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Post by wenxina on Jul 8, 2009 7:02:45 GMT -5
I do not regard this as sadistic, but rather it is a cathartic exercise. And hey, isn't that the point of drama and fiction in general?
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Jul 8, 2009 7:11:20 GMT -5
Precisely! ;D
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 8, 2009 7:18:55 GMT -5
I'm with Mathieu on this one. I am one to get deeply emotionally involved in fictional pieces, as are, I would suspect, most poeple on this board. I feel great pleasure when good things happen to characters I love and great sorrow when bad things happen. However, I appreciate being able to feel both of these emotions. It is what draws me to shows of such emotional depth as Buffy and Angel. Fred's soul being destroyed stands as one of the more heart-breaking events in either series. This gives it the ability to push our emotional response further in one direction that other events. The awesome thing about fiction is that your response carries no real consequences regarding your own position in life and with those around you, so it provides an extremely healthy way of exploring and learning to understand feelings that we would normally only feel during times of extreme stress. From this point of view, I am willing to see characters I love put through hell because it stimulates me emotionally in unfamilar ways. I do not regard this as sadistic, but rather it is a cathartic exercise. Karma for you for beautifully explaining what I wanted to say, but in a way I would have never been able to express myself.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 8, 2009 7:24:23 GMT -5
I don't find cruelty cathartic.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 8, 2009 8:14:44 GMT -5
I don't find cruelty cathartic. "Cruelty" isn't supposed to be the cathartic part; "cruelty" is what you personally feel about the treatment of a character. The same can be said about Ophelia in Hamlet. The way Shakespeare treats her is cruel, making it so that Hamlet spurns her, and then her suicide after, which technically means that she can't even be given a proper burial. You, the audience are supposed to go through this, and feel for her. The tragedy, the sadness, the happiness, etc... drama is supposed to produce all those emotions in its audience. It's supposed to be an emotional experience. The very fact that you feel so strongly about this "cruel" moment means that it has done its job.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 8, 2009 8:35:11 GMT -5
The very fact that you feel so strongly about this "cruel" moment means that it has done its job. It triggered emotions I don't ever want to experience, in real life or in fiction. But, I choose the "her soul was not destroyed" option, which is perfectly justifiable within the bounds of what's been presented. Others may believe what they want. They won't convince me. This is the closest that Joss ever came to permanently losing me as a fan. I hope never to be in that position again.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 8, 2009 8:52:00 GMT -5
This is the closest that Joss ever came to permanently losing me as a fan. I hope never to be in that position again. For every fan he "almost" lost on this one, he gained ten new fans. I always felt like Ats was kind of dull compared to Buffy, but Fred's death kinda changed my perspective on the show. I felt like they went even further than Buffy on the subject of death.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 8, 2009 9:01:16 GMT -5
For every fan he "almost" lost on this one, he gained ten new fans. I don't believe that for a single moment. But I'm not going to discuss it any further. I've recorded my vote on this poll and given my reasons. Looking for something pleasant to talk about now.
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Jul 8, 2009 9:07:38 GMT -5
The very fact that you feel so strongly about this "cruel" moment means that it has done its job. It triggered emotions I don't ever want to experience, in real life or in fiction. But, I choose the "her soul was not destroyed" option, which is perfectly justifiable within the bounds of what's been presented. Others may believe what they want. They won't convince me. This is the closest that Joss ever came to permanently losing me as a fan. I hope never to be in that position again. That's fair enough. People naturally have different dispositions to the range of emotions that fiction can elicit. Some people won't watch gory films because they are squeamish, others won't watch thrillers because they don't like the tension and stress (I had to stop watching the first season of Prison Break while in the middle of my finals at uni because I was under enough stress already without dealing with some presented to me fictionally). I personally enjoy being totally darked out by fiction simply because it is novel and ultimately harmless to me. To each their own.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jul 8, 2009 17:41:25 GMT -5
For every fan he "almost" lost on this one, he gained ten new fans. First, based on the limited sampling provided by this poll, I don't think the numbers back you up on that--it's 15 to 10 right now. So it'd be more accurate to say that for every 2 fans lost, he would've gained 3. Second, I don't think he really gained any new fans by it. There were many people out there who'd never watched "Angel" before, but then found out that Joss had killed off a character and claimed her soul was destroyed, and that got them to say, "Wow, that sounds cool!" and tune in? Third, Emmie made a great point that the first time around, Fred's death is a huge tear-jerker just during "A Hole in the World". The soul thing didn't even come up until the next ep, so it wasn't necessary to make her death heartbreakingly memorable. AHItW did that in spades... And fourth, Mathieu, even tho you didn't say anything, I apologize for the use of the world "ridiculous" in my last post. But Jackson doesn't belong in the company of those other 3 (Well, JFK, at least), and he was an icon before his death, and not in a good way. He was an iconic wacko. His death didn't add anything to that.
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Post by kaleidoscope on Jul 9, 2009 3:05:52 GMT -5
I disagree slightly here and it's why I choose to believe Fred's soul still exists. There's a huge difference between being dead-gone and soul-destroyed gone. Destroying Fred's soul (if that is what happened) is arguably the most heinous act in the entire 'verse to happen to a good character. For every other character, there is the hope of an afterlife. To deny Fred the bliss and feeling of completion that Buffy experienced in heaven? I don't understand why anyone would want that. To have Fred be completely and utterly destroyed. I don't see how her soul being in the afterlife would cheapen her death. This is my stance on this issue as well. The destruction of Fred's soul and the concept that a soul could be destroyed so summarily was a step too far for me, even though I know we're talking about a fictional, character. At least AtF gave some hope in this respect, although I would have preferred something more definate.
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Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Randi Giles on Jul 11, 2009 12:34:44 GMT -5
Honestly I can't figure out the whole Illyria/Fred thing. On the show all that there was suppose to be left was a shell, but even then she was morphing into Fred like when her parents came. This is somewhat similar to what she's doing in the comic when she saw Wes. It was something familiar to her or something she care for. Another example would be when Wes died also. Maybe Angel, Wes and the others had it wrong the first time maybe there has been some Fred left all along. I don't know.
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Post by kaleidoscope on Jul 11, 2009 15:34:40 GMT -5
Honestly I can't figure out the whole Illyria/Fred thing. On the show all that there was suppose to be left was a shell, but even then she was morphing into Fred like when her parents came. This is somewhat similar to what she's doing in the comic when she saw Wes. It was something familiar to her or something she care for. Another example would be when Wes died also. Maybe Angel, Wes and the others had it wrong the first time maybe there has been some Fred left all along. I don't know. Fragments of Fred's memories remained when Illyria invaded her body. I think that Joss intended for some of Illyira's story arc to be an exploration of how much memories make us the people that we are - which is also interesting because it could also be possibly applied to Angel, Spike, Gunn and how their human memories influenced them as Vampires.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 11, 2009 16:38:29 GMT -5
Honestly I can't figure out the whole Illyria/Fred thing. On the show all that there was suppose to be left was a shell, but even then she was morphing into Fred like when her parents came. This is somewhat similar to what she's doing in the comic when she saw Wes. It was something familiar to her or something she care for. Another example would be when Wes died also. Maybe Angel, Wes and the others had it wrong the first time maybe there has been some Fred left all along. I don't know. Fragments of Fred's memories remained when Illyria invaded her body. I think that Joss intended for some of Illyira's story arc to be an exploration of how much memories make us the people that we are - which is also interesting because it could also be possibly applied to Angel, Spike, Gunn and how their human memories influenced them as Vampires. I'd argue we still got some of that with After the Fall And now Joss has a whole show (Dollhouse) to explore the concept. Fred is not forgotten.
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Post by lightandmagic on Jul 11, 2009 17:09:49 GMT -5
I'm definitely in the her soul was not destroyed group.
It mostly comes down to, as the poll says, give me hope.
I'm alright with killing her off, death has to happen in stories, and her death is by far the most tragic that Whedon has ever written and in some ways I am glad that he did it as he created an absolutely phenomenal episode of television.
Then next episode they reveal her soul has been destroyed. We've already felt the impact of the tragedy, really, this after thought just added insult to injury.
For all the amazing things Fred has done, and then to just treat her so disrespectfully (sounds weird I know) just seems way to sadistic and cruel.
So I choose to believe the doctor was lying. Mostly because Fred deserves better.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
Posts: 210
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Post by Marcos on Jul 21, 2009 21:04:25 GMT -5
I'm kinda confused here... Forgive me if this is my memory's fault, but has it been said anywhere that Fred's soul wasn't destroyed? That Knox was lying?? Or is it just a "what if" discussion??
Fred was, to me, one of the three most beloved fictional people ever (the other two being Buffy and Willow), and I still cry like a baby when I see a Hole in the World and the final scene of Shells. But I'm with the idea that her soul being destroyed makes it much more painful. It's not only the grief of the end of life. It's the end of existence. In the Buffyverse, there is a difference.
I want her back with all my heart, but my brain says that the only reason I love Whedonverse so much is because it's so real. And it's that real because it's painful.
Besides, I believe that Fred still lives in Illyria. I mean, her soul is not all that matters. Her brain, memories, cells, are also her. So, her body lives, so does she. It's really disturbing when Illyra "becomes" Fred, but it also warms my little broken heart. lol
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