iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 13, 2008 10:42:01 GMT -5
OK so I've read it.
When we last left Angel and company, Angel ran into Gunn. BOOM, end of issue.
The month and a half wait has been unbearable.
Now we get to see what happens. A LOT is explained. A LOT. And that is what is great and not so great about the issue.
We learn Gunn is working through visions given by that crucified demon on the wall from an earlier issue. Issue 2? Maybe? Well that thing is dead and let Gunn see some serious bizness before it died. Gunn is under the assumption that the visions are coming directly from The Powers That Be. That's cool. But getting to that point in this issue comes by way of a lot of gum flapping. Gunn seems to be an open book of information from which to spew his, apparently, not so evil deeds. It's comes off very grandiose and theatrical. It's still pretty cool, just really talky. It's like "My Dinner With Andre" only with vampires. So it's "My Dinner With Gunn".
Big surprise is...... SOMEBODY'S WORKING FOR THE OTHER SIDE. UH OH!!! I won't spoil it for you in here but if you think about it, it makes sense.
Also a tease at the dragon's name. Damn it, Brian! Tells us! Please!
So Runge's artwork. I'm sorry but it completely disintegrates by the end of the issue. The two panels of Gwen, Spike, and Connor are just sad sad sad. They reminded me of something I would have watched on Nick Jr. as a child. You know, like Doug Funny was going to pop into frame looking for Patti Mayonnaise or something.
So all in all it was a good issue. Not my favorite but I think i'll put it like this... You know how in Harry Potter, Order of the Phoenix is absolutely jam packed with important information but it just isn't as good as the rest? That's how I think of this issue. So while it ends up not being my favorite issue, it is absolutely crucial to further the arc to get to that issue that may very well end up making it the best story EVER. And without this issue that next great issue couldn't have been.
That's my two cents. I'm going to go read Everybody's Dead now.
Love ya, Mean it!
Iloveromy
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Post by KingofCretins on Aug 13, 2008 12:17:09 GMT -5
Revisiting the possibility of re-vamping Angel, I wonder about the stab wound he took. I think deconstructing the way in which someone can be sired in the Buffyverse would be a bad idea -- it would take the mythic quality out of it, reduce vampirism to the sort of "infection" you see in (IMO lesser) mythologies like "Blade", "Twilight", etc.
But, Angel's broadsword was coated in the blood of one of Gunn's henchvamps (or Gunn himself, still not clear on that). And then Gunn has all those wounds reopen, which ostensibly would drain Angel of his blood. So, it would have happened out of order, and without any biting involved, but I could see this being a narrative "in" to re-vamping him.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 13, 2008 12:29:23 GMT -5
Revisiting the possibility of re-vamping Angel, I wonder about the stab wound he took. I think deconstructing the way in which someone can be sired in the Buffyverse would be a bad idea -- it would take the mythic quality out of it, reduce vampirism to the sort of "infection" you see in (IMO lesser) mythologies like "Blade", "Twilight", etc. But, Angel's broadsword was coated in the blood of one of Gunn's henchvamps (or Gunn himself, still not clear on that). And then Gunn has all those wounds reopen, which ostensibly would drain Angel of his blood. So, it would have happened out of order, and without any biting involved, but I could see this being a narrative "in" to re-vamping him. I think Angel is going to die then go meet with some Wolfram and Hart employees that are going to send him back revamped. I think Wolfram and Hart is scared of what Gunn is up to. The enemy of my enemy...
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Post by hitnrun017 on Aug 13, 2008 17:15:10 GMT -5
Amazing issue, one of the best, BUT...... Gwen! Why?! How could you?! Now she is going to die next issue! The Dragon will eat her! And I'm going to go into a coma! Thank you Brian Lynch for ruining my life.
The Angel and Gunn stuff was brilliant, probably some of the best stuff of the series. Gunn has never been developed better. It was hard to read, pretty heartbreaking. I'm very excited to see what's going to happen to Angel. What Gunn did to him was BRUTAL, I actually cringed just thinking about it. Also, Gunn putting his picture over Angel's face was pretty creepy.
I loved how every character had something to do in this issue. Fred's cheerfulness was great, so was Connor wanting to go help Angel. Nina wanting to stay with Angel was very selfless, she is turning out to be a great character. The Gwen/Connor stuff at the beginning was very sweet, especially how she had a "list".
The art was pretty good, except for how sometimes character's didn't have faces and how Gwen suddenly turned into a man, but everything else was great. The coloring was A LOT better.
PS: Don't kill Gwen.
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platitude
Innocent Bystander
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Post by platitude on Aug 13, 2008 20:50:54 GMT -5
Wow. Lots of stuff was learned. I love the how Gunn's insanity was portrayed. The whole 'he-thinks-he-is-on-the-right-side-but-he's-really-totally-nuts' thing was very well done. Sad too.
Really like Angel's inner thoughts in this issue, particularly the reference to Angelus and how he felt about that.
Conner's luck with women really sucks. Poor guy.
Have to agree with Romy, Runge's art seemed to drop off (quality wise) dramatically at the end of the issue. But overall, definitely one of my favorite issues.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Aug 13, 2008 21:14:02 GMT -5
I still can't stop thinking about Gwen. I'm hoping she can be talked out of this, or at least reasoned with. It makes sense too, Gunn was her first, it was obviously a very special moment for her, something she waited for her entire life. It may just be that Gwen is one of my favorite characters, but I just can't help but feel bad for her. The tear on the last page breaks my heart, she's torn.
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
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Post by brandonr on Aug 13, 2008 21:45:21 GMT -5
There is so much to take in on this issue, that I think it warrants a re-read, then another re-read, followed by a careful re-reading. That's the only way to truly enjoy this thing.
A few things that I really loved about this issue:
1. The details in the background. Like when Angel sent the Dragon back to get the rest of the team, then turns to Gunn and his goons, you see the Dragon very small in a black sillouette in the far background, flying off. Also, when Angel is dusting all of Gunn's goons, he's talking to (I think) Gunn right in front of him, and in the background all you see is a vamps head with a little trickle of dust underneath of it, and a stake flying through the air. Also, the thing where Gunn put a picture of his head over Angel's head in the group picture of Angel, Fred, Wesley, and Cordy, was truly creepy.
2. Gunn. Man is he a loon. That crazy kid has gone all nuts and hasn't left any at the bar for anyone else. And making every wound that Angel's had reopen? That should, like, completely destroy the guy. Man's been bruised more than once.
3. Gwonnor. Love it. Period.
The only thing I didn't like about this issue was how Gwen was drawn. She didn't even resemble herself. And I'm not one to complain about an artists rendering of a character, because if I look at the character long enough, I can see them pretty well through the artist's eyes. But this Gwen really is horrible. Shockingly so. I don't remember her being that bad in the previous book.
I'm kind of perplexed about why Gwen is freaking, but my guess is that she sees Gunn doing what he did to Angel and just loses it. She's never been one for control, and with the absence of her gal pal Lisa, things can only be worse for her. I don't think she's going to die, but I think she's going to get severely injured, along with everyone else around her.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Aug 13, 2008 21:56:44 GMT -5
I'm kind of perplexed about why Gwen is freaking, but my guess is that she sees Gunn doing what he did to Angel and just loses it. She's never been one for control, and with the absence of her gal pal Lisa, things can only be worse for her. I don't think she's going to die, but I think she's going to get severely injured, along with everyone else around her. She's working for Gunn. He says, "I found her first", and then Gwen betrays them.
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Post by fillyofbadhorse on Aug 14, 2008 5:49:32 GMT -5
Ok..... the object Gunn used to remove Angel's magic. Looked an awful lot like an object in another comic book that was used to reverse or remove a spell.
And I'm not sure if the "I found her first" refers to Gwen, because of this object.
Boy am I fascinated to see what happens next!
These worlds are gonna collide, that's for sure.
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Joe
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Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
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Post by Joe on Aug 14, 2008 8:22:47 GMT -5
Oh I thought the "I found her first" was Cordelia. Gunn wanted the whole gang back together. (The ones in the picture he always looks at).
Angel - Found Cordelia - Missing Wesley - Found Fred- Found Gunn - Found Connor - Found
I thought he was referencing Cordelia. My other evidence that shows it might be her is SPOILER
The next issue shows a preview with a womans legs. Obviously a character reveal.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 14, 2008 8:30:42 GMT -5
I'm pretty certain the "I found her first" her is Gwen. Gwen is always looking out for numero uno. My big question is... is the dragon going to kill her?
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Post by Emmie on Aug 14, 2008 11:03:54 GMT -5
What a great issue. I keep going back to re-read scenes. Ha, not because I didn't understand them but there is such depth to the material this month. Excellent. The highlights were the Gunn/Angel scenes which were spectacularly written and Spike's voice. I loved Wes in this interchange with Fred: Fred: Isn't it exciting? Everyone's coming back. Wes: It would appear so. Only problem is nobody's coming back right." Wesley just nailed the entire After the Fall situation. After the Fall: all the characters you thought died in 'Not Fade Away' are back - only problem is they're coming back wrong. God, the spell Gunn pulled on Angel was brutal. Even before he whipped out that red orb, the sword through the gut was enough to end it for Angel. Spine shattered, hands and arms fractured, legs snapped - Angel is so broken. He's pushed himself beyond what is humanly possibly and relied on magic to get him through the mission. Why? Why else does Angel do anything? Guilt. Feeling responsible - in this case for sending LA to hell. Up against insurmountable odds, he brings out all these bags of tricks trying to save the city he believes he has damned. And look at the price to his body. Some fans have proposed that Angel becoming human in After the Fall is actually his shanshu. If this is his reward, it fits so perfectly with all the huge events of Angel's life. A moment of brief happiness and hope for the future, followed by the crushing tragedy and doom of his circumstances. And through it all, Angel's will and spirit remains indomitable. I love his character all the more for his bravery and yet shake my head because he's being such an idiot. He walks ALONE into Gunn's lair, surrounded by a gang of vamps. Can we say bad plan? Yes. Yes, we can. This action contrasts sharply with Angel's cunning manipulation of Gunn, yet was that really an intelligent plan? Angel's surrounded by super strong vampires and he decides to piss off Gunn by telling him he was wrong - that the mission Gunn had created was a lie. Before going into the building he acknowledges he can't take Gunn in a fight...so his plan is to piss off Gunn royally? Angel falls prey to both his greatest and weakest aspects of character - his guilt complex and his protective nature. His crushing guilt over what Gunn has become and his desire to protect others at the cost to himself both lead him to go in alone and result in his tragic end. Gunn's development is startling and completely fascinating. He's in complete denial of his evil nature and deluding himself into thinking he's the hero. All this time his plan to get the gang back together, he wanted to recreate Angel Investigations only rename it Gunn Investigations. He truly believes he can get it done better than Angel even without a soul. That he can overcome his nature. There's been a lot of criticism that Gunn didn't have as much character development for seasons 2-4 compared to all the others. Well, After the Fall played catch-up to the nth degree and it's all pretty amazing. Okay, Gwen. What the hell? She never seemed the type to be easily manipulated. I'll have to wait and see where this is going. I also liked seeing reminders that Angel is actually pretty smart -- like how he decides to try to play Gunn. In the televised seasons, Angel's intellect became a little bit of a punchline at times -- he wasn't the smooth-operating liar and improv artist he was in, for example, 1.04 "I Fall To Pieces" or 2.04 "Untouched" in using fake personas. Here, we see that skill come back as he tries to con Gunn about the visions. Yes! I love the return of narrative respect for Angel's intellect, especially in Angel's internal monologue. Surrounded by the genius of Fred and Wesley on AtS, Angel was shown to rely on them more for finding the answers and it really downplayed his own intelligence. The past memories of Angel researching on his own became a distant memory. It's wonderful to see Angel being portrayed as so cunning. Maybe Glowy-Just-Let-It-Go-Baby-Cordy with Healing Energy Action is lurking out of frame to heal human Angel. Oh god, I hope not. That was one of the most cringe-worthy moments of the entire series for me. I hope Angel's return is dealt with in a more grave manner.
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Post by Wyndam on Aug 14, 2008 15:19:52 GMT -5
Finally got a chance to go out and buy this issue, and even though I have already seen Garner's cover a lot already, it still looked very impressive sitting there on the shelf. Just really amazing work.
As for the issue, it wasn't my favorite, but definitely in the top 3. The stuff between Gunn and Angel was just fantastic. I had really high hopes for their encounter, and this issue definitely exceeded them. I loved that Brian took his time and let Gunn and Angel have their chat before Gunn goes completely crazy and beats the hell out of Angel. Angel really wanted to help Gunn, although as soon as he learned Gunn was a vamp, he was pretty sure he knew which way the encounter would go.
The visions explanation was really interesting as well, as we finally get an idea about what Gunn was up to in the first few issues. It's clear Gunn has gone bananas, and I couldn't be happier with his development in this series. He's become a very compelling bad guy, and I am glad he got so much face time in this issue. I probably haven't been this excited about a villain since Buffy Season 5's Glory.
I thought, going in, that Gunn was just going to beat Angel the old fashioned way (and possibly kill him), but Gunn stepped up his game and took it one step further. Reopening and reversing every wound Angel had received since L.A. went to hell was just brutal, and I have no idea what will happen with Angel next. The covers for issue #12 make me fear the worse, but the preview for issue #12 is also very compelling as well.
The biggest surprise in this issue though, was Gwen's betrayal. I did not see that coming, and I also look forward to how that will turn out. Really surprising turn by her, especially after that nice moment between Gwen and Connor earlier in the issue.
Overall, just a really outstanding issue. This series has just been steamrolling ever since issue #9, and I hope that continues all the way through issue #16 (or #17 if After the Fall is extended).
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Aug 14, 2008 15:28:51 GMT -5
Pretty good issue. The Angel/Gunn scenes were the best. Oh and nobody telling Spike that Angel is human. So Angel is dead? Dun, dun, dun. He is not having much luck, shame Wesley ahs been pushed to the side these past few issues though. And Gwen betrayed the group...bad Gwen! One complaint...I never knew Gwen had a sex change and is now a man. More or less in every panel she looks like a guy with long hair. Nina wasn't as bad but there was one where it looked like Angel but with long blond hair, weird. Apart from that good issue. I really wish that it wasn't a month to wait for the issue. It is to long, same goes for Buffy.
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Post by fillyofbadhorse on Aug 14, 2008 17:46:48 GMT -5
Ok..... the object Gunn used to remove Angel's magic. Looked an awful lot like an object in another comic book that was used to reverse or remove a spell. And I'm not sure if the "I found her first" refers to Gwen, because of this object. Boy am I fascinated to see what happens next! These worlds are gonna collide, that's for sure. Just asking- did anyone else notice that the object Gunn used to reverse Angel's magic is the same or similar to the object in Buffy season 8 that is used to reverse the magic used on the scythe?
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
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Post by balesthebloody on Aug 14, 2008 18:01:39 GMT -5
This a great issue! I was expecting their to be a true Angel vs Gunn showdown the whole issue, but was surprised to see Gunn take the route of words to confronting Angel, which I must say was better than any "fang fight"! Gunn was never one of my favorite characters on the show, but in the comics Brian and Joss have turned him into one of the top five "Angel" characters. To see Gunn as an emotional wreck is great, I mean if I was in his sweatshirt I would be the same way. Gunn now has the visions, that was a shock. After reading ten issues and not seeing The Powers try and help Angel, I was starting to worry that they didn't care about Los Angelus. Now we see that they, or so it seems The Powers, have been turning wheels to try and get Los Angelus back on track, but why not use Angel? Why choose a demon? Those are things that I hope are answered soon. I must say that Fred is a mess too. I feel so sorry for the poor girl. At times I wish that she could move on. I know that means losing her, but seeing her like this kills me. Now back to Gunn, who I think, is the star of the issue. Now we know Gunn's plan involves Slayers, this can't be good at all. I think that Gunn knew Angel was human before he used the thing he took from Kr'ph in the first issue. Now to the traitor situation. Gwen, it makes sense. The only person she really got close to was Gunn, but when Gunn says "I got to her first." I have a feeling he is NOT talking about Gwen. I have a feeling, and I could be wrong, that when Gunn got the visions he went looking for someone. That someone is Cordy. Gunn knows that Angel loves Cordy and telling him that she is working with himself, and not Angel, would kill Angel. So that is how I view that, I may be wrong but we will just have to wait to find out. This issue goes down in my top five of "AtF" Bring on issue twelve!
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Post by jacenskylo on Aug 15, 2008 2:02:29 GMT -5
I was reading the comic today and I'm confused about 2 things. 1. Does Gunn actually have visions or is he simply insane? 2. How does Gwen betray the fang gang the artwork is somewhat confusing?
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Post by fillyofbadhorse on Aug 15, 2008 2:47:54 GMT -5
I was reading the comic today and I'm confused about 2 things. 1. Does Gunn actually have visions or is he simply insane? 2. How does Gwen betray the fang gang the artwork is somewhat confusing? I think Gunn's visions from the octopus-like creature are suspect - there are plenty of people questioning that, so you are not alone in wondering if the visions are real or not. As for Gwen's betrayal, it looked as though she was using her power to protect Gunn and crew from Connor, Illyria, Lorne and the Dragon. As for why..... do you remember when she mentioned meeting Connor after LA went to Hell? She was being attacked by "sewer octopi"... which is a pretty apt description of the creature Gunn fed off of to get the "visions". So when Gunn says "I found her first" it appears he is referring to Gwen. However.... I think that might be a misdirection, because Gunn uses a red lens to "de-magic" Angel. Much like the one the Japanese vamps use in Buffy Season 8 to remove the power of the Japanese slayer before they hung her up as a welcome present for Buffy. So perhaps there is another "her" that Gunn is referring to, one that gave him the lens. So here's my BIG theory. I think the time slips in Angel and the time travel in Buffy are related. One of the time slips in Angel shows Spike standing over headless Spider in a future city with flying cars (very Fray-like). Perhaps Gunn has been contacted in one of these slips and was given the red lens. I don't know exactly how, but I think this is all going to tie together in time. And... I think there's even an element of Dr. Horrible to this, in that who the "good" guy is or isn't will become ever muddier....
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Post by faithswatcher on Aug 15, 2008 9:20:31 GMT -5
Didnt Gunn get the red thing in like issue one or two. Its back when "Team gunn" are introduced and you think he is a hero. Then the issue ends on the surprise that he has been vamped.
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trunkstheslayer
Potential Slayer
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Aug 15, 2008 13:49:09 GMT -5
He isn't using a red lens folks. I just wanna kill this bug off and be done with it. It's the artifact that he took from that demon way back in the first issue. This isn't the same thing used on the slayers in even a tiny way. We're looking at a small lens versus what looks to be a gemstone of some kind. That whole "no planned crossovers at this point" line coming back to mind.
As for the timeslips: That's very obviously not what happened in Buffy. The Buffy time travel bit is all but exactly what we saw in Season Seven's "Get It Done".
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