Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
[Mo0:24]
Posts: 344
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Post by Skeptic on May 10, 2009 14:52:39 GMT -5
I've seen this sentiment expressed in many places in the Buffy fandom about the Season Eight comics: Some fans will not read the Season Eight comics because, even though they're specifically written to be the continuation of the show, "they're not canon to me".
I want to know: Why?
I've seen that said so often that it's now piqued my curiosity enough that I have to know the reasoning behind it. I'm genuinely curious and interested in the answers and viewpoints of the people who won't read Season Eight specifically because they do not see it as canon. I'm just interested in understanding this feeling, because it's confusing to me. I wondered if I could open a thread here and learn, or at least get an idea of, what the general consensus is for these fans.
So, the question is: Do you view the comics as non-canon, and so, not read them? Or do you know somebody like that? Or maybe do you read them, but don't acknowledge their canon-ness? Is there a specific reason for this?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 10, 2009 15:32:04 GMT -5
I can understand their point of view. I felt like that too, before I feel in love with season 8. I can't remember if I knew season 8 was considered canon or not, but I know that I didn't want to read mainly because I didn't think that comics could ever replace the tv-seasons. I was wrong.
Also, now people might not read if thay heard Joss at the reunion, saying that he would ignore season 8's story if he made a movie, so the realtively vauge canon-issue could matter to people.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 10, 2009 15:41:02 GMT -5
The below might sound like a rant, because... well, because it is one. Directed at "Them" and not at anyone on this board, that I know of.
The phrases "canon to me" or "not canon to me" are wholly meaningless. Canonicity has nothing to do with the perceptions or desires of the individual reader or viewer. Joss Whedon is the one and only determiner of what is canon and what isn't in the Buffyverse. Saying "the Season 8 comics aren't canon to me" is like saying "I choose to believe that John McCain won last year's election and is now President of the United States." You can say that if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're objectively wrong. And when you try to communicate your chosen self-delusion to others, you're mostly going to get funny looks.
It's perfectly valid to say one dislikes the comics and doesn't choose to read them. Some people honestly just don't think they're well done. Some people think comics as a whole are stupid, which goes back to the ingrained societal notion that they're silly throwaway stories for kids. Some people just aren't comfortable with having the status quo of the sacred 144 episodes disturbed with new material (Who moved my cheese?) Some people derived a lot of their enjoyment of the series from the actors and their performances.
Some of those are perfectly valid opinions. But the comics are canon, whether you, I, he, she, they, or it likes it or not. I relish saying that, not just because I love the comics, but because I'm so sick and tired of this arrogant, ignorant "my beliefs trump the facts" meme that's taken hold lately among certain people.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on May 10, 2009 16:29:26 GMT -5
With regard to Season Eight, this really annoys me because it's usually nothing to do with the quality of the story, but simply narrow-minded prejudice towards the comic book medium. As someone who loved and respected comic books long before S8 came along, this pisses me off. I recently met somebody who insisted the Halloween comic books weren't canon. His stance was: films = canon, comics = non-canon. Black and white. I patiently explained to him that the comics were approved by the film producers and actually superceded some of the films, but it didn't matter. Comic books just weren't canon to him.  Ignoring the medium for a moment though, I actually do understand the "it's not canon to me" stance if it's about quality. For a really long time, I refused to acknowledge Halloween: Resurrection as canon because it's an appalling insult to the franchise and it's characters. I now accept it as canon, but only loosely; I just don't accept that the Michael Myers from the original film would act the way he does in that film. Even in Buffy, I didn't consider Anya's death canon for a long time, I preferred to believe that she lived happily ever after with Xander. When S8 came out, I had to accept it (and have actually come to appreciate it). At the end of the day, fiction is subjective and people are free to interpret it how they choose (even if their interpretation is nonsense). I believe that there is such a thing as official canon, but if people want to ignore it and create their own "personal canon" in their head, that's their right.  |
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Just Willow
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Look to the Western Sky
[Mo0:22]
Posts: 2,575
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Post by Just Willow on May 10, 2009 17:48:09 GMT -5
i view them as canon, but there are bits and pieces of them that aren't. for example: If Amy had indeed stopped Warren from dying, then The First wouldn't have been able to impersonate him all through season 7. Most of the time whenever i find a messup in my favorite fandoms (ie. Buffy, Harry Potter) i simply find a way to justify them. so in my world, Warren did die, and Amy brought him back to life. Therefore, the First could impersonate him, and he could be walking and talking in season 8. A lot of the time i refuse to believe that the people who create my favorite things aren't perfect, so i find a way around every mistake  . |
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on May 10, 2009 21:19:17 GMT -5
i view them as canon, but there are bits and pieces of them that aren't. for example: If Amy had indeed stopped Warren from dying, then The First wouldn't have been able to impersonate him all through season 7. Most of the time whenever i find a messup in my favorite fandoms (ie. Buffy, Harry Potter) i simply find a way to justify them. so in my world, Warren did die, and Amy brought him back to life. Therefore, the First could impersonate him, and he could be walking and talking in season 8. A lot of the time i refuse to believe that the people who create my favorite things aren't perfect, so i find a way around every mistake . Actually, Joss did say that Warren was dead for a couple of seconds before Amy's magic kicked in. It's the same principle with Buffy. Buffy died...twice, yet The First was able to take her form. However, Joss did admit that he forgot about this tidbit of info before writing Warren back into story. But his quick-explanation makes sense resolving the "Skinless Warren/The First" debate. Oh about the whole canon thing. Some people simply don't care for comics. Most just trivialize it like it's for kids, or just don't have the patience to LEARN to read them. But some people just want the story told with live actors whether it be on TV or in film. So to these people, the Buffyverse ended with Not Fade Away. I totally understand where these people are coming from. |
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Post by CowboyGuy on May 10, 2009 23:22:07 GMT -5
Just because people say they aren't canon to them, doesn't lessen the fact that they are official canon.
No matter what Season 8 haters delude themselves to believe, Season 8 is the official Joss-approved-and-sometimes-written continuation of Buffy's story after she left the crater's edge!
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Post by diabeticdude202 on May 10, 2009 23:48:57 GMT -5
I think the people who say they aren't cannon, or official feel that way because there was a long gap between season 7 - 8 and they had a lot of time to think "I wonder what would happen in season 8 if they did another season"....and with all these thoughts and expectations of this eighth season, the comics just didn't live up to that.
It's a problem with leaving a project dead (gone) for so long then reviving it. I, at first, felt this way. I didn't want to believe that it was the real season 8 but after the great issues that have come, I am loving it just as much as the show!
Hope that helped XD
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Nina
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 141
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Post by Nina on May 11, 2009 12:23:23 GMT -5
I don't see any problem with it, as long people put 'to me' in the line. People are free to believe what they want, it's just a show/story ... It's not like they are denying the holocaust. For me the problem starts when those people try to prove their 'right' or preach their opinion. There are people who just enjoy it to register on every forum and blog, just to annoy people.
For me, season 8 is not working. It can't grap me, but I will never say that it's not canon. I follow what is happening and I see that as canon. But that's just me, I've a friend who loves Ats and BtVS but doesn't see a reason to read the comics or follow the story, which is fine in my eyes ... and I think that the people who enjoy BtVS and Ats comics are sometimes a bit too overprotective ... people who dislike the comics or don't want to read it, are not 'fake fans' or 'trolls'. What's the big deal? But again, I'm allergic for people who only post to say bad things and troll around ... I just don't think that every fan who doesn't like or read season 8 is one of those. And sometimes that's forgotten.
And I don't say that I'm not one of the overprotective ones, I'm quite guilty of that behavior. Although I was kind of cranky when a BtVS fan said that I was not enough fan to post on boards because I don't enjoy every season.
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Post by henzINNIT on May 11, 2009 13:19:15 GMT -5
Go and ask for the complete collection of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and damn near anywhere you'll find the 1-7 series boxset is the answer. Season 8 isn't really season 8. It's not an 8th season, it's a comic continuation. It's canon status is "canon until Joss is offered a movie".
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 11, 2009 14:06:44 GMT -5
It all comes down to the fact that people need to learn the difference between "I don't like it" and "it's not canon."
The speed of light is 299,792,458 meters per second. Columbus arrived in the New World in 1492. The earth revolves around the sun. And the Season 8 comics are canon.
It's not a question of opinion, unless your name is Joss Whedon. Season 8 is really Season 8, because he says it is.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on May 11, 2009 14:40:37 GMT -5
I think people have every right to not take Season Eight seriously. Hell, even I don't. It's canon yes, but I have a feeling that this is not the storyline that the show would have gone if it were on the air.
All this mainly stems off that asinine comment that Joss made at the reunion. If a movie or a new show opportunity came up, he'd toss out the Season Eight story in favor of them. That just shows right there how invested he is in Season Eight's canon. It's "tossable". And he already had Season Eight mapped out in his head when he made that comment.
Also, here's the thing about comics that most people don't like. Even I still have some qualms about comics. They're fun to read yes. But you have to READ them. And the artwork is either hit or miss and the likeness is not completely there. It's cartoony, in a way. There's no movement, no audio or sounds of any kind. Just quiet panels with words. At this point, I'm used to it, so I don't care anymore. But people want the story told to them with live actors. With music, with spoken words, with expressions, with fluid movement. And if it were on TV, it'd be FREE to watch. Not 3 bucks per issue. Also, each episode comes out every week and then the season wraps and takes a summer break. Whereas Season Eight is taking 4 goddamn years and we're only getting 10 issues a month. Also, televised seasons are cheaper when they're out. You only pay 40 bucks for each season, whereas for Season Eight, you're investing $120 for all the issues, ($240 if you get the variants), and $130 for all the TPBS, and probably some more for a larger collected edition. Comics are freaking expensive in the long run. It's only because we have to wait a month between issues that we don't notice how much money we're spending.
So yeah, that's why in some peoples' eyes, comics don't count. It's a flawed opinion, but it's one that I can understand.
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on May 11, 2009 15:31:20 GMT -5
The below might sound like a rant, because... well, because it is one. Directed at "Them" and not at anyone on this board, that I know of. The phrases "canon to me" or "not canon to me" are wholly meaningless. Canonicity has nothing to do with the perceptions or desires of the individual reader or viewer. Joss Whedon is the one and only determiner of what is canon and what isn't in the Buffyverse. Saying "the Season 8 comics aren't canon to me" is like saying "I choose to believe that John McCain won last year's election and is now President of the United States." You can say that if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're objectively wrong. And when you try to communicate your chosen self-delusion to others, you're mostly going to get funny looks. It's perfectly valid to say one dislikes the comics and doesn't choose to read them. Some people honestly just don't think they're well done. Some people think comics as a whole are stupid, which goes back to the ingrained societal notion that they're silly throwaway stories for kids. Some people just aren't comfortable with having the status quo of the sacred 144 episodes disturbed with new material (Who moved my cheese?) Some people derived a lot of their enjoyment of the series from the actors and their performances. Some of those are perfectly valid opinions. But the comics are canon, whether you, I, he, she, they, or it likes it or not. I relish saying that, not just because I love the comics, but because I'm so sick and tired of this arrogant, ignorant "my beliefs trump the facts" meme that's taken hold lately among certain people. Brilliant statement, IMO. This argument really grinds my gears, and people still don't seem to understand that Joss is the be all end all of Canon. |
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on May 11, 2009 17:23:05 GMT -5
It all comes down to the fact that people need to learn the difference between "I don't like it" and "it's not canon." The speed of light is 299,792,458 meters per second. Columbus arrived in the New World in 1492. The earth revolves around the sun. And the Season 8 comics are canon. It's not a question of opinion, unless your name is Joss Whedon. Season 8 is really Season 8, because he says it is. This is a flawed analogy because fiction isn't objective fact like that. It's more like religion than science, and open to interpretation. Yes, there is an official canon and Season Eight is part of that official canon. But if someone doesn't want to count it, that's their business. So long as they're not trying to say everyone else should discount it, they're not harming anyone. Also, here's the thing about comics that most people don't like. Even I still have some qualms about comics. They're fun to read yes. But you have to READ them. And the artwork is either hit or miss and the likeness is not completely there. It's cartoony, in a way. There's no movement, no audio or sounds of any kind. Just quiet panels with words. At this point, I'm used to it, so I don't care anymore. But people want the story told to them with live actors. With music, with spoken words, with expressions, with fluid movement. And if it were on TV, it'd be FREE to watch. Not 3 bucks per issue. Also, each episode comes out every week and then the season wraps and takes a summer break. Whereas Season Eight is taking 4 goddamn years and we're only getting 10 issues a month. Also, televised seasons are cheaper when they're out. You only pay 40 bucks for each season, whereas for Season Eight, you're investing $120 for all the issues, ($240 if you get the variants), and $130 for all the TPBS, and probably some more for a larger collected edition. Comics are freaking expensive in the long run. It's only because we have to wait a month between issues that we don't notice how much money we're spending. I disagree with this statement so much I don't even want to get into it... |
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Post by Emmie on May 11, 2009 19:53:33 GMT -5
*karmas AndrewCrossett*
I fully agree that canon isn't a debatable creation when said creator is around saying what is and isn't canon. I understand why it's hard for people to jump mediums, but I still view a dismissal of the Season 8 story as akin to a fan deciding to stop watching the show after Season 3 because they only liked the high school years or after Season 5 because it went to UPN.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on May 11, 2009 21:01:37 GMT -5
Hey, just so you know, I'm only playing the devil's advocate. The statements I made are based on other people's opinions.
What I believe is that Season Eight is canon regardless of mediums. Anyone who says different is wrong.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 12, 2009 8:13:06 GMT -5
Just to reiterate, I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like the comics and don't want to read them. It's just the misuse of the word "canon" that irritates me. Canon is by nature a shared definition, not an individual one. Otherwise, it's a useless term. Saying "it's not canon to me" is much like saying "it's not legal to me." The opinions of individuals just don't matter in this case.
Quality is a matter of opinion, but canonicity is not.
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scarecroe
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 12
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Post by scarecroe on May 12, 2009 9:34:55 GMT -5
It's canon status is "canon until Joss is offered a movie". I don't think that's true. Joss has said he would toss Season 8 out the window if he had to. Meaning, if an opportunity came up for him to do a movie right now, in the middle of the story he's trying to tell with Seasons 8 and 9, that he would drop those in favor of a movie to work with the cast again. But it's pretty clear that a movie isnt going to happen anytime soon and I think it's a safe bet that season 8 will have plenty of time to tell its story, and probably season 9, too. If Joss does a movie after those stories (that he has declared as canon), I fully expect him to honor the history that has passed there and acknowledge that they happened in any story he tells after they're done; be it a movie, a mini-series or whatever. |
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on May 12, 2009 13:14:53 GMT -5
I think the whole argument and people saying "it isnt canon to me" is complete crap to tell you the truth. People cant just pick what they chose to be official canon based on their own personal opinions toward the subject/comic. Take me for example, I think the Mecha Dawn this is probably the dumbest thing Joss Whedon ever did/approved in his career and doing the Buffy comics, as well as all the fairy tale/mystical stuff in Season 8, but that doesnt mean I can specifically go back to that issue and say that it isnt canon. Understand?
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Post by Rebecca on May 14, 2009 1:22:59 GMT -5
"It's not canon to me" is a cop out for not jumping mediums. I've read everything said so far, and for the majority I agree. Canon isn't arguable, quality and acceptance is. If people choose to define their vision of the Buffyverse without Season 8, that is wholly their decision. I just think it's arrogant to believe you know more about the Buffyverse than its creator, that even though he's the driving force behind the comic series, it doesn't count. Saying "It's not canon to me" is a bit like saying "I don't want to jump mediums and therefore haven't read the comics and therefore Season 8 isn't in my vision of the Buffyverse," and then tacking on that 'not canon' tid bit to give their stance merit. It isn't accurate, and they should just say the truth: "I don't care about the rest of the story if it's in comic form."
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