intervene (possibly for the first time in the series) by giving her astral body physical form in “You’re Welcome.” Cordelia says that the Powers “owed her one.” It seems that it took Jasmine’s apocalyptic fiasco to turn their attentions back to our dimension. Even after such disastrously Earth-shattering results, all they can muster is one day-long favor that is actually self-serving in nature. This also explains why Angel only receives one vision from the Powers (“Power Play”), rather than frequent ones. The visions had all come from Jasmine, not from the collective Powers.

[jason321]

Thats probably what the writers had in mind when they tried to tie the entire mythology together in "Inside Out." Its all waaaaaay too much tho (to the extent that people are still asking what the hell happened 5 years later), which is what makes Angel S4's story such a Wallbanger ( tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger ). Still love most of it anyway. Just not the explanation.

[buffyfest]

Wow, darthrosenberg9, that was amazingly in depth. I never once considered Jasmine being the sole Power ...sending all of the visions from the beginning. That's very sad, for our heroes. And imagining Jas as the reason for Angel's return from his 100 years of hell is great continuity. Like scary great continuity. I can only wish the creators had half of your explanation in mind.

My fellow Buffyfest blogger Michelle is going to have a field day with this!

and Heh! "wallbanger". Poor season 4.

[michellebuffyfest]

Tee's right. I'm all over this. You're analysis, darthrosenberg9, is in depth and makes a lot of sense. It's actually supports the reason why I get annoyed by the Jasmine story. I hate to think of Angel as just a pawn and that he has no free will and it seems to give too much power to Jasmine and not enough to our hero. I did a similar analysis, only mine focuses on "To Shanshu in LA". It sets up the rest of the Angel Series: Darla, Conner, Cordelia, Jasmine, Shanshu. Everything in the Scroll is part of the arc of each season from now on.

A couple of things worth mentioning:

1. When Angel kills Voca at the end of the episode and slashes his face worms come out, just like Jasmine's true face.

2. Check out this dialogue:

Voca: "Angel! I am summoned for the raising - the very thing that was to bring this creature down to us -tear him from the Powers That Be - and he - has the scroll."
Lilah: "We're not unaware of the irony."
Voca: "He is in the possession of the scroll. His connection to the Powers That Be is complete."
Lilah: "He hasn't had time to make a full study of the text."
Voca: "No, and he won't. All avenues to the Powers shall be cut off from him and the scroll returned to us."

Is this a reference to Jasmine being a PTB and her cutting off his power through Cordelia?

3. Here is what the scroll says when Wesley is curing Cordelia in the hospital:

Wesley: "And if the beast shalt find thee, and touch thee, thou shalt be wounded in they soul - and thou shalt know madness. - The beast shalt attack and cripple thee and thou shalt know neither friend nor family. - But thou shalt undo the beast. Thou shalt find the sacred words of Anatole and thou shalt be restored. - Three times shalt thou say these words: unbind - unbind - unbind."

Even though they cure her, this actually comes to pass. If you think about it, the entire prophecy is fulfilled. It's possible that Cordelia was taken over by Jasmine at this point.

4. When Angel is looking at the scroll in the beginning of the episode, there's a picture of a Dragon. Could it be the dragon from NFA? Does that mean that Angel has actually gotten the shanshu in After the Fall?

[darthrosenberg9]

Wow! I never thought about Vocah's involvement! That's a really interesting angle!

Except it upsets me even more to think that Cordelia is evil for all of seasons one through four. This is the only part that I'm uncomfortable with. I see the connection between Vocah, the Powers, and Darla. I don't think Jasmine herself was present yet, though. Or do you mean something other than Jasmine taking Cordy over in "To Shanshu in L.A."?

If that's the case, though, I think that Jasmine goes to great, illogical lengths to imitate Cordelia's personality for years. Cordy does change quite a bit over the years----but she seems completely out of (Jasmine's) character in Jasmine-related episodes, like "Birthday" and "Tomorow." Of course, it's hard to prove any of these theories.

Also, I'm glad you liked my analysis

I'm sorry it was so long---I just stumbled onto this thread yesterday, and decided to lay out my theory--but it ended up taking me hours and hours to complete...and once I was done writing it, it seemed wasteful to let it go to waste.

I probably should have outlined it the way michelle outlined hers. Sorry everyone! I know it's long!

[darthrosenberg9]

I'm currently re-watching "To Shanshu in L.A.," and something MAJORLY stood out just now.

Re: The Scrolls of Abergian

CORDELIA: Well, hurry up and figure out what it says about Angel, 'cause - I wanna know what it says about me. If there's torrid romance in my future - massive wealth? If I have to I'll settle for enviable fame.

WESLEY: It's an ancient sacred text, not a magic eight ball.


How fitting that Wesley would tell Cordelia that a magic eight ball is how her future actions will be revealed, especially when we consider the exchange in "Players":

LORNE: (takes a white cloth off of a ball—a Magic 8 Ball—and shakes the ball) Has Cordy been a bad, bad girl? (When Lorne turns the Magic 8 Ball over, the triangle inside reads Definitely.)






After watching the episode, I agree that the Abergian passage about "the beast" could definitely refer to Jasmine and The Beast---but with the mention of Anatole---It sounds more like it's specifically about Vocah. I have to think about it more.

[michellebuffyfest]

Nov 19, 2008 22:18:22 GMT -5 darthrosenberg9 said:

I see the connection between Vocah, the Powers, and Darla. I don't think Jasmine herself was present yet, though. Or do you mean something other than Jasmine taking Cordy over in "To Shanshu in L.A."?

The way I see it, Cordy is inevitably tied into the destinies of Darla who is tied in to the destiny of Jasmine. I agree that Jasmine wasn't present inside Cordy in "To Shanshu in LA" but i think that the events were set in motion once Cordy got the vision sickness. Wes might have reversed the spell, but Cordy was forever changed after that. She became a willing player in Angel's "game" and even an eager one. Jasmine needed a "changed" Cordy to think she was going to be a higher being and "To Shanshu" set up that kind of personality. I hope that makes sense!

I, too, don't like the idea that she was somehow altered that early in the show, not because Cordy is my favorite character, but because as I said in the other post it gives Jasmine so much power and plays the fate card too much.

Whatever the case, it's amazing that the season finale of the first season of Angel has so much packed into it.

[darthrosenberg9]

I agree. Watching it again last night with everything Jasmine-related in mind, it really is impressive!

[diabeticdude202]

I don't think Cordelia ever came back after her so called "ascension" but if she did, the spell that Lorne did awakened the evil within -- so I guess ever since she became part demon it was bound to happen. You can all blame Doyle for this -- giving her the visions and all, lol. Nah, I wish he didn't get killed in season 1, he would've been a great character if he was more explored throughout the series.

[darthrosenberg9]

I know! I've always thought that Doyle's character left before we knew enough about him. Of course, compared to other characters, like the Guardian or Book, we should just be grateful that we knew as much about him as we did before he died.

So, diabeticdude202, you think that Cordelia's last true moment was when she helps Angel beat the slot machine in "The House Always Wins," and that the last scene of that episode is already Jasmine?

[snizapman6294]

i assumed that it was lorne's mojo combined with the "higher plane high". me and my friends refer to this as the feeling cordy was having after she left the higher plane.

[diabeticdude202]

In the fourth season of Angel, Skip had said that all their actions were being controlled, so to speak, that they were planned out/mapped out. In "To Shanshu in L.A" when the guy bumped into her and gave her all those visions, I rekon that that connected her to a new power. I believe that their actions weren't controlled before that but are after.

Think about it, Cordelia is Angel's connection to the Powers that Be and so if another connection was made they could control all their actions. In doing so, every that had happened to them from seasons 2-5 were being played out.

Also, another thought I had about Jasmine, also related to "To Shanshu in L.A" is that the connection made inside Cordy was Jasmine and that she was the one that had this connection to another power which was how that power could give her visions and stuff -- bare with me now. Jasmine is all about world peace and things like that and all the visions Cordy was having was the complete opposite. I rekon the PTB were trying to fight off the Jasmine possession inside of her but died out when Wesley did the chant to cure her.

Then, when Skip made her half demon, Jasmine grew inside of her, infecting her more. And, the longer she stayed in the HIGHER PLANE or whatever it was called more and more of the Cordelia side was being drained away -- thereinlies the whole not remembering anything, which she would have been better off with suiting my theory because when Lorne done the spell and she remembered everything, the last bit of Cordelia struggling to hold on inside was killed off and there was nothing left but Jasmine to ultimately give birth to itself.

One last thing that I think is perfect for Cordelia's return in the fifth season was taken out of the third was this...

Skip: If you go back inside your body, you won't wake up. You will lie there, unable to move, unable to speak, until the next vision hits you and then you will die.

Once Jasmine gave birth to itself, Cordelia's soul was put back, but she was human. She was unable to move, speak, and all she did was lie there in the hospital bed. When she got the vision to put Angel back on his path she was able to complete the mission following the vision but then she died.

Everything was being mapped out, right from the start, whether or not the writers intended it, or didn't, it all fits together like a puzzle -- I'm still hoping for a movie with a happy ending not just "Let's go to work!"

[bullseye]

wait so when darla's ghost was convincing connor not to kill that girl; that was really the first?

[Wyndam]

Jan 17, 2009 10:58:49 GMT -5 bullseye said:

wait so when darla's ghost was convincing connor not to kill that girl; that was really the first?

Definitely not. That is just fan speculation. Darla's "ghost" was the PTB's until Joss or someone else official says otherwise (which they never will).