XanderHarris
Potential Slayer
I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 125
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Post by XanderHarris on May 15, 2009 8:21:21 GMT -5
So, I am watching "Conviction" and I realize - Connor is gone and all the memories concerning him. Why doesn't it have more impact on the way of the characters?
I mean, yeah, Gunn, Lorne and Fred didn't really change during that time, but especially Wesley did.
Everything he was from the end of Season 3 to the end of Season 4, it started because he got his throat cut.
But in Conviction and the following episodes, he appears to be as bitter as he was during Season 4.
He became brighter and opened up during Season 4, but deep down he was still wounded - how come he doesn't chnage more when all the memories are wiped out?
Without the memories, he still remembers to have been abandoned by the Fang Gang, but the severe stuff, getting smothered by Angel in the hospital, keeping Justine in the closet, sleeping with Lilah - all that stuff ought to be eradicated since it was a direct consequence of abducting Connor.
Does anybody get my point? Since the memories are gone, we actually ought to have seen a Wesley mor similar to the one at the beginning of Season 3.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 15, 2009 9:18:56 GMT -5
Well, maybe everything wasn't removed. Maybe he remembered some stuff.
Or, that he lost Fred to Gunn still makes him moody.
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Krescan
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 41
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Post by Krescan on May 15, 2009 11:14:09 GMT -5
it's a good point, he really should go back to a much more happy go lucky wesley
i'm glad he didn't though
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Post by snizapman6294 on May 15, 2009 15:17:08 GMT -5
i think W&H just augmented their memories, so maybe Wesley thinks that Justine cut his throat just cuz Holtz told her to... just my opinion, but i think the powers of Wolfram and Hart is so... i wanna say vast... that it can change events.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 15, 2009 15:19:34 GMT -5
Change events? As in changing reality?
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Post by snizapman6294 on May 15, 2009 21:14:49 GMT -5
yes... like they can alter individual events for individual people.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 16, 2009 7:15:38 GMT -5
Man, I hope Angel wasn't stupid enough to tell/let W&H to do that.
I mean I'm sure they could, they sent LA to hell and all, but changing reality... So much could go wrong.
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XanderHarris
Potential Slayer
I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 125
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Post by XanderHarris on May 16, 2009 7:24:51 GMT -5
Wasn' it stated in Origin that it was all just a spell to alter memories? When Wesley destroyed that shiny box of Vail's, he remembered what happened in an instance, right?
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Nina
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 141
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Post by Nina on May 16, 2009 8:48:53 GMT -5
I think that there is very little (well no reason, or you should have a hard time believing that people can be corrupted that easily) reason to believe that more than just Connor was removed from their minds. It's not another world or something like that. It's like with Dawn; the characters remember another life, but the history is not different from what we saw in the first 4 seasons. In their minds some things changed and we don't know how but it's not like every memory was fake. They still remember Cordelia being possesed, Wesley's relation with Lilah etc. Wesley has not been a very happy strawberry since Angel's arc in season 2, since he became the leader he is much more serious and a bit more dark. And Wesley was lighter in season 5 than in season 4, but he is still Wesley ... full of issues and not very stable. Removing Connor from his mind helped for a while, but being part of W&H and losing Cordelia and Fred made him crack, just like Connor's kidnap did in the past.
And I want to hint to the episode 'The Ring' where Wesley already showed that he could be quite extreme.
I'm still very curious how those memories look like btw, why did Wesley sleept with Lilah in his memory? Where did Jasmine come from? How did Darla die? Who dumped Angel on the bottom of the sea? etc.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 16, 2009 9:45:19 GMT -5
I specially wonder about Jasmine. I think the memories of her was removed as well. Of course, then they'd have to do that to lots and lots of people, but I figure it's a possibility since they seemed to forget they were heartbróken from ending world peace. They got over her very quickly.
So I think W&H must have done something to everyons's memory if her, since she caused too much trouble to not to be taken seriously by the public.
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XanderHarris
Potential Slayer
I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 125
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Post by XanderHarris on May 16, 2009 10:46:14 GMT -5
I specially wonder about Jasmine. I think the memories of her was removed as well. Of course, then they'd have to do that to lots and lots of people, but I figure it's a possibility since they seemed to forget they were heartbróken from ending world peace. They got over her very quickly. So I think W&H must have done something to everyons's memory if her, since she caused too much trouble to not to be taken seriously by the public. Oh, I never noticed that one! In Peace Out, L.A. is pretty much Hell, cause of the riots that were caused by Jasmine's loss. I figure she had to be wiped out as well from EVERYONE'S memory, since everything gets back to normal with Home/Conviction. Very interesting point. NinaWell, you're right, Wesley always had some kind of a dark side, if required. But I think there is a huge difference, at least to his appearance and the way he treats people, between Season 2 and Season 3/4 Wesley. He is the same person, yeah, but everything related to Connor pushed him to the edge. Connor and everything his abduction triggered, those were the events that made Wesley became that bitter and introverted. And that's what I meant, so many things refer to Connor or are related to his existence, especially Wesley's dark side, I find it rather surprising he isn't more different when the memories of Connor and related events are wiped out. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 16, 2009 10:53:16 GMT -5
Maybe the memories are gone, but they left a shadow? How Wesley felt about those events that he can no longer remember might be left. Like a bad aftertaste.
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Nina
Potential Slayer
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Post by Nina on May 16, 2009 12:48:08 GMT -5
Could be, the scoobies were also not changed very much after the addition of Dawn. Even Buffy was not (which is weird, because having a little sister means more resposibility and sharing your parents). None of the characters (except Connor) were changed. I agree that the difference between the Wesley's should maybe be a bit more extreme. But we don't know what how his memories looked like, maybe W&H created a new big mistake made by Wesley, which resulted in his relation with Lilah, him being alone for a while and him locking up Justine.
About Jasmine, that one was tricky because Cordelia and Wesley talk about what 'Cordelia' did. And how she felt guilty and Wesley telling her that it was not her. I guess that the people going back to their old lives, is pretty much the same plothole that returns every single time in the 'verse (but also in DW, Charmed and other series). Normal people forget everything they saw when the storyline is over.
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Alexiness
Novice Witch
There is no me... I'm just a container.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 268
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Post by Alexiness on May 23, 2009 9:06:28 GMT -5
Has anyone ever considered that the only reason Fred finally fell for Wesley was because of the memory alterations? Because it seemed in season four Fred wasn't very fond of Wesley at all because of what he'd done with taking Connor/sleeping with Lilah. Maybe with the memories taken away it was the only way for Fred and Wesley to be together.  |
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XanderHarris
Potential Slayer
I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 125
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Post by XanderHarris on May 23, 2009 10:42:39 GMT -5
Has anyone ever considered that the only reason Fred finally fell for Wesley was because of the memory alterations? Because it seemed in season four Fred wasn't very fond of Wesley at all because of what he'd done with taking Connor/sleeping with Lilah. Maybe with the memories taken away it was the only way for Fred and Wesley to be together. I think you didn't sense the tension between Wesley and Fred properly in Season 4. After Wesley had kissed Fred (which really irritated Fred and - in my opinion - happened on a little but existing mutual basis), after Fred broke up with Gunn, before Fred knew about Lilah, I thought there was an extreme tension between the both of them. A little less chaos with the end of the world and stuff, I guess it would've worked out back then already. But then, when Lilah came along, Fred was rather disappointed in Wesley and felt hurt because he had slept with Lilah. Well, we know the rest of the story, Knox came along, Wes - our little self-doubting watcher - didn't really know what to do and so it took just time for Fred and Wesley to get together. In my opinion, Fred wanted to be with Wesley ever since she asked him fot help concerning Seidel. I think, after the kiss in Soulless, she really fell for him. In a subtle way, yeah, but I think she did. The memories, well, I think both still remember Lilah and Wesley sleeping with her, their kiss, that Wesley fell for Fred a long while ago and so on. I think it didn't essentially conflict their relationship. |
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Post by snizapman6294 on May 24, 2009 8:26:21 GMT -5
Has anyone ever considered that the only reason Fred finally fell for Wesley was because of the memory alterations? Because it seemed in season four Fred wasn't very fond of Wesley at all because of what he'd done with taking Connor/sleeping with Lilah. Maybe with the memories taken away it was the only way for Fred and Wesley to be together. NOOOOOOOOOOOO TAKE IT BACK!!! I DON'T WANNA THINK ABOUT THAT!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I'M HAVING A SEIZURE RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO! |
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Alexiness
Novice Witch
There is no me... I'm just a container.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 268
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Post by Alexiness on May 30, 2009 4:08:08 GMT -5
Has anyone ever considered that the only reason Fred finally fell for Wesley was because of the memory alterations? Because it seemed in season four Fred wasn't very fond of Wesley at all because of what he'd done with taking Connor/sleeping with Lilah. Maybe with the memories taken away it was the only way for Fred and Wesley to be together. NOOOOOOOOOOOO TAKE IT BACK!!! I DON'T WANNA THINK ABOUT THAT!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I'M HAVING A SEIZURE RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!  I take it back? |
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spuffyfan4life
Innocent Bystander
To be a God, at minimum, you don't cut up women![Mo0:16]
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Post by spuffyfan4life on Jun 1, 2009 23:25:36 GMT -5
None of it really makes any sense. I mean how do they all think Cordy got pregnant if it wasn't by Conner? And everything with Wesley shouldn't have happened. My only explanation is that new disloyalties and whatnot got shoved in so that everything would remain relatively unchanged. The Cordy pregnant for no reason thing...I'm at a loss.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jun 3, 2009 22:44:41 GMT -5
NOOOOOOOOOOOO TAKE IT BACK!!! I DON'T WANNA THINK ABOUT THAT!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I'M HAVING A SEIZURE RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO! I take it back? damn it... now that you have me thinking about it... it does make sense that the only reason Wes and Fred fell in love was because of the spellllll... ahhhhhhhhh... i hate it when people make lunacy plausible. |
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