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Post by snizapman6294 on Mar 11, 2009 22:10:31 GMT -5
So i just watched Spin the Bottle for the 18th time and something has bothered be since i first saw it,
at 17, cordelia already knew about Angel and the whole supernatural thing... is this just my imagination? or is it a mistake on the writers' part or am i missing something completely?
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 11, 2009 22:20:59 GMT -5
Cordelia mentions something about sophomore pranks, which would mean that she was actually around 16 years old, or roughly the same age that she was in Season 1 of Buffy. Since Cordelia didn't learn about what Buffy really did until the end of the Season, I don't see any problems with the Cordy in "Spin the Bottle" not knowing about what was going on. Also, since Buffy didn't start school until later the second semester of their sophomore year, then "Spin the Bottle" Cordy's memories were most likely from her first semester of Sophomore year, since that is when the "sophomore pranks" would most likely occur anyway, and Buffy wasn't around then.
I guess what I am trying to say is that Cordy's regression to a teenager in "Spin the Bottle" most likely came from any time between September of 1996 and early March 1997. After her sophomore year started, and before Buffy arrived in Sunnydale.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Mar 12, 2009 11:37:04 GMT -5
oh... thanks! that cleared it up for me!
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Post by Greer on Mar 14, 2009 14:33:14 GMT -5
Ok good, I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed this! I thought it was kinda off, but I never got the initiative to go ask someone on here. That makes a lot more sense, as long as it's STB is timed around when all of them just turn 16.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Mar 15, 2009 12:33:33 GMT -5
don't worry Greer, you're not alone... i had to clear this up (Thanks to Wyndam) with a lot of my friends cuz none of them understood it.
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 23, 2009 3:52:54 GMT -5
Spin the Bottle
The Good; Pretty much all of it, possibly the best ep of season 4. Especially like the Lorne framing device (he even breaks the 4th wall and talks directly to the audience) and the comedy is hilarious, so nice to see all the teenage charcters once more.
The Bad; The Connor saves the hooker scene is a bit uncomfortable, obviously it underlines his need for someone but still. DB's Irish accent is still awful
Best line; Cordy (upon seeing Liam) "Hello salty goodness!" exactly what she says upon seeing Angel for the first time Wheldon Cliches;
Character death; Shot;
Tied up; Lorne tied to the sofa
Knocked out; Everyone
Women good/men bad; Kinky dinky; Wesley deploying his stake when Fred starts talking about her naked, vulnerable body. Filthy! Cordy seems to be delighted with her adult cleavage and Fred disappointed that she hardly has any Calling Captain Subtext; Wes was 'head-boy' at his school which I'm sure doesn't suprise anyone although the yanks seem to take a different meaning to it
Guantanamo Bay; Cordy Bush-bashes, saying she know's who's president but wishes she didn't (odd, I would always have thought of her as a rightwinger?) Liam shows a distubring degree of racism calling Gunn a slave and Wes an 'English pig' (still rebelling against his father?)
Questions and observations Fred appears to have been a pot-head growing up, maybe it doesn't rot your braincells? Awww, poor Angel, so close to getting the girl only to lose her to his son. Note Liam thinks that cars are demons just as C18th noblewoman Buffy did in Halloween. Wes refers to the Watcher's Academy in Hampshire. So presumably it survived Caleb blowing up the Council's headquarters in London and they're helping Buff and the Slayers reform? Note when they break out the weapons Gunn instinctively grabs his hubcap axe.
5/5 Total classic
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 23, 2009 8:29:03 GMT -5
Spin the Bottle Guantanamo Bay; Cordy Bush-bashes, saying she know's who's president but wishes she didn't (odd, I would always have thought of her as a rightwinger?) Liam shows a distubring degree of racism calling Gunn a slave and Wes an 'English pig' (still rebelling against his father?) I can't remember the line, but maybe she just said that she wishes she didn't know because he dress badly or because she wants to know more important things than who's the president. Like whne the next shoe sale is. "Young Wes" wouldn't know that in the "future" the place gets blowed up.
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 23, 2009 11:17:37 GMT -5
Spin the Bottle Guantanamo Bay; Cordy Bush-bashes, saying she know's who's president but wishes she didn't (odd, I would always have thought of her as a rightwinger?) Liam shows a distubring degree of racism calling Gunn a slave and Wes an 'English pig' (still rebelling against his father?) I can't remember the line, but maybe she just said that she wishes she didn't know because he dress badly or because she wants to know more important things than who's the president. Like whne the next shoe sale is. "Young Wes" wouldn't know that in the "future" the place gets blowed up. No, by this I mean that the Watcher's headquarters was blown up by Caleb at the beginning of season 7 of Buffy. However, this is obviously a seperate organisation from the Watcher's Academy in Hampshire so we should assume that there are still a number of trainee Watcher's about to help Giles and co rebuild
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 29, 2009 11:03:20 GMT -5
Kinky dinky; Wesley deploying his stake when Fred starts talking about her naked, vulnerable body. Filthy! Cordy seems to be delighted with her adult cleavage and Fred disappointed that she hardly has any You missed my favourite one, the mastrubation joke with Liam changing his face in the bathroom which makes a certain noise. Cordelia outside the room, who just touched a very nervous Liam, thinks that Liam needs some boy time. Guantanamo Bay; Liam shows a distubring degree of racism calling Gunn a slave and Wes an 'English pig' (still rebelling against his father?) I don't think that calling Wesley an 'English Pig' is rebelling against his father but more against the British Kingdom. Liam lived in a time that Ireland was suppressed by the British Kingdom. As an Irish Catholic boy, he is probably suppressed in many things like practising his religion, freedom of speech and education. It's a tiny miracle that his father still had some money because it was against the law to have a good job when you was a Catholic.
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 29, 2009 11:31:12 GMT -5
If Angel is 250years old then Ireland isn't actually part of the Union yet, that doesn't happen to the beginning of the C18th. Liam and co may be disadvantaged to a degree but by their fellow Irishmen who are part of the established Church of Ireland who dominate the parliament. Eventually they will vote for unification with the rest of Britain.
The discrimination you speak of, the penal laws only really began after the United Irishmen's massacres of 1798 and that's after he becomes Angelus
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 29, 2009 11:44:39 GMT -5
Maybe Liam had been beaten up by a Englishman and therefor call all brits pigs?
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 29, 2009 11:50:41 GMT -5
I'm no expert on this, so I need to do it with our beloved internet. But according to this site. A lot of the rules were already made before Liam was born, he is born in 1727 and the most rules are made in the years between 1695 and 1728. And 7 years before his birth, the British Paliament was aloud to make rules and laws for Ireland.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 29, 2009 12:31:11 GMT -5
I'm kinda surprised that we're debating why an Irish man in the 18th century would say "bloody English" here.
It's historically common knowledge that the Irish fought and rebelled against the oppression of English rule. They hated the English. As did the Scots. Has no one here seen Braveheart? All you need to do is see that movie to understand the sentiment historically.
The Irish and the Scots hated the English for the way they sought to oppress them. This oppression dates far back beyond when Liam was born in the 1700's. It's already been that way for centuries. This attitude was already present as far back as the 1200's.
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 29, 2009 14:20:03 GMT -5
Maybe Liam had been beaten up by a Englishman and therefor call all brits pigs? You should never equate British with English, it annoys the Scot's, Welsh, Irish Unionists etc
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 29, 2009 14:29:31 GMT -5
I'm kinda surprised that we're debating why an Irish man in the 18th century would say "bloody English" here. It's historically common knowledge that the Irish fought and rebelled against the oppression of English rule. They hated the English. As did the Scots. Has no one here seen Braveheart? All you need to do is see that movie to understand the sentiment historically. The Irish and the Scots hated the English for the way they sought to oppress them. This oppression dates far back beyond when Liam was born in the 1700's. It's already been that way for centuries. This attitude was already present as far back as the 1200's. Hate to break it to you but Braveheart is rubbish in oh so many ways, check out the goofs on IMDB, you'll see what I mean. Not as simple as 'The English and the Irish', different factions of Irish society and off course this is during the period of the 'Glorious revolution' after the Civil War when the British Isles is still in religious turmoil (as indeed is mainland Europe). As for the 'oppression of English rule' it doesn't exist, Ireland is self-governing (or at least the Protestant Ascendency is) until the Irish Parliament votes for the Union whereupon it becomes a part of Britain, equal with Scotland, England, Wales etc. What Liam says has some grounds but for the most part it is bigotry. Note Angel doesn't share his attitudes in the slightest
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 29, 2009 15:14:59 GMT -5
I'm no expert on this, so I need to do it with our beloved internet. But according to this site. A lot of the rules were already made before Liam was born, he is born in 1727 and the most rules are made in the years between 1695 and 1728. And 7 years before his birth, the British Paliament was aloud to make rules and laws for Ireland. True but the British Parliament was given the powers to make those laws by the Irish Parliament (who of course were composed entirely of landed Irish-Protestant gentry with a vested interest in linking Ireland with the rest of the UK and where unrepresentative of the Irish population as a whole). Odd thing is that by C18th standards British democracy is extremely good which is why the French had a revolution and we didn't As for the penal laws both Protestants and Catholics found themselves discriminated against as the monarchs shifted from Protestant to Catholic until William of Orange establishes the Protestant succession for good during the 'Glorious revolution' (which wasn't so glorious if you weren't Protestant). There's actually been some recent talk of amending the rules so we can have a non-Protestant succession after Elizabeth 2nd. However, Catholics under William 3rd and his successors still better off than Protestants in continental Europe under the Catholic establishment. However before this becomes the history of Britain my problem with Liam's remarks is that he's anti-English. He's not anti-Protestant ascendency or saying all men are equal or anything like that, he's anti-English. If a C18th English Character (Holst for instance) were to profess hatred of the Irish for interfering in England's affairs (backing Phillips of Spain, Charles 1st, James 2nd etc) it would be just as outrageous. Racial bigotry is NEVER justified one side and unjustified on the other, racial bigotry is NEVER justified.
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 29, 2009 16:47:04 GMT -5
But it's correct that he as a catholic Irish man/boy was discriminated? That he couldn't go to the university, that he wasn't free to be a catholic and that his family probably lost lots of money because of the new laws (made by the English)? Because I can see how he could 'confuse' England with anti-Protestant ascendency. In the most cases people just blame the country that 'did it' as a whole, even if this is almost never the case. There were enough 'good' Germans, still we blamed Germany as a whole for Hitler's work in the time of WWII. It's much easier to talk afterwards with an objective eye than when you are discriminated by laws and people that come mainly from another country. Don't forget that he lived in a little city at the eastcoast and probably only heard stories from people who only knew it from stories. He blamed the English people, maybe uncorrectly but I wouldn't be outraged by it. Especially if you see what is done to him.
I mean it's not like Angel still calls black people slaves and English people gits. He knows better now, but I don't think that you can judge a uneducated Irish boy from 1743 like you can judge a person from this century who has acces to all the information and who is free..
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 30, 2009 4:44:40 GMT -5
Well, this is quite interesting to read. You learn something new everyday lol and all this because Liam calls Wesley an 'English pig'
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 30, 2009 12:51:26 GMT -5
But it's correct that he as a catholic Irish man/boy was discriminated? That he couldn't go to the university, that he wasn't free to be a catholic and that his family probably lost lots of money because of the new laws (made by the English)? Because I can see how he could 'confuse' England with anti-Protestant ascendency. In the most cases people just blame the country that 'did it' as a whole, even if this is almost never the case. There were enough 'good' Germans, still we blamed Germany as a whole for Hitler's work in the time of WWII. It's much easier to talk afterwards with an objective eye than when you are discriminated by laws and people that come mainly from another country. Don't forget that he lived in a little city at the eastcoast and probably only heard stories from people who only knew it from stories. He blamed the English people, maybe uncorrectly but I wouldn't be outraged by it. Especially if you see what is done to him. I mean it's not like Angel still calls black people slaves and English people gits. He knows better now, but I don't think that you can judge a uneducated Irish boy from 1743 like you can judge a person from this century who has acces to all the information and who is free.. Yes, I think it's a fair assessment, what Liam says is prejudiced although he does have some justification. But it's still bigotry. Still, Liam is a 'drunken, whoring layabout' so maybe we shouldn't be suprised, he blames his father too but as his dad says 'I was never in your way boy' (I think the most heartrending scene ever in Angel/Buffy
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Post by Emmie on Mar 30, 2009 14:32:42 GMT -5
I'm kinda surprised that we're debating why an Irish man in the 18th century would say "bloody English" here. It's historically common knowledge that the Irish fought and rebelled against the oppression of English rule. They hated the English. As did the Scots. Has no one here seen Braveheart? All you need to do is see that movie to understand the sentiment historically. The Irish and the Scots hated the English for the way they sought to oppress them. This oppression dates far back beyond when Liam was born in the 1700's. It's already been that way for centuries. This attitude was already present as far back as the 1200's. Hate to break it to you but Braveheart is rubbish in oh so many ways, check out the goofs on IMDB, you'll see what I mean. Not as simple as 'The English and the Irish', different factions of Irish society and off course this is during the period of the 'Glorious revolution' after the Civil War when the British Isles is still in religious turmoil (as indeed is mainland Europe). As for the 'oppression of English rule' it doesn't exist, Ireland is self-governing (or at least the Protestant Ascendency is) until the Irish Parliament votes for the Union whereupon it becomes a part of Britain, equal with Scotland, England, Wales etc. What Liam says has some grounds but for the most part it is bigotry. Note Angel doesn't share his attitudes in the slightest I'm not arguing that the entire movie is accurate because that's a ridiculous claim. I was just merely pointing out that the popularly understood sentiment of high tensions between England and Scotland and Ireland for more than a millennia is understood here. The fact that there is a phrase popularly understood as "Bloody English" and more importantly "Sassenach" as an epithet are evidence of this. And yes, it is bigotry. But this bigotry is commonplace for people at this time in his situation. So it's in-character bigotry.
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