Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 638
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 30, 2009 15:28:20 GMT -5
Hate to break it to you but Braveheart is rubbish in oh so many ways, check out the goofs on IMDB, you'll see what I mean. Not as simple as 'The English and the Irish', different factions of Irish society and off course this is during the period of the 'Glorious revolution' after the Civil War when the British Isles is still in religious turmoil (as indeed is mainland Europe). As for the 'oppression of English rule' it doesn't exist, Ireland is self-governing (or at least the Protestant Ascendency is) until the Irish Parliament votes for the Union whereupon it becomes a part of Britain, equal with Scotland, England, Wales etc. What Liam says has some grounds but for the most part it is bigotry. Note Angel doesn't share his attitudes in the slightest I'm not arguing that the entire movie is accurate because that's a ridiculous claim. I was just merely pointing out that the popularly understood sentiment of high tensions between England and Scotland and Ireland for more than a millennia is understood here. The fact that there is a phrase popularly understood as "Bloody English" and more importantly "Sassenach" as an epithet are evidence of this. And yes, it is bigotry. But this bigotry is commonplace for people at this time in his situation. So it's in-character bigotry. Like Gunn believing 'The Man' is messing with him? Actually the word Sassenach is translated as 'Lowlander' and was an insult to the lowland Scots by their wilder Highland breathren
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Nina
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 141
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Post by Nina on Mar 30, 2009 16:03:06 GMT -5
Yes, I think it's a fair assessment, what Liam says is prejudiced although he does have some justification. But it's still bigotry. Still, Liam is a 'drunken, whoring layabout' so maybe we shouldn't be suprised, he blames his father too but as his dad says 'I was never in your way boy' (I think the most heartrending scene ever in Angel/Buffy At the time of 'Spin the Bottle', Liam was 16 years old and not yet the loser he was in the days before his death. From what he said in the episode, it was pretty clear that he was still in the beginning of his rebellion against his father and his fathers strict (and according to Liam, hypocrite) religion. We know very little of his childhood and youth so this are more guesses, but from what we can find ... I think that this happened; Liam tried for a long time to please his father, to be the perfect son but never got the pat on the shoulder, never heard the words 'I love You' (note how many times he says these words to Connor, he knows the importance of these words) and gave up after a while. (Highly possible that this is why Angelus uses mindgames, he knows the power of it.) But that wasn't the only thing that went wrong, Liam is a smart person and probably wanted to know answers on questions his father didn't like. He had another view on religion and life, he wanted to see the world and he wanted a strong wife who spoke her mind. Galway was too small for Liam and his curiousity. So not only did Liam gave up to be a good son, he couldn't find other reasons to live. Liam and his father are both to blame for his downfall, because they couldn't understand eachother. Which is tragic, but very realistic. Liam wasn't small minded, he was actually very openminded for a person in that time. He was ready to think outside the box, he wanted a strong wife and to see the world. What he said is of course racist, but for a person in his time and position very normal. I doubt that he was the only Irish catholic person who said things like that ... also the ones that didn't end up the way Liam ended up. Especially because nothing in Angel or Liam points towards hatred for the unknown and everything that's different.
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Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 638
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 31, 2009 2:50:30 GMT -5
Fathers tend to get a hard time in the Angelverse/Buffyverse, I'd love to see their relationship explored more in the comics
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 31, 2009 4:21:23 GMT -5
Spin the Bottle Best line; Cordy (upon seeing Liam) "Hello salty goodness!" exactly what she says upon seeing Angel for the first time What ep was that in again?
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 31, 2009 5:41:56 GMT -5
Never Kill A Boy on the First Date
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 31, 2009 8:02:37 GMT -5
Maybe Liam had been beaten up by a Englishman and therefor call all brits pigs? You should never equate British with English, it annoys the Scot's, Welsh, Irish Unionists etc Brit·ish (brtsh) adj. 1. a. Of or relating to Great Britain or its people, language, or culture. b. Of or relating to the United Kingdom or the Commonwealth of Nations.I didn't know that Brits could mean Scots, Welsh, Irish Unionists as well. Still, even if it was a Scot that beat Liam up, I bet Liam would be petty enough to hate all kinds of brits(and it's not exactly like he said it to Wes' face).
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Post by rebeccaplant on Jul 5, 2009 14:49:33 GMT -5
Wow, I never noticed that before. Great explanations, guys.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jul 14, 2009 21:42:02 GMT -5
Love this episode. Definitely one of my faves. Though it does seem very much like "Tabula Rasa" in a way, similar premise, etc. Either way, both episodes are hilarious, with a little bit of heartbreak mixed in. Typical Joss style.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jul 15, 2009 20:45:50 GMT -5
i agree. Joss did a great job at making it not Tabula Rasa-y.
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Jul 16, 2009 10:33:19 GMT -5
I agree also. I think it's done a lot better than Tabula Rasa in fact, which I feel falls into the standard memory loss traps e.g.: The Scoobies don't remember their names, but they remember the existence of British slang, drivers licenses etc. The Scoobies seem to retain the generic memories of a 'normal' human who has never seen monsters before. This means that even though they retain many detailed facts about the world they live in, they remember nothing of the monsters that inhabit that world, even though on a normal day, they are particularly well aquainted with them. I find such discontinuities really jarring and they seriously affect my ability to be absorbed by that episode.
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Post by SweetMissEdith on Sept 4, 2009 9:03:29 GMT -5
Spin the Bottle is my favourite S4 episode, I loved pretty much all of it and I even liked it a bit better than Tabula Rasa even though nothing can beatSpike thinking he was called Randy! ahaha.
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Erica
Novice Witch
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 260
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Post by Erica on Sept 5, 2009 15:34:33 GMT -5
God, I love this episode so much! It's a nice relief from the rest of Season 4, which I don't hate as much as some people do, but was pretty depressing. I love Wesley and Gunn... too funny. I'm so glad Wesley got to take a break from being badass and be the funny dork we knew from Buffy.
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