littleshiva
Common Vampire
i wish to do more violence.[Mo0:3]
Posts: 88
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Post by littleshiva on Mar 20, 2008 0:14:57 GMT -5
Just reread it for the third time. Hell of an issue, hell of a writer, hell of a book.
I only hope that Gunn's hint that "the second half, that's where things really cook" turns out to be true...and hail, hail, the gang's all here! (more or less.)
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Post by Brian Lynch on Mar 20, 2008 0:15:50 GMT -5
The more I write ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL, the more I want to write a GROOSALUGG series someday. He's not even in ANGEL:ATF that much, but when he is, his dialog is such a joy to write.
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lorneisaboltsfan
Common Vampire
Start with the other Karaoke bars?If you're not too busy killing lawyers and setting girls on fire.[
Posts: 78
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Post by lorneisaboltsfan on Mar 20, 2008 0:42:25 GMT -5
The more I write ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL, the more I want to write a GROOSALUGG series someday. He's not even in ANGEL:ATF that much, but when he is, his dialog is such a joy to write. I would definately want a Groosalugg series.
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Post by hunter233 on Mar 20, 2008 3:17:44 GMT -5
Okie, first off, I loved the issue. It really did give a lot of what I wanted, and I've gotta give it props for that. But, as the unadulterated love has already been lavished upon it, I feel it's time to get into nitpicks.
First off, there were a couple things in this issue that seemed like mistakes. Perhaps they're not, and I'm just missing some piece of vital information, but I don't see how they couldn't be. The hair thing has been mentioned already. We've clearly seen both Spike and Angel grow hair before. Spike, as mentioned, when he went looney in the basement, and as for Angel, well, when he saved the puppy in the 20s, it was nice and short, only to go hippie long in the 70s. And if you want to claim that was a wig, then I will go further forward to Angel, Fearsome Hunter of Rats, who also had longer hair, and given the lack of personal hygiene, I doubt he'd bother to put on a wig every morning. This is a small error, however, and I should not have bothered to type so much about it. I can be silly like that sometimes. Still, it did take me out of the story a little bit as I had to scratch my head.
The bigger mistake is the line that led to Lorne's revelation. It would have been just another small mistake except for the fact it played such a large role in the narrative. "I thought Fred was the victim, but when all is said and done, she wins. She's in Heaven." Except she's not. And not because she's not with her loved ones. The most heartbreaking thing about Fred's death came when the gang learned that her soul was burned up as fuel for Illyria's resurrection. It didn't go to heaven. It didn't go anywhere. It was destroyed. Big mistake.
Ok, moving on. Overall, I really did like the issue, but I was a little underwhelmed by it. The gang getting back together didn't really surprise me, and honestly, I don't really understand what took them so long to do it. I remember thinking in the last issue "why is everyone not just teaming back up already?" It seemed kinda silly for them to be running around on their own for so long. And what's with the deal of Spider and them seeing Angel as the Big Bad? I'm assuming that we'll get some explanation of it in First Night and/or Spike:AtF, but right now I don't at all get why they're so insistent that Spike kill Angel. Finally, the "big twist" at the end that we've been promised for a few months was actually pretty predictable. It's been hinted at before, during her previous fight with Angel, and we knew it was a plotline that had been planned for Season 6. I had been assuming since issue 3 it was gonna happen at some point, I just didn't expect it to be the big twist cause it wasn't really all that twisty. Don't get me wrong, it was a fine ending. I think the only problem here is how much it was hyped up as the end-all be-all twist of the series. If it hadn't been for that, I would have enjoyed it a lot more. So let this be a lesson: ease up on the hype, it almost never ends well.
So, Brian, if you don't hate me now (Please don't! I'm very very sorry! I really love AtF and you've been doing a great job writing it! Even the show made mistakes sometimes! =) ), I have a question for you. What are the chances IDW might start marketing posters of the Justice League homage cover? Cause I want that on my wall. Badly.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Mar 20, 2008 8:41:47 GMT -5
I agree with you Hunter.
I turned to the last page and shrugged. At first I was confused because I thought Illyria just manifested herself as Fred. Now i'm kind of confused to whether it's really Fred or not, which is probably the point. People on the forums seem to think that it is really Fred, but we know how the Buffyverse works... give and take. It's kind of like X-files in that respect. BUT, we know they are in hell and it's having horrible effects on Illyria.
People may disagree with me but I kind of wish Fred was still dead (If indeed she isn't). Her death effected me the same way it did as Joyce's. Finite. Her death was tragic because her soul was burned up. She didn't go to Heaven, she didnt' go to a hell dimension. She was simply gone. I wish death did mean something in this universe. That's how we know we cared for the characters and it was good for their arc. Not bringing them back for "the juice" of storytelling. And I know, I know that Joss was going to bring her back for season six with her playing both roles. Well pooey on that too. I love Joss to death but he loves to bring back his characters. Remember when he wanted to bring back Tara and she was conviently "unavailable". Good for you Amber, you respected your character too much.
This is the big problem I have with comics. Superman dies. Superman back. Spiderman die. Spiderman back. It really starts to get hard to follow after a while... and kind of pointless. You have to start reading them for their self contained stories.
I know Angel is a Maxi-Series and you have to get all the good stuff out there (and there is plenty of good stuff - The writing, the sketching is getting so much better, and story itself is exactly where I would have wanted it on tv, but... I dont know I just kind of feel betrayed.
Why mourn for something that is a lie?
Oh BTW, this is my first post. I've been reading here for a while, just never signed up. LOVE YA, MEAN IT!
Iloveromy
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Post by Brian Lynch on Mar 20, 2008 11:15:46 GMT -5
Who said that Fred's soul was destroyed? He wasn't the most trustworthy of sources. I'm just sayin'.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Mar 20, 2008 11:59:34 GMT -5
Who said that Fred's soul was destroyed? He wasn't the most trustworthy of sources. I'm just sayin'. Ah ha! I knew Knox was a slimy-untrustworthy!!
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Mar 20, 2008 12:01:39 GMT -5
From the epsiode Shells:
When Gunn goes to the Dr Sparrow that gave him his lawyer knowledge, he pleads exchange his life for hers. Sparrow says that there’s nothing to bring back. Fred's soul was destroyed in the fires of resurrecting Illyria.
I guess he was lying.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Mar 20, 2008 12:06:28 GMT -5
I'm not saying he was, I'm not saying he wasn't, I'm just saying consider the source.
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Mar 20, 2008 12:15:02 GMT -5
well, i liked the issue, but that was the big twist? i really hoped cordy..... and i love fred, always did. but i feel kinda dissapointed about the twist!!! maybe on tv it could make more buzz... but.... i don't know... i agree with the guy who said they propably not starting make too much hype... it's a good thimg fred back... but a O.M.G W T F twist? not even close... cause the frist thing i tought was... illyria turn into fred... i still want cordy back... i disagree that joss made wrong in bring her back... i think, everyone likes her.. and everyone likes Illyria, i just think, that the way was wrong... it takes a little of the beautifull of fred's death... i mean... if angel could've chose send L.A to hell just to bring her back, it would be more good. what i want to say is, the way they brought her back dont give the credit her deserve it. ILLYRIA, Fred and Cordy Rules
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Mar 20, 2008 12:18:22 GMT -5
and about fred's soul... in "a hole in the world" "Shells" they say that when illyria resurrected, it destroyedfred's soul... thats why she never can back....
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 20, 2008 12:34:34 GMT -5
The bigger mistake is the line that led to Lorne's revelation. It would have been just another small mistake except for the fact it played such a large role in the narrative. "I thought Fred was the victim, but when all is said and done, she wins. She's in Heaven." Except she's not. It doesn't explain the Plot Twist Ending, and Brian has already offered an explanation of his own, but Lorne has been known to... convince himself of things that weren't entirely true in order to make himself feel better. Loved this issue. Buffy could learn a thing or two about how cool it is to have all the gang back together, doing what they do best; slugging it out, trading one-liners and just being the characters as we know and love them. None of this kerazy plot stuff. Very interested to see where they're going with Frillyria, too. Also, I realise it's an Important Plot Point to show that Angel has a reflection, but I am particularly pleased by the fact that his reflection was all... you know, shirtless. MB x
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 20, 2008 12:40:08 GMT -5
and about fred's soul... in "a hole in the world" "Shells" they say that when illyria resurrected, it destroyedfred's soul... thats why she never can back.... But this was said by people like Knox and Dr. Sparrow. They wanted Illyria so why would they tell Angel and Co. that Fred was still inside Illyria? "Oh she's still in there, so here's how you can save her!" They didn't want that to happen, so why wouldn't they tell Angel Inc. that Fred was gone forever? They wanted them to stop trying to save Fred. Anyway I loved this issue. By far my favorite Buffyverse comic to date. The fight was so well crafted and I just loved all of the dialogue during it, especially the stuff between Spike and Angel, that was probably my favorite moment in After the Fall. Groo was awesome as usual, and having everyone there fighting for Angel was really incredible, especially since he never asked anyone to help him. And Fred's return was just great, I can't wait to see how that plays out. It really was incredible how Illyria turned into her right when she saw Wesley, and I also loved how Spike reacted once Wesley returned. He knew what was going to happen to Illyria, and that last page has me really worried about Fred now. I'd imagine the next issue (after First night) will start with everyone jumping in and saving Fred and getting her away from the Lord's champion's. I also am really wondering just what in the heck Gunn is up to. One minute it seems he wants to do the right thing, and the next he is just a monster. Whatever he is planning, I am sure it is going to take everyone by surprise.
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Post by dgryphon on Mar 20, 2008 12:48:13 GMT -5
Just because most fans have always assumed that the doctor was telling the truth in an expositiony sort of way, it may not be so. I suppose we just have a tendency to assume the worst in a situation because in the Jossverse, things manage to say sucky most of the time.
I think Fred's soul surviving somewhere else (like wherever Angel's soul is when he's Angelus and it's not in a jar) is a valid explanation for the event at the end of #5. Besides, we'll probably get some explanation in First Night #2 and then ATF #9. I hate to wait that long but speculation fills the time. Ever. So. Slowly.
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 20, 2008 12:51:49 GMT -5
This issue makes me anticipate Spike: After the Fall a lot more now that we will hopefully get a lot more insight on what has been happening to Illyria these past few months in Hell-A. I really can't wait. Between Spike: AtF, First Night, and the conclusion of Wolves at the Gate over the next few months, I think now is just about as good a time as any to be a Buffyverse fan.
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lorneisaboltsfan
Common Vampire
Start with the other Karaoke bars?If you're not too busy killing lawyers and setting girls on fire.[
Posts: 78
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Post by lorneisaboltsfan on Mar 20, 2008 12:58:05 GMT -5
Who said that Fred's soul was destroyed? He wasn't the most trustworthy of sources. I'm just sayin'. It makes me wonder what would've happened had they succeeded in getting in touch with Willow after Fred died. Would she have been able to bring her back?
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Mar 20, 2008 13:38:00 GMT -5
Well I'm not one to write out big reviews, but yep I enjoyed it a lot. Nice to have that little extra with 24 pages too I will be negative though and say I found the Angel-hair thing pretty odd. Ok so he coudln't really shave in a mirror before, but of course vampries hair (on their head anyway) grows in the Buffyverse. Angel is seen throughout his life with different lengths, long as Angelus, short in the 1940's and 50's, long again in the 70's, long when Whistler finds him, short for Sunnydale, and he had that weird thing going on in the first few episodes of Angel Season 5... And the same goes for Spike So great issue, but I'm a nitpicker!!!
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Mar 20, 2008 13:40:53 GMT -5
I would like to say that the stuff with Gunn is breaking my heart. I believe he really does think that he is doing the right thing. Getting that orb, Blowing up Wolfram and Hart, Getting team Angel back together (he claims). He has good intentions but there is an evil in him that can't be controlled.
What I am looking forward to most is seeing how this is going to play out. I suspect it's going to end tragically.
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Mar 20, 2008 14:04:35 GMT -5
i think gunn is gonna die.... if so, i'm not gonna cry... i like him... but with this many caracters, well not gonna miss him...
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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 20, 2008 14:38:14 GMT -5
Hmm... the vampire glamour is still intact, and will only be destroyed when Angel is. Also it's far in him. I wonder that means. "Best not to ask." But I hope we find out soon!
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