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Post by chronicboredom on Sept 4, 2008 13:38:10 GMT -5
Well, as always, Brian Lynch is just AMAZING. It does throw a lot of information our way but there is always the element that it's from Wolfram and Heart so how much of it can we trust? Every issue that comes out this series gets better and better but I'm scared we're going to lose a few characters if, and when, LA is back to normal (Wes, Gunn and Fred) after a few things that were said. Seems a waste to bring them back then lose them but I have faith in Mr Lynch Overall, top (as always). For those that want to know... Cordelia (or maybe not, it isn't exactly clarified that it is actually the real Cordelia but I think it is) comes to make Angel's death easier. Gunn is moving Angel's body when Wes appears,Wes recoils in pain and is surrounded by light. Wolfram and Heart tell him everything. Hell was part of the plan, everything was orchestrated to get Angel for themselves. The shansu was always for him. Angel tells Cordelia he needs to go back. Wes then gives Angel (body on the floor not Angel with Cordelia, heh confusing a bit) a vision of the prophercy, Angel re-vamped and he has seemingly killed pretty much everyone. The double page spread is chilling. Cue back to Angel (after seeing the vision) and Cordelia, he looks horrified and she asks what's wrong, he has changed his mind, he is ready to die. TO BE CONTINUED!
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Post by jessesopher on Sept 4, 2008 15:27:07 GMT -5
Dang.... I can't wait to read this one.
I'm actually thinking about skipping my class tonight so I can go to my LCS to get it. Hrmmm...
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Sept 4, 2008 16:03:35 GMT -5
OMG! ANGEL: ATF ROCKS!
</geek>
Brian, I would like to apologize for misjudging your writing on here (around issue 5-ish?).
Wow, this issue is great.
I want something Tara to come back to Buffy, sort of as Cordelia did here (Assuming it was her, and she isn't evil.)
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Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
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Posts: 1,312
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Post by Whedon Fan on Sept 4, 2008 16:28:04 GMT -5
Amazing issue. Why are people putting spolier warnings I have read lots of times that we can post spoliers if we want and that you are not to come to the thread if you've not read it. Anway just encase I ruin anything.......HERE LIES SPOILERS Cordelia is back...well sort of. It was a sort of guide to help Anel in his death sort of like whne Skip helped Cordelia in season 3. Also the dragons name is also Cordelia...Angel named it after her Brilliant scene between Wesley and Gunn. GUNN: Vampire WES: Ghost GUNN: Sucks WES: Truely Very good issue and we learn a lot from it. It really did set up plenty of things for next issue. The ending was amazing and even though Angel was evil in it and has killed more or less the entire city it was so cool to see him in a vamp face!
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Sept 4, 2008 16:32:43 GMT -5
Best. Issue. Yet. Period.
MILD SPOILERS BELOW, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK OF KNOWLEDGE!
I can't believe how much info we're given in this issue. Wolfram and Hart's entire plan is revealed, and while its not really shocking, it definitely is juicy. We learn that Angel truly is the one meant for the Shanshu (I never doubted it), and we also get an awesome two page spread of Angel and his role in the apocalypse. It just SCREAMED Angelus to me, but I'm not making any predictions about whether or not he's coming back, because, it could've just been a really pissed-off-and-at-the-end-of-his-rope Angel.
The art was to die for, save for the initial reveal of Cordelia. Man did she look ugly. Her nose. Bah. And Angel's head looked a little large in one panel, but other than that I think the art was pretty dang solid throughout, and I really enjoyed it. I think Mooney has a great grip on the look and feel of the Angelverse and its characters, and I wouldn't mind having him finish out the rest of the series, even though I know he's not going to. And Runge's two page spread was just breathtaking.
I'm constantly amazed at just how much exposition Lynch has managed to stuff into these last few issues. We've had a lot explained lately, and its written so greatly that it doesn't slow the book down, or take away from the action (movement of the story, etc) like large amounts of exposition usually do.
Illryia continues to be a fun character to watch, and her switching from Fred to Illyria and back again occurs at the most appropriate times. The exchange between Illyria and Nina reveals so much about both characters, but especially Nina, that I'm seriously going to have to re-read it to grasp everything that was set in the undertones. Also, did anyone notice that the street Illyria was on when she said "Yes. We do." was named "Doyle"?
Gwen's motivation for her betrayal is revealed as well, and although it seems as if her reasons are what most fans would've guessed--"He" promised to let her touch again--I think there's a lot more going on that she's alluding to but that we can't yet fully grasp. Who is "He"? Gunn? Sounds like she's referring to him, but I'm not so sure.
Like I said, this book is by far the best, IMO, and I'm glad that nothing was spoiled before I read it because it seriously would've ruined it for me. Usually I don't mind, but this was just too big, and you really need to read it for yourself.
Now I'm all depressed because we only have 5 more issues of Lynchian writing left.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 4, 2008 17:45:17 GMT -5
***Now that the issue has been released in the U.S. as well as overseas, everybody feel free to discuss the issue without any spoiler warnings.*** An amazing issue. The two page spread drawn by Runge of vamped Angel killing everyone was amazing. When I turned the page I was in awe. I loved that Cordy was back. Her presence fit in perfectly and her voice was spot on. The dragon is named Cordelia? *shakes head and laughs* I think it's interesting that Cordy looks most like the Cordy we knew from AtS season 1 and early s2 with the long hair. Question: Why does Wesley trust his visions from W&H? Why doesn't he wonder if W&H is lying about Angel massacring everyone? The agent of W&H said that Wesley was "the key" and that "he's the reason" W&H will win. Seems like we really need to be questioning Wesley's actions right now. Is he being manipulated with lies to betray his friends like before ("the father will kill the son") or is he knowingly showing Angel this vision of him killing everyone so that Wesley will get something in return for aiding W&H's agenda? Issue 13's solicitation says that "someone makes Wesley an offer he can't refuse, even if it means certain doom for everyone around him." Is this already affecting Wesley's actions in Issue 12? Wesley asks "Why did you bring me here if I'm not allowed to help?" Maybe he was brought there not to help, but to lie to Angel. Angel's greatest fear is going dark and killing everyone he loves. Showing him that vision is going to send him running. Aw just caught the "Doyle" street sign in the panel where Illyria says "Yes. We do." Angel, Cordy and Doyle. Corporeal was spelled "corporal" again. Irksome.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Sept 4, 2008 18:48:08 GMT -5
did anyone else notice the page where illyria says "yes. We Do. there's a street sign that says Doyle and then there's a poster that says coming soon? am i just looking too deep into that or is that a hidden message?
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Post by buffyverseforever on Sept 4, 2008 19:08:28 GMT -5
Well,they certainly made sure that we couldn't miss the Doyle sign-I was really struck by how in our face it was. That's gotta be significant....
Best wishes,
Scott
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 19:11:37 GMT -5
Noticed the sign and the billboard too... and pretty much went down the same train of thought. And Emmie, caught the "corporal" flub again, and it made me want to kill the editor. Seriously! It was an awesome read, but that just irks me to no end. Can I volunteer to proof-read future issues? Really... it's no trouble at all.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Sept 4, 2008 19:43:52 GMT -5
also, nothing against the artist but on a few pages, Gwen and Illyria look like fat men in costumes. also in one of the panels Nina has red hair and a pink shirt on and in the next panel, she has blond hair and a blue jacket. is that the same person? cuz it kinda seems like the chick Angel saved in issue 1. but she's not in any other panel. one question. What?
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 20:05:36 GMT -5
also, nothing against the artist but on a few pages, Gwen and Illyria look like fat men in costumes. also in one of the panels Nina has red hair and a pink shirt on and in the next panel, she has blond hair and a blue jacket. is that the same person? cuz it kinda seems like the chick Angel saved in issue 1. but she's not in any other panel. one question. What? I actually didn't think that it was a flub. Illyria was undergoing a transformation then, so I just read it as a flash of light, that caused the colors to "change"... like how colors look different in the light of a fire. But maybe it was... *shrug*
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Sept 4, 2008 20:10:06 GMT -5
That was a very good issue.
A few questions about things I'm not to sure on and need cleared up. So, Angel was meant for the Sanshu prophecy...but didn't he sign that away in Not Fade Away? Or was that just a set up? Confused, or was this said? So, their plan was to make Angel sanshu, then make Gunn try and kill him, and have him re-vamped and evil and try to kill everyone?
I LOVED THE ENDING THOUGH <3 Up there with Issue 3's ending.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 4, 2008 20:26:40 GMT -5
also, nothing against the artist but on a few pages, Gwen and Illyria look like fat men in costumes. also in one of the panels Nina has red hair and a pink shirt on and in the next panel, she has blond hair and a blue jacket. is that the same person? cuz it kinda seems like the chick Angel saved in issue 1. but she's not in any other panel. one question. What? I actually didn't think that it was a flub. Illyria was undergoing a transformation then, so I just read it as a flash of light, that caused the colors to "change"... like how colors look different in the light of a fire. But maybe it was... *shrug* Nope it's not a flub. It was Illyria shifting time. Not only does Nina's hair color change but so does her outfit and the background. We go from the background where Illyria smashes a table in rage to a futuristic background with metallic walls to a room with a cradle to a room with a huge hole in the back of the wall. There is atleast 4 different backgrounds on that page. One is the present time, one is the metallic one, one is the cradle one, one is the huge hole in the wall. It looks like Illyria's power to time shift occurs when she is very emotional. So yes it is Nina in all those panels, but her outfit and hair change as time changes. A few questions about things I'm not to sure on and need cleared up. So, Angel was meant for the Sanshu prophecy...but didn't he sign that away in Not Fade Away? Or was that just a set up? Angel did sign his shanshu away in NFA, but Wesley says in this issue that they hadn't filed the contract before LA became Hell-A. So the shanshu prophecy is still in effect. No matter what W&H says, I've always found the concept that Angel can sign away his destiny as ludicrous. If Buffy could've done that she'd have signed away the prophecy in the Codex saying she was going to die at the Master's hands. Sahjahn being killed by Connor in 'Origin' was destined and look at all the efforts he went to trying to prevent it, all for naught. Destiny and prophecy said Connor would kill Sahjahn and everything Sahjahn did in rewriting history couldn't prevent it. If it is so easy to sign away a prophecy, why didn't Sahjahn sign his so he could live? I wonder if W&H having Angel sign away his shanshu was as much a manipulation as the whole 'Angel is in hell' scenario. Maybe they just wanted Angel to believe he had signed away his shanshu and thus he would have no hope. Psychological warfare. It would definitely weaken Angel if he had no hope helping him fight. Isn't that W&H's ultimate plan - breaking Angel to their will?
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 20:49:46 GMT -5
Whoa... totally missed that, Em. Thanks for pointing it out. I'd just bulldozed through the issue before taking a shower. Going through it again, you're right. Questionable choice of hair color though.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Sept 4, 2008 20:57:27 GMT -5
The best issue so far, no doubt.
Cordelia! Although I was sadly spoiled about her coming back, it was still shocking to see. The moments between her and Angel were very bittersweet. It's no doubt that Charisma and David had great chemistry, and it translated very well here. I hope we find out what she REALLY is.
I'm hoping Gwonner survives. Obviously Connor is pissed off, and it's easy to understand why, but Gwen shouldn't be punished too severely, she's being manipulated. Kudos for her zapping away Spike and telling him shut up.... that was cool.
This was easily the best issue for Wesley, amazing stuff. His exposition was a great read, not in anyway boring. Although Gunn is evil (and pretty insane), I can't help but feel SORT of bad for him. He thought he had an amazing plan, and turned out to be all lies. That vision was CRAZY.
Stephen Mooney's art was so good! He easily got the best likenesses of the entire series so far. Runge's two-page spread was amazing aswell, probably HIS best of the series.
Some speculation:
I don't think Fred is... Fred. Not at all. In Spike AND Angel: ATF, I just don't think it feels ENTIRELY like Fred, and a moment in this issue really made me believe it: The last panel on page 7 was ALL white with some dialouge, which we find out on the next page is Fred's. I instantly thought of The White Room, and then a few panels later, Wesley disappears like he has before when the Partners need him. Just seems kind of suspicious. Could it possible be faux-Fred from Wesley's First Night story?
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Sept 4, 2008 21:15:22 GMT -5
"Corporal" also works, in the context.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Sept 4, 2008 21:21:21 GMT -5
EMMIE: Great call on Wesley being the key. Totally forgot about that. That might, indeed, become a factor of how much we can trust this vision. The best issue so far, no doubt. I'm partial to #1, but this issue is DEFINITELY the runner-up. Love it, love it, love it. Eh, Gwen can go either way for me. She was a cool recurring character, but she is a wee bit overrated. I kinda disagree about the punishment issue, because think about it this way. Michael from "Lost" was being manipulated. Does that take away from his crimes? True that, man. True that. Nah. Highly doubt it. Wesley knew instantly that it wasn't Fred in his story, and the others have been around her long enough to know the distance. Plus, faux-Fred would have to be possessing Illyria's body... not thinking that's possible.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 4, 2008 21:36:50 GMT -5
EMMIE: Great call on Wesley being the key. Totally forgot about that. That might, indeed, become a factor of how much we can trust this vision. Remember also that Wesley is on one of this issue's covers passing through a doorway and holding out a W&H business card. We can't forget that Wesley is an agent of W&H who may be acting in their interests as well as Wes might have his own agenda that while running parallel to Angel's doesn't necessarily mirror it. "Corporal" also works, in the context. Angel says "Can't one good guy be corporal in this room?" Upon looking this up, it turns out that corporal and corporeal are two very similar words both using the Latin root for body, corpus. Both adjectives date back to the 14th century, though evidence of the use of "corporeal" predates "corporal" by a few decades. Ah, that tricksy English fooled us again. Definitions from http://www.webster-online-dictionary.org: However, in modern practical use there seems to be precedent set for saying that "corporeal" is the more aptly suited term in this case than "corporal". According to the Columbia Guide to Standard American English: So while "corporal" is not exactly incorrect, the use of the word "corporeal" would be the more appropriate word choice.
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soulbrave
Common Vampire
You?re a Hell of a Slayer and You smell Good[Mo0:13]
Posts: 72
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Post by soulbrave on Sept 4, 2008 23:28:26 GMT -5
I Really, Really , Really Like it this Issue! My Favorite so Far.. I like the Cordy close-death context... =P and the vision! and everything! =)
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2008 23:32:55 GMT -5
I have to agree. My griping about spelling aside, I haven't been this blown away by an issue of AtF since... well, before First Night. That kinda wrecked the momentum for me, plus the art direction change to the various splendiferous shades of brown didn't help. But this issue just felt a lot more epic than a book its mere size should. And given that most of the action happens in a room, it's a pretty amazing feat. Kudos, Brian on the excellent writing (the offer to proofread is still on the table )! And I'm glad that two page stunner you promised didn't disappoint. Amazing, but kinda unsettling at the same time. Cordy and the Shanshu deal really made me happy, have no idea why.
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