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Post by Brian Lynch on Jun 13, 2009 19:22:34 GMT -5
I wrote the dialog and I'm not embarrassed in the least. What plot twist confused you?
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Jun 13, 2009 19:44:14 GMT -5
I wrote the dialog and I'm not embarrassed in the least. What plot twist confused you? The "bippety, boppety, boo" line is shoot-yourself-in-the-head embarrassing but you've already told me it was tongue-in-cheek. I've never liked it, I could never imagine Angel saying something like that. Spike's stuff about getting away from Angel in a very fast car annoyed me. I know it's in-character for him to run his mouth, but I felt like slapping him. Connor gibbering on about Gwen to Angel also annoyed me, as did the "Burge is my master now" guy. The whole hagan shaft thing confused me. I kind of figured it out in retrospect but when it happened I was like, "Say whaat??" It turns out I'm not the only one. But by far the worst thing about the issue is the artwork. Nick Runge's artwork just offends me in these three issues, I've explained why in other threads. This was the point where I lost interest in the series, and didn't get it back till #12. Oh, and to ease my guilt over criticising the work of a very nice man, all the Cordy stuff near the end was beautifully written. Please forgive me.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 13, 2009 19:44:51 GMT -5
Season 8 of buffy just seems more planned out and true to the source material Season 8 is more planned out, so it's not weird that you feel that. Joss have 40 issues planned out, probably had from the start, and after the fall was only suppose to have 12 issues at first, then they'd decided to add a few more issues and make a ongoing series. Who knows when they even started to plan for post-after the fall stuff. It's not weird that the on-going series doesn't seem planned out, because it's not suppose to be a season at all.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jun 13, 2009 20:57:34 GMT -5
I wrote the dialog and I'm not embarrassed in the least. What plot twist confused you? The "bippety, boppety, boo" line is shoot-yourself-in-the-head embarrassing but you've already told me it was tongue-in-cheek. I've never liked it, I could never imagine Angel saying something like that. Spike's stuff about getting away from Angel in a very fast car annoyed me. I know it's in-character for him to run his mouth, but I felt like slapping him. Connor gibbering on about Gwen to Angel also annoyed me, as did the "Burge is my master now" guy. The whole hagan shaft thing confused me. I kind of figured it out in retrospect but when it happened I was like, "Say whaat??" It turns out I'm not the only one. But by far the worst thing about the issue is the artwork. Nick Runge's artwork just offends me in these three issues, I've explained why in other threads. This was the point where I lost interest in the series, and didn't get it back till #12. Oh, and to ease my guilt over criticising the work of a very nice man, all the Cordy stuff near the end was beautifully written. Please forgive me. Totally fine, man. Can't please'em all, all of the time. I like the "bippity" thing because I picture David Bananas saying it awkwardly and stoic. But I understand if stuff doesn't click.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jun 13, 2009 20:59:18 GMT -5
Season 8 of buffy just seems more planned out and true to the source material Season 8 is more planned out, so it's not weird that you feel that. Joss have 40 issues planned out, probably had from the start, and after the fall was only suppose to have 12 issues at first, then they'd decided to add a few more issues and make a ongoing series. Who knows when they even started to plan for post-after the fall stuff. It's not weird that the on-going series doesn't seem planned out, because it's not suppose to be a season at all. Let me just say that the series was always supposed to be 12+ issues, and the story we told in issues 1-17 is very very planned out. I didn't work on AFTERMATH so I can't speak for it, but I never added an issue to ATF simply to sell more issues, no sir. I told the story of ATF and then I got off the stage for a while.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 13, 2009 21:15:44 GMT -5
Let me just say that the series was always supposed to be 12+ issues, and the story we told in issues 1-17 is very very planned out. I didn't work on AFTERMATH so I can't speak for it, but I never added an issue to ATF simply to sell more issues, no sir. I told the story of ATF and then I got off the stage for a while. Then can I just say that the planning was much appreciated? 'Cause for me, it definitely was.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jun 13, 2009 21:27:38 GMT -5
Very sweet of you to say, thank you!
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 13, 2009 22:54:22 GMT -5
Season 8 is more planned out, so it's not weird that you feel that. Joss have 40 issues planned out, probably had from the start, and after the fall was only suppose to have 12 issues at first, then they'd decided to add a few more issues and make a ongoing series. Who knows when they even started to plan for post-after the fall stuff. It's not weird that the on-going series doesn't seem planned out, because it's not suppose to be a season at all. Let me just say that the series was always supposed to be 12+ issues, and the story we told in issues 1-17 is very very planned out. I didn't work on AFTERMATH so I can't speak for it, but I never added an issue to ATF simply to sell more issues, no sir. I told the story of ATF and then I got off the stage for a while. I think you might have misunderstood me. The after the fall series was well put together, it went smoothly and didn't change direction. I assumed xythil meant that the angel ongoing series as a whole was less planned out than season 8. And that's true, isn't it? While season 8 has the same creator(joss) and a "big picture" and a special ... mood(?) to it, angel the ongoing series isn't as consistent. Different writers and story plots will do that. (But I'm just guessing, since I've only read issue one of aftermath, but everyone keeps telling me it's very different from after the fall.) Not that I think that there isn't some big picture-thinking going on, but it won't be/isn't as tied together as season 8, is it?
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Post by Emmie on Jun 13, 2009 23:44:39 GMT -5
Does anyone else feel this way? No. Speak for yourself, henz. cmurph, feel free to disagree with someone's point, but do not call them names. It's against forum policy. I'm also loving the Angel comics. Aftermath is maybe a bit of disappointed, it's not mythology destroying. Funny you should say this because I've actually been entertaining the idea of writing an in-depth analysis of how Aftermath is potentially mythology destroying. I've been waiting til the last issue comes out before going into detail. Why are you doing that? They're two different stories. The comic book stores barely differentiate between them actually. And they'll be judged as companion pieces because Aftermath continues the lettering of After the Fall. It's the same way people judge Season 8 as a whole saying they love No Future For You but hate Long Way Home. By judging After the Fall along with Aftermath, the fan is in effect judging the ANGEL title as a whole. I frankly wish that Aftermath could just be excised from the story altogether. I wish that it hadn't continued the numbering of After the Fall and truly is a separate storyline. Sadly it's not. Though, as El Diablo Robotico said, it's refreshing to hear some criticism leveled at AtF since it seems to be regarded as flawless on this site. I love the beginning and the end, but those middle issues just bore me... The fact that I get karma-bombed every time I criticize the ANGEL title speaks to how true this is.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 13, 2009 23:54:42 GMT -5
The fact that I get karma-bombed every time I criticize the ANGEL title speaks to how true this is. You do? *giving karma to make up for it*
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on Jun 14, 2009 0:42:00 GMT -5
Mmm I don’t think anyone should get karma bombed for not liking something. Or maybe I just don’t understand how this karma thing works. I just assumed you’d only take karma points away if someone was being offensive or rude. In regards to After the Fall, I enjoyed it. I’ll happily admit I find season 8 a lot more compelling but I didn’t dislike After the Fall at all. I just find myself gravitating towards season 8 a lot more because it has more meaty stuff to chew on. There’s layers upon layers of interesting stuff to dissect and analyse and that’s what usually wins for me in the end. I’m still discussing Buffy’s bank robbery, or NFFY or Buffy’s willingness to sacrifice humans even though it happened months ago. With After the Fall I don’t get that and there never seems to be as big of a discussion on past issues because it’s a rather straight forward story to follow. There’s nothing wrong with that and it was a great story but I wouldn’t say it’s as complex as season eight and doesn’t make me think anywhere near as much. When I put down an issue it was done with and I hardly thought about it afterwards. I've also always been more emotionally invested in the Btvs characters (aside from Angel, Cordy and occasionally Wes) which obviously has something to do with it. Angel's the only character on Ats who's left, that I truly feel passionate and connected with. I always enjoyed Fred/Illyria, Gunn and eventually Connor but I never cared for them like I did Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles or Oz, Cordy or Angel. Ooohh.. but I love Lilah I really don’t like Aftermath though, both the writing and the art was pretty “meh.” Especially the art… yikes. Usually if I don’t like the art (I’m not big on Franco’s arc as for example) it’s not a big deal as long as the writing is good. The writing can compensate for the art, but Armstrong’s writing isn’t good enough to do that. I agree with Emmie that if they truly wanted to separate After the Fall and Aftermath as two distinctively different things, IDW shouldn’t have continued the numbering as they did. It creates the illusion that this is the direct continuation of After the Fall (which it kind of is anyway) rather than a separate story and new take on what *could* happen next. This doesn’t feel like a “this is what could have happened next” kind of story, more of a “this is what happened next.” Unfortunately that does have a little effect on my enjoyment of After the Fall. Obviously Armstrong's writing hasn't changed or altered what I thought about the writing in After the Fall but it has put a dampener on that story to know all of that led to what we got in Aftermath. The only way I can deal with it is knowing that Whedon hasn’t stamped this with the canon approval (I believe, I thought he had but I’ve been told a few times now he hasn’t) which lessens the pain. If this was, without doubt, the official continuation of the Angel franchise.. It’d be a real shame.
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menomegirl
Innocent Bystander
The righteous walk a thorny path.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 30
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Post by menomegirl on Jun 17, 2009 22:56:57 GMT -5
I've actually been entertaining the idea of writing an in-depth analysis of how Aftermath is potentially mythology destroying. I've been waiting til the last issue comes out before going into detail. If you do write that, are you going to post it to livejournal or just here?
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Post by Emmie on Jun 17, 2009 23:47:06 GMT -5
Oh it'll probably make the rounds, but most definitely will be on my LJ. This is probably going to happen later on as I'm not pushing myself to buy the last issue. I'll pick it up when I go to my comics store for the next BUFFY.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 18, 2009 7:38:57 GMT -5
It can only be mythology-destroying if you accept it as canon, though. Which it isn't.
Next issue (23) will be canon since it flows from a storyline Joss co-created, but that will be it, unless there's some big news regarding the future of the comic's creative team and arrangements. I know Chris Ryall would love to be able to call the series canonical. (And I'd like to see the Drusilla issues anointed as canon, too.)
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Jun 18, 2009 8:36:29 GMT -5
It can only be mythology-destroying if you accept it as canon, though. Which it isn't. Damn right. Emmie, I hope you write that essay, I'd love to read it. Even though I think "mythology destroying" is giving Aftermath far more credit than it deserves, I agree with you that the Angel title has become a directionless mess.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
Posts: 210
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Post by Marcos on Jul 24, 2009 2:00:25 GMT -5
Well, for me it is really easy. I go with canon. Not blindly ('cause the original Buffy movie/script/Origin comic is considered canon but to me it's not, since the show kinda un-canonized it in Becoming pt1), but in Angel's case, for me the whole saga ended once Bryan and Joss left the title.
One of the reasons I don't consider Aftermath canon: 'Cause it's embarassing. The art, dialogues and plots, I just couldn't read anymore. It made me sick, 'cause ATF was bloody brilliant all the way (really, IMO, one of the best Angel seasons ever. period). Also, Joss is not working on Aftermath. So, it's not officially canon, therefore I don't feel like I HAVE to read it. Btw, a canon story would never be this bad...
And the revelation of Illyria's original form? Astonishing. And the back-in-time thing? It was really good choice. Well, It would be terrible to see such great characters all dead (too bad they are being really badly used now). And It doesn't deny anything that happened ("I Will Remember You" came to mind).
Also, it wouldn't make such canon sense if LA stayed hellish that way and no one ever talked about it in Buffy's comic...
Bryan, I told u this many times, but once again: ATF rocked my socks off, man.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Jul 26, 2009 13:29:33 GMT -5
Seriously it was going well, and then it went all crazy bad. Like bad fan fiction bad. Does anyone else feel this way? I wouldn't go so far as to call it bad fanfic, but no, you're hardly the only one who doesn't have complaints about various aspects of it, and was generally left feeling underwhelmed (in particular, the cop-out-ness of the "reset button" at the end really bugs me). Altho the number of people who'll say "It was the absolute most perfect-est thing ever, how can you even think of criticizing any bit of it?" seems to be higher here than at other "Buffy"/"Angel" boards out there. I loved it thru #5, and re-read those issues multiple times while eagerly waiting for the next one to be released. Still haven't even gotten around to readings #'s 11-17 a second time yet... YES! YES! YES! YES! I agree. I stopped reading when they were like "Fred's back!" and I got so excited and they were like "Just joking! It's Illyria....Gotcha!". And I detest any story that has a time-reversal-blah-blah-blah. But I really (and I mean REALLY) loved the Cordy/Angel stuff. That made me really happy. Truth be told, I liked After The Fall. The writing was good, the art was good (really reminded me of the show when Urru did it). And I know I'm in the minority here, but I enjoyed Aftermath because of how campy it was, with the demon-shape-shifter and Kate in her gear. I don't know, it always made me smile.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jul 31, 2009 0:53:28 GMT -5
I loved After the Fall, but Aftermath isn't as epic... I'm not too into Aftermath. Honestly, for me, i think it's the art... but i don't know. i think i'm just too much of a newb in comics to understand how the comic title can change, but be the same comic. i don't know, give me a bit of time i'll come 'round.
but on a happier note: i'm really excited for Drusilla! I'm excited to see what Juliet's writing is like.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on Aug 3, 2009 13:28:46 GMT -5
I recently read issues #1-23 for the first time and I have to say that I was thoroughly disappointed. Urru's artwork is an acquired taste and by issue #3, I totally loved his work. I actually liked the first five issues. Good twists, good setup, etc. However, starting with #9, everything just went downhill. The artwork was absolutely horrendous, dialog felt really off - it just felt like fan fiction gone bad. Gunn was annoying, people kept dying and coming back, Cordelia's return felt unnecessary, Illyria became Godzilla, and Angel's shanshu thing is picked at again. Then boom, everything goes back to Not Fade Away, memories intact. It's just ridiculous! I couldn't picture this at all on TV. Now for Aftermath, I guess it was "okay". Though, it did feel more like a Charmed episode... Anyways, 23 was good, but I hated the fact that in order to know this "Non" character, you gotta read Spike: After the Fall, which I have yet to do. I'm hoping that Drusilla 24 and 25 are good, so I'm still collecting the issues, though I wish I hadn't wasted my money on this series. I should have stuck to TPB's.
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nagpo
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 60
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Post by nagpo on Aug 3, 2009 14:31:51 GMT -5
I think the angel comic series needs a good director. It seems like the writers are taking the characters away and just using them to write their own stuff. There doesnt seem to be any sort of direction that the story is headed in. The buffy comics have an over-arching plot but in angel its feels like everything is falling apart. I think mr.whedon needs to get involved a bit more.
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