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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Mar 25, 2009 18:02:09 GMT -5
I don't fault him either, but I think that they(Lindsey and Ben) both had the human innocence that true demons lacked. Lindsey was always a bad guy, but there wasn't a tried and true "He's a demon so it's ok that I kill him" rule invoked. I just think it's a bit removed from regular demon killing--but he needed to be out of the picture. I thought "Angel" established that sometimes humans can be more evil than demons...I guess some people didn't get that even though it was practically smashed over our heads with sledgehammers throughout the series. So killing that nice soda-drinking demon that didn't want to hurt anyone is okay? But killing Lindsey, who made the decisions to be on the bad side AND hurt people, is not okay? Something is wrong there. Sometimes I get a little heated when this debate comes up. I mean, I know it's just a show...but being prejudice against a character and saying "well, he's just a demon...it's fine he died" really shows what you think of people.
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Post by Greer on Mar 25, 2009 20:23:24 GMT -5
I don't fault him either, but I think that they(Lindsey and Ben) both had the human innocence that true demons lacked. Lindsey was always a bad guy, but there wasn't a tried and true "He's a demon so it's ok that I kill him" rule invoked. I just think it's a bit removed from regular demon killing--but he needed to be out of the picture. I thought "Angel" established that sometimes humans can be more evil than demons...I guess some people didn't get that even though it was practically smashed over our heads with sledgehammers throughout the series. So killing that nice soda-drinking demon that didn't want to hurt anyone is okay? But killing Lindsey, who made the decisions to be on the bad side AND hurt people, is not okay? Something is wrong there. Sometimes I get a little heated when this debate comes up. I mean, I know it's just a show...but being prejudice against a character and saying "well, he's just a demon...it's fine he died" really shows what you think of people. What I really think of people? I never said that it was ok that any demon died on the show, just because they were demons. I was showing how things weren't always clear, like a lot of characters used the "Demon=bad, human=good" scenario. In no way do I think that is what should've happened or should happen. There's a gray area with everything. I'm not prejudiced at all.
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Mar 25, 2009 22:50:01 GMT -5
^ I agree with you Greer, and I too feel the same about Ben as well as Lindsey.
It was horrible that Lorne had to kill. You could see it breaking him. I felt bad for Lindsey. Maybe he didn't need to DIE. Maybe... I don't know. Human death is different to demon death. Well bad demon death. Good demons should't die either.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Mar 25, 2009 22:55:10 GMT -5
I thought "Angel" established that sometimes humans can be more evil than demons...I guess some people didn't get that even though it was practically smashed over our heads with sledgehammers throughout the series. So killing that nice soda-drinking demon that didn't want to hurt anyone is okay? But killing Lindsey, who made the decisions to be on the bad side AND hurt people, is not okay? Something is wrong there. Sometimes I get a little heated when this debate comes up. I mean, I know it's just a show...but being prejudice against a character and saying "well, he's just a demon...it's fine he died" really shows what you think of people. What I really think of people? I never said that it was ok that any demon died on the show, just because they were demons. I was showing how things weren't always clear, like a lot of characters used the "Demon=bad, human=good" scenario. In no way do I think that is what should've happened or should happen. There's a gray area with everything. I'm not prejudiced at all. I didn't read the entire thread. I just read this one. It seems like you imply that it's always "okay to kill a demon." Lindsey was always a bad guy, but there wasn't a tried and true "He's a demon so it's ok that I kill him" rule invoked. I just think it's a bit removed from regular demon killing--but he needed to be out of the picture. My emotions sometimes get the better of me . I apologize.
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 26, 2009 4:03:14 GMT -5
Actually I thought how Angel killed Lindsey was terrific, ruthless yet you know Lindsey had it coming, as Lorne says "I heard you sing".
Feel more sorry for Eve
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Post by Greer on Mar 26, 2009 6:27:53 GMT -5
I didn't read the entire thread. I just read this one. It seems like you imply that it's always "okay to kill a demon." Lindsey was always a bad guy, but there wasn't a tried and true "He's a demon so it's ok that I kill him" rule invoked. I just think it's a bit removed from regular demon killing--but he needed to be out of the picture. My emotions sometimes get the better of me . I apologize. It's cool. I can understand, Buffy things can get me riled up up at times(if I spelled riled up right...I don't think I've ever typed it up).
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Mar 26, 2009 22:52:20 GMT -5
Actually I thought how Angel killed Lindsey was terrific, ruthless yet you know Lindsey had it coming, as Lorne says "I heard you sing". Feel more sorry for Eve OH YEAH! I forgot that line that Lorne said. Yes, that makes Lindsey's death more okay, but I still wish Lorne didn't have to kill him. Poor Lorneycakes.
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 26, 2009 23:21:09 GMT -5
I think Angel having Lindsey taken out at all was showing that he felt that Angel knew he was threat all along. I dont think that Angel ever really thought that Lindsey was going to change and if he did, he knew by the time that Lindsey showed up bad again in S5 that he was hopeless. While I feel bad that Lorne had to take him out, everyone had to do their part. Lorne was put where he was needed and I dont feel that Angel had any doubt that Lorne would be alright again by the time S6 rolled around.
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Mar 29, 2009 5:07:54 GMT -5
Just cos someone can 'get over it', doesn't mean it makes it okay. I still think poor Lorne. He didn't sign up for tha. He's the most peaceful of all. And he shouldn't have been forced to get his hands dirty and his conscience sullied.
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 29, 2009 10:34:19 GMT -5
Just cos someone can 'get over it', doesn't mean it makes it okay. I still think poor Lorne. He didn't sign up for tha. He's the most peaceful of all. And he shouldn't have been forced to get his hands dirty and his conscience sullied. He agreed to do it though.
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Mar 29, 2009 10:46:27 GMT -5
He didn't really have a choice though, did he?
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 29, 2009 10:51:40 GMT -5
He didn't really have a choice though, did he? It's not like Angel would have killed Lorne if he declined to kill Lindsey. Lorne could have walked away at any point, but Lorne did do it. That means he at least agreed it had to be done.
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Apr 3, 2009 9:49:11 GMT -5
Agree to disagree? If you disagree to that... lol
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Apr 3, 2009 17:36:56 GMT -5
would HAVE to kill lorne? how so?
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Apr 4, 2009 19:12:59 GMT -5
hahahaha. Oh I misread. *phewww*
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 9, 2009 15:07:55 GMT -5
Obviously Lorne did not have to do it, but he was also tied to the group. He loved Angel and Co. and his alliance was with them. The group meant something to him so he wasnt going to walk away, he was going to do what had to be done and then leave to compose himself. I am sure Angel wasnt happy with giving him that task, but everyone had to do something.
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Post by menomegirl on May 12, 2009 14:23:10 GMT -5
Just dropping in from nowhere because this thread caught my eye. In answer to a question posed elsewhere: Why did I think Lindsey's death was damn fine storytelling. (and yes, I'm the one who said NFA was damn fine storytelling). Because it was. I watched the finale numerous times, along with 'Power Play', the episode preceding it. I think the latter half of season five was brilliantly written, acted and directed. Lindsey's death was just...awful. I walked into the spoiler posted on another board, so I knew it was going to happen. Part of me is glad I was prepared for it but part of me wishes it had been a total shock. As for why I think it was damn fine storytelling, well....mainly because it left so many unanswered questions behind. Did Angel ask Lorne to do it or did Lorne act alone? If Angel didn't ask Lorne, then why didn't Spike, Gunn or Illyria ask about Lorne or Lindsey in the alley? Why did Angel seek out Eve and tell her that Lindsey wasn't coming for her, if he hadn't asked Lorne to kill him? Why was Eve waiting there after Lindsey had asked her to get as far away as she could? Why did Lorne act like he disliked Lindsey when he so clearly did in season two? Why did he pull that trigger, when it went against everything he stood for, especially since he neither trusted or believed in Angel at that point? And last but by no means least...*why* did Angel do it? It was no different than shutting the door on those lawyers had been...it was a worse act, in fact, given that Lindsey was helping them at the time of his death and was not expecting it. You don't kill someone for something they *might* do. That's just outright murder. It was a betrayal of everything Angel had EVER stood for and let's be clear here-Angel had had several chances to help Lindsey in the past and for whatever reason, he chose not to. Repeatedly. Yet he helped Faith, a known murderer with supernatural power. Angel was supposedly all about saving souls...so...why? /NFA rant *g* Except, I'd like to add that Lindsey's motives during season five were never made clear. Yes, on the surface, they looked evil but were they? Lindsey never gave a damn about the Senior Partners or thier plans-Lilah was the brown-noser on that score. Lindsey also did not confirm he was trying to join the Circle of the Black Thorn-Wesley just assumed he was. One of the highlights of the season for me was 'You're Welcome' because Angel was working for Wolfram & Hart and Lindsey was fighting him. And I'd also like to add that "Angel: After the Fall" answered none of these questions. *sighs*
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 14, 2009 4:52:44 GMT -5
I think Lindsey was just as evil and selfish as in the first episode, where he would kill/ cause someone to die, for money and the use of a fancy comapny car. No wait, actually, in season 5 that wasn't his priority, it was to kill Angel.
Lindsey had proven over and over again that he was likely to hurt or kill people, if he could use it to his advantage. The only time I've seen him hesitate was when children and that guy he worked with in the mail-room where hurt. Killing him in Not Fade Away was right. I'm suprised it hadn't been done before. True, this shows how much Angel has changed since the beginning of the show, but it was the right thing to do. I'm just sad Lorne had to do it.
Lindsey was likely to do evil. That made it right to kill him.
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Post by menomegirl on May 18, 2009 19:35:59 GMT -5
Lindsey was likely to do evil. That made it right to kill him. The same could be said for Angel himself.
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Post by gumgnome on May 19, 2009 5:40:25 GMT -5
I think that it's a bum deal for Lindsay. In Seasons 1 & 2, he was one of my favourite characters, and I think the show seriously suffered for losing him and Holland in the same season at Wolfram & Hart, leaving Lilah holding the fort by herself practically. I was so happy to see him come back for S5, but felt he was totally wasted on the plot. When he dies, it felt to me like they'd realised they didn't really need him for the story after all and disposed of him. As to whether his potential for evil makes it right to kill him, I think it's very unfair. Angel never gives him the slightest chance from the very beginning of the series and I certainly feel that Lindsay is trapped to his fate and suffers as a result of it enough (losing his arm, ending up in the torture dimension for however long) to warrant giving him a chance to do good - something I feel Angel never really offers him beyond Season 1 (and even then half-heartedly).
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