Too graphic?

[rogue11]

Does anybody think that the After the Fall series was a bit over the top in terms of blood and gore. I mean there's stabbing and cutting, beheading and tearing heads off.
This seems a bit unnessary sometimes and takes away from some pages that can be used for character development.
The tv series never had this much gore and it was an awesome story, I just think that there's so much savage fighting when the tv series focues a lot more on the battles that each character faced with themselves.

[Emmie]

That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't really thought about it because of the Hell atmosphere. There really was a lot of gore, death and mayhem. Gratuitous? Perhaps in comparison to the show, yes a bit.

Which instances stand out to you the most?

[wenxina]

Realistic beheadings, disembowelment, etc are rather expensive special effects. Thus, a lot of these things happened offscreen, or at least out-of-frame, suggesting that it happened, rather than showing it outright. Even if we were to argue the PG-13 rating, the LotR franchise was rated PG-13, and there was a fair amount of stabbing, slicing, dicing, beheading, etc, so it still works. There were several instances of beheadings and such on the show, but considering that it was mostly vampires, it's kinda "sanitized" by having them turn to dust. But the few demonic beheadings and the such have been quite graphic. Not to mention the suggestion that certain Wolfram and Hart associates were returned in containers... again, expensive, but the suggestion of violence is still there,
Again, it's an issue of removing the budget problem from the equation. You could argue that it's gratuitous, but I guess I'll play devil's advocate and say that it's actually an expression of purity of vision. This is the way that Angel would have been, if it had been cheaper.
But there's also the factor that comic books don't reach nearly the same vast audience as TV does, and they are therefore more able to get away with a certain level of violence that may be deemed unpalatable for a show that aired in the prime time slot.

[Wyndam]

Plus if you look at what is on TV today, and I don't mean on HBO or Showtime, what is acceptable in terms of blood and gore has changed quite a lot since Buffy and Angel went off the air. Just look at Supernatural. That is one of the bloodiest shows on TV, and it is aimed at the same (or even slightly younger) audience that Angel was.

You also have to look at it in terms of suspended animation, since that is basically what comics are. On the show, if someone's neck is sliced or something, the editor may do a few quick cuts so you only see a second of it. If you take that same scene and pause the video when the neck is sliced open, it would certainly seem more gratuitous. Kind of the same thing with comics. Each panel is like a snap shot, so any scene where someone gets an arm cut off or whatever, it will stand out a little more because there are no quick edits to cut away from the gore.

Just one of the side effects of switching mediums.

[Brian Lynch]

I think some of it gets more graphic than the show, absolutely. We actually had to tone down some of the violence in SPIKE:ATF # 4, Franco redrew two panels.

That said, it's about an ex-vamp fighting for survival in hell. It's gonna get dark and messy.

[Emmie]

I agree that it's another symptom of the medium change. For all the gore that happened in After the Fall, I'm not sure if anything tops the two page MDHP Vampy Cat Play Friend. When a toy is ripping out eyeballs - yeesh! But the thing was that I kinda loved it in that instance. It was so violent and shocking to see a stuffed animal doing that (I guess I think of them as stuffed...). Just like seeing the puppets in Smile Time cursing and drinking. It upset expectations. Considering that After the Fall is in hell, I think it was pretty tame.

I've been thinking about the medium change effect recently regarding BUFFY and ANGEL. I think I've come up with an analogy for the writers of Season 8 in particular. They're Willow during the first half of Season 6. They have all this new power and are using the medium change of no limitations to do whatever they want because *anything* is possible.

"The thing about changing the world… once you do it, the world’s all different."

I think the medium change and the global change of the BUFFY story has been a hard adjustment for many fans. The identity of the series has become all about change. So it feels vastly different. And this is true for the writers as well. They're dealing with very different limitations to bringing the Season 8 story to life. I think we're witnessing an interesting experimental phase. They're trying new things. But I think that sometimes the new and brazen ideas can detract from the story.

And I'll beat that dead horse one more - the Tree People in ToYL. An LotR ripoff that didn't contribute to the story. All they served as was comic relief that took up space. Instead of bringing them in, I'd rather that Dawn and Xander bantered, then been faced with the Snake army attacking only to be rescued by the Slayer Squad at the last minute. Remember when the core characters dialogue was the most hilarious part of the show and not these super mechanical and mystical creations? The fairies, Mecha Dawn, Tree People - all being used for cheap laughs when I'd rather see the Core characters interacting with each other.

Ask yourself - were the Tree People a necessary part of the story? I think it detracted. And they were possible because Joss was writing with no budget. So that same 'no limitations' environment that allowed Buffy to go to the future, allowed for Joss to create a whole future set, also allowed him to just throw in random Tree People. Good and bad choices imo. And I think it was taking the easy way out, joke-wise. Oh let's ripoff LotR - that'd be hilarious! I'd rather we got some golden Dawn/Xander banter that went back 'n forth between serious and silly.

Bringing this full circle from my BUFFY tangential thoughts, I think After the Fall maintained a realistic environment and level of violence for the setting. If anything, I imagine they could have gone even darker and more graphic but they restrained themselves.

[Wyndam]

Good points Emmie, I completely agree (especially about the Tree people). Also, I think if Angel had gotten a 6th season, we would have seen the show pushed to the limit in terms of darkness and violence, since L.A. was going to have a post-Apocalyptic "Escape from New York" vibe to it.

[Emmie]

Wyndorflonium, our banners look really cool right next to each other. The dark and light, peace and violence dichotomies of Fred/Wes and Illyria/Wes. Even the spacing of the two banners is cool - Fred/Wes close together in mine, Illyria/Wes separated by a gun in yours. We should totally post immediately after each other all over SlayAlive.

[Wyndam]

Mar 10, 2009 23:35:52 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Wyndorflonium, our banners look really cool right next to each other. The dark and light, peace and violence dichotomies of Fred/Wes and Illyria/Wes. Even the spacing of the two banners is cool - Fred/Wes close together in mine, Illyria/Wes separated by a gun in yours. We should totally post immediately after each other all over SlayAlive.

Hehe, yes, very cool. We definitely should.

[The Night Lord]

Does anybody think that the After the Fall series was a bit over the top in terms of blood and gore. I mean there's stabbing and cutting, beheading and tearing heads off.

Hehe, nope. I've always enjoyed the violence in both TV shows, moreso on Angel cuz it has more violence. Call me psychotic, but I like some violence. Probably why I like Supernatural so much, but anyhow...I liked the violence in ATF and don't think it was too graphic. Besides, they're in Hell. It's meant to be violent

We actually had to tone down some of the violence in SPIKE:ATF # 4, Franco redrew two panels

Bugger lol

[Secret Scoobie]

I really musn't be very sensitive to this stuff...because I didn't notice it in ATF... or supernatural...

[rogue11]

I miss the intimate parts where the characters would interact wnon-violentyl with each other and learn more about themselves. Some of the best scenes in both the Buffy and Angel tv shows had nothing to do with violence. I think all the violence is just taking up some pages that could be dedicated to more emotional scenes. Darkness doesn't necessarily have to involve violence.

[Paul]

I can't say I ever thought AtF was particularly gory, but Season Eight certainly is. Aside from the obvious "Vampy Cat Play Friend", we've also got Skinless Warren and Renee's death, which is quite possibly the bloodiest Buffy moment ever. It doesn't bother me, but I have noticed it.

Mar 10, 2009 23:19:39 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I agree that it's another symptom of the medium change. For all the gore that happened in After the Fall, I'm not sure if anything tops the two page MDHP Vampy Cat Play Friend. When a toy is ripping out eyeballs - yeesh! But the thing was that I kinda loved it in that instance. It was so violent and shocking to see a stuffed animal doing that (I guess I think of them as stuffed...). Just like seeing the puppets in Smile Time cursing and drinking. It upset expectations. Considering that After the Fall is in hell, I think it was pretty tame.

I've been thinking about the medium change effect recently regarding BUFFY and ANGEL. I think I've come up with an analogy for the writers of Season 8 in particular. They're Willow during the first half of Season 6. They have all this new power and are using the medium change of no limitations to do whatever they want because *anything* is possible.

"The thing about changing the world… once you do it, the world’s all different."

I think the medium change and the global change of the BUFFY story has been a hard adjustment for many fans. The identity of the series has become all about change. So it feels vastly different. And this is true for the writers as well. They're dealing with very different limitations to bringing the Season 8 story to life. I think we're witnessing an interesting experimental phase. They're trying new things. But I think that sometimes the new and brazen ideas can detract from the story.

And I'll beat that dead horse one more - the Tree People in ToYL. An LotR ripoff that didn't contribute to the story. All they served as was comic relief that took up space. Instead of bringing them in, I'd rather that Dawn and Xander bantered, then been faced with the Snake army attacking only to be rescued by the Slayer Squad at the last minute. Remember when the core characters dialogue was the most hilarious part of the show and not these super mechanical and mystical creations? The fairies, Mecha Dawn, Tree People - all being used for cheap laughs when I'd rather see the Core characters interacting with each other.

Ask yourself - were the Tree People a necessary part of the story? I think it detracted. And they were possible because Joss was writing with no budget. So that same 'no limitations' environment that allowed Buffy to go to the future, allowed for Joss to create a whole future set, also allowed him to just throw in random Tree People. Good and bad choices imo. And I think it was taking the easy way out, joke-wise. Oh let's ripoff LotR - that'd be hilarious! I'd rather we got some golden Dawn/Xander banter that went back 'n forth between serious and silly.

Bringing this full circle from my BUFFY tangential thoughts, I think After the Fall maintained a realistic environment and level of violence for the setting. If anything, I imagine they could have gone even darker and more graphic but they restrained themselves.

I agree with the first part of this comment. Season Eight is a drastic change, and some readers will just not be able to accept that. I remember Joss saying before the series started that not everybody was going to like what they were planning to do. Oh well, their loss.

I simply do not share everybody's contempt for the "new and brazen ideas". I think it's good that they're experimenting with what they can do in the comic book. It's comparable to season four of the TV show; that season featured a lot of change and was very experimental. Some ideas, like the Initiative, didn't work as well as others, but it's admirable that the series stepped out of it's comfort zone rather than grow complacent and stale. I think the comic book medium has really allowed Buffy to grow and move forward as a series. I'd rather they took advantage of that freedom, than try to box themselves into television sets and budgets.

Some aspects, like MechaDawn and the Tree People, have been rather gratuitous and unnecessary I admit. I could live without them. But to be honest, those things made me laugh so I don't mind them. I think people overreact to them, especially given the number of silly things that happened in the TV series.

[Emmie]

Mar 11, 2009 15:46:30 GMT -5 Paul said:

I simply do not share everybody's contempt for the "new and brazen ideas". I think it's good that they're experimenting with what they can do in the comic book. It's comparable to season four of the TV show; that season featured a lot of change and was very experimental. Some ideas, like the Initiative, didn't work as well as others, but it's admirable that the series stepped out of it's comfort zone rather than grow complacent and stale. I think the comic book medium has really allowed Buffy to grow and move forward as a series. I'd rather they took advantage of that freedom, than try to box themselves into television sets and budgets.

Some aspects, like MechaDawn and the Tree People, have been rather gratuitous and unnecessary I admit. I could live without them. But to be honest, those things made me laugh so I don't mind them. I think people overreact to them, especially given the number of silly things that happened in the TV series.

It's not contempt really. This is one of the few areas where I'm quite critical of Season 8 - otherwise I'm along for the ride. I just think the parts that people are having problems with (Mecha Dawn and the Tree People) are the by-product of this 'brave new world' of a writing environment. And the flash detracts from the story itself at times, pushing the viewer out of reading the page to go "WTF". I can find positives for Mecha Dawn actually - it was funny and played on the metaphor of Dawn destroying audience's interpretation of her as whiny and needy. But these plots just hold too much of a 'wouldn't it be AWESOME if we did this?' feel to it.

There's making use of the freedom of the new medium and there's running wild with it. I think the writers do their best to try to make it still feel like BUFFY while embracing the new possibilities afforded to them in the comics, but sometimes they get a bit too wrapped up in the Geek fest. I'd like a little more 'would it make sense'/'does this make the story better'/'does it emotionally resonate' to go along with the 'wouldn't it be cool' geek-off.

And I fully agree with you that Season 8 has had more gore than After the Fall. Interesting that it turned out that way. Shouldn't being in hell mean more gory violence than Season 8? I'm wondering if it's symptomatic of Season 8 having fewer restraints. Joss is more emboldened as the creator and also maybe getting a bit high on the lack of interference from the suits. Again, I point to the metaphor of Whedon and the writers maybe feeling a bit like Willow in early Season 6 - using the power in ways that aren't necessary just because you can.

[Paul]

Mar 11, 2009 16:39:42 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Mar 11, 2009 15:46:30 GMT -5 Paul said:

I simply do not share everybody's contempt for the "new and brazen ideas". I think it's good that they're experimenting with what they can do in the comic book. It's comparable to season four of the TV show; that season featured a lot of change and was very experimental. Some ideas, like the Initiative, didn't work as well as others, but it's admirable that the series stepped out of it's comfort zone rather than grow complacent and stale. I think the comic book medium has really allowed Buffy to grow and move forward as a series. I'd rather they took advantage of that freedom, than try to box themselves into television sets and budgets.

Some aspects, like MechaDawn and the Tree People, have been rather gratuitous and unnecessary I admit. I could live without them. But to be honest, those things made me laugh so I don't mind them. I think people overreact to them, especially given the number of silly things that happened in the TV series.

It's not contempt really. This is one of the few areas where I'm quite critical of Season 8 - otherwise I'm along for the ride. I just think the parts that people are having problems with (Mecha Dawn and the Tree People) are the by-product of this 'brave new world' of a writing environment. And the flash detracts from the story itself at times, pushing the viewer out of reading the page to go "WTF". I can find positives for Mecha Dawn actually - it was funny and played on the metaphor of Dawn destroying audience's interpretation of her as whiny and needy. But these plots just hold too much of a 'wouldn't it be AWESOME if we did this?' feel to it.

There's making use of the freedom of the new medium and there's running wild with it. I think the writers do their best to try to make it still feel like BUFFY while embracing the new possibilities afforded to them in the comics, but sometimes they get a bit too wrapped up in the Geek fest. I'd like a little more 'would it make sense'/'does this make the story better'/'does it emotionally resonate' to go along with the 'wouldn't it be cool' geek-off.

And I fully agree with you that Season 8 has had more gore than After the Fall. Interesting that it turned out that way. Shouldn't being in hell mean more gory violence than Season 8? I'm wondering if it's symptomatic of Season 8 having fewer restraints. Joss is more emboldened as the creator and also maybe getting a bit high on the lack of interference from the suits. Again, I point to the metaphor of Whedon and the writers maybe feeling a bit like Willow in early Season 6 - using the power in ways that aren't necessary just because you can.

These are fair criticisms, but they just don't detract from my enjoyment of the series.

Perhaps the problem is that I see Buffy, as D'Hoffryn would put it, "with the eyeballs of love". I'm aware of the series' "flaws" but they don't stop me from loving it.

[Emmie]

Mar 11, 2009 17:00:20 GMT -5 Paul said:

These are fair criticisms, but they just don't detract from my enjoyment of the series.

Perhaps the problem is that I see Buffy, as D'Hoffryn would put it, "with the eyeballs of love". I'm aware of the series' "flaws" but they don't stop me from loving it.

Oh I love it too. Very much so. I get all giddy on the Wednesdays when I go to buy the new Buffy comic and I spend a lot of my free time here discussing it (posting art galleries, info, etc, all about Season 8). I feel for it with the same amount of love that I have for the TV show's story. Yet my critical eye still views it the same way - critically. My criticisms are more in the vain hope that it could have been better if only...

It's like when I criticize the continuity issues of Season 7, in particular the First's plan and the way the Potentials took time away from some core character development.

I embrace with my fan's heart, but I still step back and re-examine it with my critical eye. It doesn't really detract from my enjoyment either. I was so excited to read #15 and was laughing outrageously at Mecha Dawn. It was a very exciting ride. But when I look back at it critically about what worked and what didn't, I don't think it was necessarily the best choice to make.

[Paul]

Mar 11, 2009 17:17:10 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Mar 11, 2009 17:00:20 GMT -5 Paul said:

These are fair criticisms, but they just don't detract from my enjoyment of the series.

Perhaps the problem is that I see Buffy, as D'Hoffryn would put it, "with the eyeballs of love". I'm aware of the series' "flaws" but they don't stop me from loving it.

Oh I love it too. Very much so. I get all giddy on the Wednesdays when I go to buy the new Buffy comic and I spend a lot of my free time here discussing it (posting art galleries, info, etc, all about Season 8). I feel for it with the same amount of love that I have for the TV show's story. Yet my critical eye still views it the same way - critically. My criticisms are more in the vain hope that it could have been better if only...

It's like when I criticize the continuity issues of Season 7, in particular the First's plan and the way the Potentials took time away from some core character development.

I embrace with my fan's heart, but I still step back and re-examine it with my critical eye. It doesn't really detract from my enjoyment either. I was so excited to read #15 and was laughing outrageously at Mecha Dawn. It was a very exciting ride. But when I look back at it critically about what worked and what didn't, I don't think it was necessarily the best choice to make.

Fair enough. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way, it's just sometimes all the negative comments can get a bit depressing.

I do criticise certain parts of Buffy; the Initiative and Dark Willow storylines in particular were not handled as well they could have been. Maggie Walsh should have been the Big Bad of season four, and the whole "magic addiction" thing was taken far too literally. But I still love those seasons unconditionally.

I'm the same with Doctor Who. At times, that show can get very self-indulgent but I'm having way too much fun to care. ;D

[commandercool]

I suppose I never noticed. Violence on paper is usually less noticable than violence on film. Plus, Franco Urru's art is so stylized that it lessens the impact of the gore.

[Secret Scoobie]

Mar 11, 2009 17:17:10 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I feel for it with the same amount of love that I have for the TV show's story. Yet my critical eye still views it the same way - critically. My criticisms are more in the vain hope that it could have been better if only...

I embrace with my fan's heart, but I still step back and re-examine it with my critical eye. It doesn't really detract from my enjoyment either. I was so excited to read #15 and was laughing outrageously at Mecha Dawn. It was a very exciting ride. But when I look back at it critically about what worked and what didn't, I don't think it was necessarily the best choice to make.

I agree with you Emmie. I see what you see, it COULD be better. And I didn't often think that with the tv medium.

I'm new to comics and at first I just found myself 'accepting' the way it was because I thought that's how comics were to be, but I started to think "Wait, this is suppose to be Buffy/Angel" and I saw where it wasn't and why. Exactly as you've said.

But I love it still. I just find myself loving a DIFFERENT Buffy.