Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,786
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Post by Joe on Mar 20, 2009 5:33:50 GMT -5
The message from Cordelia is... One note about the issue though... you know the Cordelia thing is going to be a total let down right? It's either going to be the Dragon or some groan worthy, half assed attempt at keeping our interest to buy through the arc. I don't think it will be the Dragon...but I just hope they don't 'F' it up... I don't want 'After the fall' to be the last of Cordy but if it was it was a hell of a good way to end on... (But hey... if no one like, .. then No Canon For You!..lol) I'm ok with 'After the Fall' being the last of Cordy. Sorry Thorn. Maybe she can pop up at the very end of the series. If she's in this arc too, then she's already been in the series too much. They better not have her be in every arc helping Angel in a different way every time
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Mar 20, 2009 12:57:40 GMT -5
Okay, not to be rude or anything but "Aftermath" is failing. I am just not feeling it this time around. Unlike others the art is not what is bothering me at all, it is the writing. I am not bashing Armstrong in anyway, it's just she doesn't have a feel for the Angelverse. Dez is awesome I really would like to see more of her after this arc is over. I do however hate Kate, if you can even call her that. I really think that Nina would have been a better choice to help Angel. I will keep reading Aftermath because I consider it Canon and I see this as just a bump in the story like the end of season 4 of Angel.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 20, 2009 13:17:21 GMT -5
Dez is awesome I really would like to see more of her after this arc is over. I'd like to see her in her own book, not necessarily connected to Angel. I think IDW should buy the license rights for Kelley Armstrong's books. I will keep reading Aftermath because I consider it Canon and I see this as just a bump in the story like the end of season 4 of Angel. Why do you consider it canon? I ask this not just of you, but of everybody else who says it is. Joss has nothing at all to do with this story after issue #17, so I'm not sure I understand how it could be considered canon.
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joony
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 50
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Post by joony on Mar 20, 2009 13:46:06 GMT -5
Dez is awesome I really would like to see more of her after this arc is over. I'd like to see her in her own book, not necessarily connected to Angel. I think IDW should buy the license rights for Kelley Armstrong's books. I will keep reading Aftermath because I consider it Canon and I see this as just a bump in the story like the end of season 4 of Angel. Why do you consider it canon? I ask this not just of you, but of everybody else who says it is. Joss has nothing at all to do with this story after issue #17, so I'm not sure I understand how it could be considered canon. Because it follows on from a line Joss approved with IDW. Are we to think Joss was naive, and say he didn't consider this might become an on-going? Buffy Season 8 was selling very well, which allowed him to set about making After The Fall. Are we supposed to think that he never thought about Angel being just as popular and being expanded? That is not to say I don't have issues with Aftermath (pun not intended), but I accept it as canon for three reasons; 1. Joss didn't even have the time to write After The Fall, it's unlikely he's going to be able to provide the fans with any other kind of continuation (especially with actors who've moved on). So why should I ignore a story arc that continues one of my favourite T.V. Shows/comics? Should i discount Season 2 because he didn't write any episodes there? I know he was overseeing it, but we have to accept he's a busy man now, the Buffyverse isn't his priority anymore. 2. Brian is going to be coming back soon, we are all aware of how well he can write for this universe. We are also aware he's continuing some of his AtF story threads. He even said something like "If AtF is even collected into one volume I hope this is included in the end" (i forget which issue he made reference to). Are we to dismiss this as canon just because it doesn't have Joss seal of approval even though its coming from a writer who does? OR are we going to be saying "Issues 23-25 are canon but Aftermath isn't because it sucks". We can't pick and choose canon, I think the episode "She" sucks. That doesnt mean I ignore it. 3. This point isn't as big as the others. We have to remember Joss is just as human as anyother writer. He doesn't always work on rip roaring episodes...how many people talk about "Conviciton" or "Untouched" (yes i know he only directed that one)? Those two episodes are fine, but they don't rank anywhere near my top twenty just because his name is on them. Wow....big post....sorry for going on...an saying "are we" alot. x
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 20, 2009 13:57:48 GMT -5
Everyone, just a reminder that we have a topic where canon can be discussed HERE. It's fine if people want to mention what they think the canonical status of Aftermath is in their posts, but I hate it when an entire topic turns into a canon debate, especially when there are no right or wrong answers on the subject. It takes away from issue discussion.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 20, 2009 14:01:25 GMT -5
I think we have very different definitions of the word "canon."
The rule of thumb: No involvement from Joss = not canon.
He's just not going to let other people determine the official development of his most important characters without any input from him. He'd have to be crazy to do so.
Fandom debates get mighty hairy when we have hundreds of people all with their own ideas of what reality (ie canon) is in the Buffyverse.
People are free to enjoy the stories as they please, but if I ever see somebody make a post saying "Joss was wrong to have Angel do/say this, because it contradicts what he did/said in Aftermath," then I'm sticking my foot right through the Internet and kicking that person in the shins.
Edit: Sorry, posted this before I saw the post above.
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Mar 20, 2009 14:05:18 GMT -5
I'd like to see her in her own book, not necessarily connected to Angel. I think IDW should buy the license rights for Kelley Armstrong's books. Why do you consider it canon? I ask this not just of you, but of everybody else who says it is. Joss has nothing at all to do with this story after issue #17, so I'm not sure I understand how it could be considered canon. Because it follows on from a line Joss approved with IDW. Are we to think Joss was naive, and say he didn't consider this might become an on-going? Buffy Season 8 was selling very well, which allowed him to set about making After The Fall. Are we supposed to think that he never thought about Angel being just as popular and being expanded? That is not to say I don't have issues with Aftermath (pun not intended), but I accept it as canon for three reasons; 1. Joss didn't even have the time to write After The Fall, it's unlikely he's going to be able to provide the fans with any other kind of continuation (especially with actors who've moved on). So why should I ignore a story arc that continues one of my favourite T.V. Shows/comics? Should i discount Season 2 because he didn't write any episodes there? I know he was overseeing it, but we have to accept he's a busy man now, the Buffyverse isn't his priority anymore. 2. Brian is going to be coming back soon, we are all aware of how well he can write for this universe. We are also aware he's continuing some of his AtF story threads. He even said something like "If AtF is even collected into one volume I hope this is included in the end" (i forget which issue he made reference to). Are we to dismiss this as canon just because it doesn't have Joss seal of approval even though its coming from a writer who does? OR are we going to be saying "Issues 23-25 are canon but Aftermath isn't because it sucks". We can't pick and choose canon, I think the episode "She" sucks. That doesnt mean I ignore it. 3. This point isn't as big as the others. We have to remember Joss is just as human as anyother writer. He doesn't always work on rip roaring episodes...how many people talk about "Conviciton" or "Untouched" (yes i know he only directed that one)? Those two episodes are fine, but they don't rank anywhere near my top twenty just because his name is on them. Wow....big post....sorry for going on...an saying "are we" alot. x The canon issue really grinds my gears. There's a whole other thread about canon in the Angelverse, but I can't resist saying this one more time: It is not canon if Joss does not declare it canon. It is his world and his rules. Therefore, "Aftermath" is not canon. Also, canon does not = good necessarily. "Blood and Trenches" is turning out nicely, but it's not canon. "Spike vs. Dracula" was also a good read, but again, not canon. That's my 2 cents.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 20, 2009 17:25:54 GMT -5
I don't think it will be the Dragon...but I just hope they don't 'F' it up... I don't want 'After the fall' to be the last of Cordy but if it was it was a hell of a good way to end on... (But hey... if no one like, .. then No Canon For You!..lol) I'm ok with 'After the Fall' being the last of Cordy. Sorry Thorn. Maybe she can pop up at the very end of the series. If she's in this arc too, then she's already been in the series too much. They better not have her be in every arc helping Angel in a different way every time Ha... I would not hate that ...
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Mar 20, 2009 18:01:05 GMT -5
The canon issue really grinds my gears. There's a whole other thread about canon in the Angelverse, but I can't resist saying this one more time: It is not canon if Joss does not declare it canon. It is his world and his rules. Therefore, "Aftermath" is not canon. Also, canon does not = good necessarily. "Blood and Trenches" is turning out nicely, but it's not canon. "Spike vs. Dracula" was also a good read, but again, not canon. That's my 2 cents. I basically agree, although Spike: After The Fall doesn't have Joss's name on it. So would you consider that non-canon yourself?
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 20, 2009 21:21:14 GMT -5
I like to consider Spike vs Dracula canon, even though it's not. I can't say it is, but I like to. It's something to fall back on with Spike's history in fanfiction. And as for S:ATF, I consider that canon Now, as for Aftermath, is it even worth buying? Cuz I'm just wondering if I should continue getting it
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Mar 21, 2009 0:30:21 GMT -5
Everyone, just a reminder that we have a topic where canon can be discussed HERE. It's fine if people want to mention what they think the canonical status of Aftermath is in their posts, but I hate it when an entire topic turns into a canon debate, especially when there are no right or wrong answers on the subject. It takes away from issue discussion. This. I mean, if the thread is going off topic, let's at least keep it interesting. For example, we can talk about how insane it is that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrCGpUKhadU) is actually a movie that people wrote, shot, and put money into. Man, I thought the war was a travesty.
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Nina
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 141
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Post by Nina on Mar 21, 2009 7:03:21 GMT -5
I'm sorry for the offtopic-ness but I can't help myself;
Personally I kind of let the canon issue go, if the Angel comics stay on a certain quality level and it doesn't create big problems with the BtVS comics or the tv series, I will read them and kind of consider them true because it's all we have. Angel is by far my favourite show and character, and I want to hear how it goes with him ...
That's why I'm disappointed in Joss and how unprofessional he dealed with the Angel story. He kicks open a closed (and amazing) ending to leave it behind without a new closed ending. I (and with me many) spend a lot of money on Angel's story and personally I think that he owes us at least a good finished story. It's not like he was forced to leave it behind, he choose to stop with it. Where NFA left no questions, ATF leaves lots of questions (what are they going to do? will Gunn die? Shanshu? Big Apocalypse? W&H? How will life go now everybody knows about magic and demons? etc.) No way that all those answers will be answered in BtVS.
So yes, when there are writers who give me a decent story that follows up ATF, I'll read that. I blame Joss for leaving the ship and not Kelley for not writing the greatest arc in history. She is alone and does this for the first time. At least she tries to give us something. That said, Aftermath won't be an arc that I will love with passion (although the art is maybe a bigger problem that the writing) but I don't understand the big hate for it either. We survived episodes like 'Beer Bad', 'Teachers Pet', 'She', 'The Girl in Question', 'I Robot, You Jane' etc. Both tv shows and both comic-series had some bad episodes/arcs/issues and I don't think that Aftermath is even that bad. At least it doesn't destroy characters like some episodes did and it doesn't contradict other stories. So nope, not the greatest arc but I saw worse in the 'verse.
That said, it's just my opinion.
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Fireball
Common Vampire
Im fire, and I will burn you![Mo0:27]
Posts: 53
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Post by Fireball on Mar 21, 2009 10:46:32 GMT -5
Another meh issue. Really dont like the artist in these, the characters look nothing like the characters they are supposed to be. I wish Kate wouldn't wear that stupid police outfit all the time, its just not Kate. I wish Nina wasn't just dropped also, why not use her insted of Kate? I dont get that.
Hopefully it picks up soon, its just kinda poor at the moment.
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BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Illyria's Qwa'ha Xahn
~ Listening To Fear ~[Mo0:25]
Posts: 2,958
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Mar 21, 2009 14:30:12 GMT -5
Crap! Dez is white, I was really hoping she would be black. I really do like her character though. Connor needs to stop trippin' about Gwen's actions in hell. She didn't even do it (since time was reversed)! Great, Brian made Connor a likable character only for Kelley to turn him back into that little whining girl that he used to be. So um... those two city council or whatever people are a little odd. I heard theories that they are the new Oracles. They seem pretty eager to give Angel what they need which is something the old Oracles would have never done. Is that council dude black or white? I can't tell the difference. That's it for now. I'll be back later. I don't get why everyone (civilians) is still in LA. Seriously, they just came back from a hell dimension where they find out that demons do in fact exist and slaughter them like pigs and everyone acts like its no big deal. Dez is dead sexy when she's in her human form but wearing her feline eyes. lmao. I know, I'm weird. That's it for now. Peace.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Mar 21, 2009 17:12:22 GMT -5
While I understand and respect Wyndam's request that canonicity should be discussed in the canon thread, the fact that it keeps getting brought up shows that it is an relevant issue and affects people's enjoyment of the book. I'm sorry for the offtopic-ness but I can't help myself; Personally I kind of let the canon issue go, if the Angel comics stay on a certain quality level and it doesn't create big problems with the BtVS comics or the tv series, I will read them and kind of consider them true because it's all we have. Angel is by far my favourite show and character, and I want to hear how it goes with him ... That's why I'm disappointed in Joss and how unprofessional he dealed with the Angel story. He kicks open a closed (and amazing) ending to leave it behind without a new closed ending. I (and with me many) spend a lot of money on Angel's story and personally I think that he owes us at least a good finished story. It's not like he was forced to leave it behind, he choose to stop with it. Where NFA left no questions, ATF leaves lots of questions (what are they going to do? will Gunn die? Shanshu? Big Apocalypse? W&H? How will life go now everybody knows about magic and demons? etc.) No way that all those answers will be answered in BtVS. So yes, when there are writers who give me a decent story that follows up ATF, I'll read that. I blame Joss for leaving the ship and not Kelley for not writing the greatest arc in history. She is alone and does this for the first time. At least she tries to give us something. That said, Aftermath won't be an arc that I will love with passion (although the art is maybe a bigger problem that the writing) but I don't understand the big hate for it either. We survived episodes like 'Beer Bad', 'Teachers Pet', 'She', 'The Girl in Question', 'I Robot, You Jane' etc. Both tv shows and both comic-series had some bad episodes/arcs/issues and I don't think that Aftermath is even that bad. At least it doesn't destroy characters like some episodes did and it doesn't contradict other stories. So nope, not the greatest arc but I saw worse in the 'verse. That said, it's just my opinion. After the Fall left more questions than "Not Fade Away"? What series have you been following? With "NFA", we had no idea if the characters were even going to survive, let alone what their future held. It was far from a "closed ending". AtF provided much more answers about what happened to the characters and what they were going to do. For the record, I think "NFA" was a more powerful finale, but AtF was still worthwhile story with a fitting ending in it's own right. I'm quite happy to look at AtF #17 as the final canonical Angel story, and consider it so. The way I understand it, Joss did AtF to let loose some of the stories he had planned for Angel season six and maybe the Spike movie. He was too busy to write the story personally, and so entrusted it to Lynch because he wanted fans to know "what happened next". AtF was just supposed to be a limited series, an epilogue to the show. It was IDW who decided to make it an ongoing. Aftermath is not comparable to those episodes you mentioned because those were directly approved by Joss Whedon, part of a series that he was executive producer on. Aftermath is just IDW continuing a series that Joss is no longer involved in. It's not part of the official story, no matter what numbering IDW like to slap on it. (Unless, of course, Joss decides to declare it canon as he did with The Origin). Btw, not really relevant, but I totally resent you including "The Girl in Question" in a list of bad episodes. That episode is brilliant.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Mar 21, 2009 19:51:48 GMT -5
Crap! Dez is white, I was really hoping she would be black. Isn't she? From her coloring, face, hair, and... pretty much her entire appearance, I gathered that she was half black.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 21, 2009 20:14:20 GMT -5
I hope she is.. it makes sense that she’s at least half black, if she is going to be a shifting Tiger but then again is that type of Tiger native to Asia?...
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Mar 21, 2009 20:21:51 GMT -5
We're talking about a comic where Angel looks Chinese, God knows what ethnicity Dez is supposed to be...
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 21, 2009 23:26:40 GMT -5
LMAO... that's what I thought about Angel when I first got 18# ...
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Mar 22, 2009 0:03:39 GMT -5
i have some problems with ehis issue... was the worse one so far. hated the terminangel... hate kate hate connor hate gwen... the art at the begging at the AtF was pissing me off... but now??? god! please take this guy/girl off the story? averege so far...
different from most of you, i would like to see cordy back! why? cause shes just like xander... shes the humanity of angel. like xander is to buffy. she died i get that... and that was some major stuff... but i dont think that bringing her back will change that or the effet that her death cause on the time... instead i would be happy... cause since her death i'm still sad, like i have a hole inside me(regards the angelverse) killing off wesley and fred is another issue for me. they have a lot to put on... but they just dead... i that kills me. i really hope that they bring them back(cordy and wesley, cause illirya and wesley works very very fine)... i dont know if it is because i know that joss was planning to bring fred back on season 6, but i still wanna see the illirya/fred stuff again... now, back to the issue thing... a hole issue without spike and/or illirya??? really didnt work... terrible way to start this "new season"...
grade: C-
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