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Post by snizapman6294 on Jun 16, 2009 21:09:51 GMT -5
i still retain hope.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 16, 2009 21:22:00 GMT -5
Can you develop? :-)
Why do you think it would suit the story better to have Fred's soul saved?
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 18, 2009 14:48:34 GMT -5
Because it would mean Wesley couldn't even be happy in death, as Fred wouldn't exist in the afterlife to be with him and Illyria's speech in "Not Fade Away" is cheapened.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 18, 2009 15:06:13 GMT -5
Because it would mean Wesley couldn't even be happy in death, as Fred wouldn't exist in the afterlife to be with him and Illyria's speech in "Not Fade Away" is cheapened. I don't think I really want Wesley to be happy in his afterlife. The beauty of Fred's horrible death is that even death can't reunite her and Wesley, since she is non existent both on Earth and in any kind of afterlife. It makes the pain for Wesley even more unbearable. But i understand it breaks some people's hearts here. Oh well, it's just a tv show.
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Post by VampSlayer on Jun 18, 2009 16:23:25 GMT -5
I always hope that the doctor lied, but I really do think that she is gone.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 18, 2009 21:19:47 GMT -5
The fact that the Doctor was a bad guy doesn't necessarily makes him a liar.
I never was a big fan of Fred but she gained my respect and in some way my fascination for her the day they made her a martyr.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jun 23, 2009 12:55:21 GMT -5
Because it would mean Wesley couldn't even be happy in death, as Fred wouldn't exist in the afterlife to be with him and Illyria's speech in "Not Fade Away" is cheapened. The whole point of Illyria's speech in "NFA" is that none of it is true. She's lying to him.
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Matthew
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Post by Matthew on Jul 2, 2009 21:53:28 GMT -5
I voted for the 'sole destroyed' one because that's what happened on the show and there is nothing we can do about. When Fred died she died, her soul didn't get to go to heaven or any other afterlife. Which is brutal for the Fred fans but hey what can you do about it? Nothing.
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Post by rebeccaplant on Jul 7, 2009 17:19:58 GMT -5
I was shocked indeed when they told us that in the Buffyverse there is something worse than death, and it is to get your soul destroyed... I don't want them to take that away from us. It was a powerful and terrifying message. To take that back would diminish the quality of the show.[/i]
I absolutely agree!!!
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 7, 2009 18:09:35 GMT -5
I took me about a year after S5 ended to finally notice, "Hey, the only proof they have that Fred's soul was destroyed was the word of the creepy doctor!" Maybe he's lying. Maybe he even thought he was telling the truth (was he even an acolyte of Illyria, or just paid off by them to get Gunn's sig?). But what annoys the crap out of me now every time I watch those eps is that they never did any research of their own to confirm that what he said was actually true. Her soul being destroyed doesn't make her death any more heartbreaking to me. It was awful when Joyce died. And Tara. And Anya. Doyle. Cordy. Wes. The fact that there was no nonsense thrown in there about their souls going pfft! doesn't make their deaths any easier to take...
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 7, 2009 18:44:08 GMT -5
After the Fall #17 left it open to make your own mind up, and I was happy with that.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 7, 2009 18:57:42 GMT -5
But what annoys the crap out of me now every time I watch those eps is that they never did any research of their own to confirm that what he said was actually true. Who had the time? It was either find a way to stop the process, or Fred died, soul be damned. The important thing was to prevent Fred from dying, not ensure that her soul wouldn't be harmed, even if she died. Angel and Spike were on a mission to the Deeper Well. Wes was a mess (and quite frankly, a lot of good it would've done if he had ignored Fred throughout and came back seconds before she died, announcing that her soul indeed was bound to be pfft-ed or otherwise). Gunn felt guilty and wasn't he stabbed? That leaves the entire Wolfram & Hart, but no one was leading them, and trusting Evil Inc. with sensitive stuff like that probably isn't the best idea. After the fact, they had to deal with Illyria and her instability. Then it was the whole take down the Black Thorn deal. Then, we segued into "After the Fall".
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Post by Emmie on Jul 7, 2009 19:05:32 GMT -5
But what annoys the crap out of me now every time I watch those eps is that they never did any research of their own to confirm that what he said was actually true. Well, considering how obsessively Wes gets into research mode post-Shells - I'd like to think that he confirmed it. But it was never shown and that's a shame. Yeah, there wasn't time during Shells, but Wes made the time (from not sleeping or shaving apparently) to obsessively research Illyria and presumably Fred's soul. But who knows? Wes clearly did have the time though. More importantly, he'd make the time no matter what. It really can go either way - he's so illogical that he wouldn't pay attention to anything else while researching his personal obsession about Fred and Illyria or he's so illogical that he doesn't bother to confirm that Fred's soul is destroyed.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 7, 2009 19:22:40 GMT -5
Well, considering how obsessively Wes gets into research mode post-Shells - I'd like to think that he confirmed it. But it was never shown and that's a shame. Yeah, there wasn't time during Shells, but Wes made the time (from not sleeping or shaving apparently) to obsessively research Illyria and presumably Fred's soul. But who knows? Wes clearly did have the time though. More importantly, he'd make the time no matter what. It really can go either way - he's so illogical that he wouldn't pay attention to anything else while researching his personal obsession about Fred and Illyria or he's so illogical that he doesn't bother to confirm that Fred's soul is destroyed. Wes comes in at the end of the conversation between Gunn and the doctor, and after knocking the doc out, asks "What he said about Fred--about her soul--is it true?" Well, how's Gunn supposed to know? He heard everything that you did, Wes. Yet Gunn nods and says "Yes", and that's all that's ever shown, as far as them bothering to confirm it. Point taken about all the research Wes did on Illyria afterward, but as a fan I would just rather have had it definitively backed up by a character that I believed knew what he/she was talking about, and so lacking that, I still consider it a very open question about what exactly happened to her soul...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 7, 2009 20:25:54 GMT -5
Her soul was not destroyed. The only "evidence" we have to believe it was, was the testimony of an evil sociopath with a vested interest in no one attempting to get her soul back.
I fail to see how a person's death is "cheapened" by their soul not being destroyed.
There's only so much tragedy needed to make a point.
No power in the universe can extinguish a human soul. Fred is in an afterlife somewhere.
And this is probably the only time you'll ever hear me say this: even Joss wouldn't convince me otherwise.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jul 7, 2009 20:57:19 GMT -5
Point taken about all the research Wes did on Illyria afterward, but as a fan I would just rather have had it definitively backed up by a character that I believed knew what he/she was talking about, and so lacking that, I still consider it a very open question about what exactly happened to her soul... We're never given any indication that Sparrow was lying, and the whole "he was evil" excuse doesn't fly with me. To quote one of my favourite superheroes, "It's been my experience that the bad guys are too insufferably pleased with themselves to lie. It's the good guys you have to watch out for." No power in the universe can extinguish a human soul. Fred is in an afterlife somewhere. I actually always wondered what happened to people's souls when they get turned into vampires. It's been implied that, when a person gets sired, their soul just ends up floating around in limbo: Fred: So now... Angel's soul is just floating around out there? Willow: Yeah, until I can channel it into the Orb of Thessulah. Also, when Angel and Spike got re-ensouled, they gained no memories of the afterlife, so presumably they don't go there. So what happens when a vampire gets dusted? Does the original human soul just stay floating around forever? Does it finally move on to the afterlife? We saw Ghost Darla in "Inside Out", but that was Darla the vampire, not her human soul.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 7, 2009 21:05:30 GMT -5
Her soul was not destroyed. The only "evidence" we have to believe it was, was the testimony of an evil sociopath with a vested interest in no one attempting to get her soul back. I fail to see how a person's death is "cheapened" by their soul not being destroyed.There's only so much tragedy needed to make a point. No power in the universe can extinguish a human soul. Fred is in an afterlife somewhere. And this is probably the only time you'll ever hear me say this: even Joss wouldn't convince me otherwise. Wow, if even Joss wouldn't be able to change your opinion on this, there's really no point debating then! But we'll all agree that you are not talking about what you "believe to be true" but about what "you want to be true". All you do is try to persuade (kid?) yourself that Fred's soul "has to be somewhere". How can you declare with such certainty that no human soul can be extinguished in the Buffyverse when we don't even know for sure that the concept of "soul" exists in our own universe. Anything's possible in the Buffyverse. And yes it cheapens her death. Her character became an icon because she became a martyr by being the only person in the Buffyverse to ever have their soul destroyed. Take that back, and she's just another random death. How is that doing justice to the iconic figure she turned herself into?
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 7, 2009 21:08:49 GMT -5
Who had the time? It was either find a way to stop the process, or Fred died, soul be damned. The important thing was to prevent Fred from dying, not ensure that her soul wouldn't be harmed, even if she died. Oops, missed this post originally. Sorry, Xi. They didn't have the time as it was happening, but if they'd found out afterwards that her soul was still out there somewhere, they might've found a way to bring her back. Probably not, but as Angel himself said, it was only her body that died--it was the soul that matters. ("Flash-fried in a pillar of fire saving the world--I got better.") We're never given any indication that Sparrow was lying, and the whole "he was evil" excuse doesn't fly with me. To quote one of my favourite superheroes, "It's been my experience that the bad guys are too insufferably pleased with themselves to lie. It's the good guys you have to watch out for." But again, what are the doc's qualifications for being so certain of that that it wasn't worth double-checking? Like I said, was he even one of Illyria's followers, like Knox? Is that why he helped get the sarcophogus released? Or was he just in a position to get them what they needed, and they approached him and offered a ton of $$ (or maybe a top position in Illyria's Army of Doom) to help them out? That was never made clear, so even if he thinks he's telling the truth, I don't have enough evidence to believe he knows what he's talking about... And yes it cheapens her death. Her character became an icon because she became a martyr by being the only person in the Buffyverse to ever have their soul destroyed. Take that back, and she's just another random death. How is that doing justice to the iconic figure she turned herself into? Her character is only an icon because of the way she died? Wow, I disagree with that on so many levels...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 7, 2009 21:11:59 GMT -5
Wow, if even Joss wouldn't be able to change your opinion on this, there's really no point debating then! But we'll all agree that you are not talking about what you "believe to be true" but about what "you want to be true". All you do is try to persuade (kid?) yourself that Fred's soul "has to be somewhere". How can you declare with such certainty that no human soul can be extinguished in the Buffyverse when we don't even know for sure that the concept of "soul" exists in our own universe. Anything's possible in the Buffyverse. And yes it cheapens her death. Her character became an icon because she became a martyr by being the only person in the Buffyverse to ever have their soul destroyed. Take that back, and she's just another random death. How is that doing justice to the iconic figure she turned herself into? I disagree with every single thing you said, but frankly, I'm not going to debate it. I have two choices here: 1. I can believe in the atrocity that Fred's soul was destroyed. My next course of action would be to take all 5 of my Angel season sets, put them in a plastic bag, take them downstairs, and throw them in the dumpster. 2. Or I can take the "hope loophole" that Brian gave us and choose to believe that she is happy in an afterlife somewhere. I choose option 2 because, aside from this one point, I love "Angel." Lorne and I think she's in heaven. That fountain of truth and reliability, Dr. Sparrow, says she's not. You can disagree with me all you like. Frankly, I don't care. My mind is made up on this issue. I posted to register my vote, not to debate.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jul 7, 2009 21:19:57 GMT -5
But again, what are the doc's qualifications for being so certain of that that it wasn't worth double-checking? Like I said, was he even one of Illyria's followers, like Knox? Is that why he helped get the sarcophogus released? Or was he just in a position to get them what they needed, and they approached him and offered a ton of $$ (or maybe a top position in Illyria's Army of Doom) to help them out? That was never made clear, so even if he thinks he's telling the truth, I don't have enough evidence to believe he knows what he's talking about... He was just Exposition Man in the story, a one-dimensional plot device. He's a "doctor" of the supernatural so that makes him semi-reliable in the sense that he'd be qualified to understand these things. He's not some random idiot like Harmony. His agenda is never revealed, but there's no implication that he's lying in the text, so why would the audience question him? Fans only doubt him because they want to, not because there's indication that they should. Lorne and I think she's in heaven. That fountain of truth and reliability, Dr. Sparrow, says she's not. Lorne was Fred's friend and is clearly biased. He wants her to be in heaven, as do you. He is no more a "fountain of truth and reliability" than Dr. Sparrow. If anything, Sparrow is more reliable because he couldn't give a shit about Fred. I refer back to my quote about the good guys being bigger liars than the bad guys.
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