Has Willow replaced Buffy as the key player?

[Mathieu]

Oh yeah! Willow can challenge Buffy to a fight and kick her ass anytime she wants. I mean hello!! The floating? The teleporting? The spells she can cast? Her powers are just ridiculous!!

What does Buffy have going for her?? Strength.

Some of you seem to overlook that Buffy never won a fight all by herself.

Buffy died in season 1 and Xander brought her back to life.

Willow gave Angel his soul back in Season 2 putting an end to the fight.

She had army of high school students fighting with her in Season 3.

She had Xander, Giles and Willow work a powerful spell for her in Season 4 to defeat Adam.

She died in Season 5.

Giles had to intervene in Season 6 to save Willow (and Xander finished the work).

And she had to empower a whole new army of Slayers in Seven 7 to win the final battle.

Buffy powerful? Not that much. Buffy smart? Yes, because she knows how to surround herself with friends that can help her.

[wenxina]

Buffy has always been resourceful. That's been her strength throughout her tenure as a Slayer. As for never winning a battle by herself: False.
Regardless of whether or not Willow cast that spell in S2, Buffy won. She thoroughly wiped the floor with Angelus' ass after saying "Me!" and was about to deal the final killing blow when the spell took. So she won that one pretty much by herself.

[stakey]

yeh I agree with xi...Buffy would have decapitated Angelus all on her lonesome. Willows spell only prolonged the suffering.lol.

And in answer to the actual thread question...I havent read everyones posts so Im probably repeating...but I think Willow is way more powerful than Buffy but would never over step her bounds and take command of everyone, pushing Buffy aside.

Mind you, saying that...we all saw what happened in 'Empty Places'.

But I dont think Willow would ever take over unless she was 'elected' to by everyone as Faith was.

[AndrewCrossett]

Buffy's reliance on her friends is one of the central themes of BtVS. She's personally powerful and has come through on occasions when her friends failed her. She's the glue that holds everything together with her strength and resolution and tenacity. Her reliance on friends is the difference between her and previous Slayers. It's why she's survived for ~10 years at it when most Slayers lasted a few months. I'm sure it will be central to her success in the Fraypocalypse at the end of this season.

[fayth]

I believe Willow having her own factions of witches, only shows that she is CAPABLE of being a leader, but really Buffy is the one who always IS the leader. She can hold her own and the lives of thousands in moments of peril. She laughs in the face of angry big baddie apocaylpse issues. Willow has had (still has?) the strength of a Goddess and the vengence of a Baddie- but the lifes she has led into battle fully on her own will (ha) are nearly zero. She commands her team but I think it was Buffy who said- you should have a team of your own, you know???

I'm not making much sense... ek. I just really don't see Willow taking charge of people's lives and becoming to complete focus of any season. (i love all sides and shades of will, please dont get me wrong) She is powerful and could outbattle buffy with her magics. But Buffy has years of guiding and leading behind her- as well as slayer blood which runs wild with that chosen one power.

In the future arcs I think the friendship between Willow and buffy will save them once again, to me, I see Willow currently realizing she has just as much POWER as Buffy, maybe more. Then end result an uprising leading to future Dark Willow??? sadly power alone doesn't make you a grand leader... no?

[Mathieu]

Jul 5, 2009 10:39:40 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Buffy has always been resourceful. That's been her strength throughout her tenure as a Slayer. As for never winning a battle by herself: False.
Regardless of whether or not Willow cast that spell in S2, Buffy won. She thoroughly wiped the floor with Angelus' ass after saying "Me!" and was about to deal the final killing blow when the spell took. So she won that one pretty much by herself.

I beg to differ. You're just assuming she would have won, but we will never know...

That being said...

I feel like you guys are not answering the exact question I was asking, the question being "Do you think Willow has replaced Buffy as the key player?" and you answer the question "Is Willow plotting against Buffy to become the leader of the group?".

I am certain Willow has no intentions to replace Buffy in her leading role, but TECHNICALLY don't you feel like Willow has gained so much power that her own actions are starting to overshadow Buffy's own accomplishments?

[hitnrun017]

Jul 5, 2009 23:13:57 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

Jul 5, 2009 10:39:40 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Buffy has always been resourceful. That's been her strength throughout her tenure as a Slayer. As for never winning a battle by herself: False.
Regardless of whether or not Willow cast that spell in S2, Buffy won. She thoroughly wiped the floor with Angelus' ass after saying "Me!" and was about to deal the final killing blow when the spell took. So she won that one pretty much by herself.

I beg to differ. You're just assuming she would have won, but we will never know...

Nah, I think she definitely had it won. Like Xi said, she was going for the killing blow as soon as he was ensouled. Also, Angelus couldn't block a sword on his knees and weaponless. She beat him.

[vampmogs]

I think it’s safe to say Buffy would have won in that fight. Angelus was down on his knees, his head was cocked downwards after Buffy kicked him in the face and she raised the sword ready for the finale swing. If you look at how Angelus is, it’s clear he’s dazed and out of it after Buffy’s final blow. He’s not even looking at her, he’s groggily staring at the ground. He wasn’t in any state to avoid the sword if Buffy had swung it.

That’s really one of the many tragic things about that scene. As Whistler says, “the faster you kill Angel the easier it’s gonna be on ya.” If Willow’s spell hadn’t went through him at that exact moment, Buffy would have killed Angelus and spared herself a lot of the guilt she had for having to kill Angel.

[BlueJay]

Willow is as powerful as she is right now just because of her magic, whereas Buffy was powerful from the get-go. So take magic away and Buffy's the powerful one again. Also, I think that Buffy is better at making big-picture decisions, which is a quality that a true leader would have.

[Rebecca]

I think in Issue #26 Willow was definitely leading the defenses. All Buffy had put into place was cameras and surveillance equipment Xander was in charge of. Willow did the slayer-wiccas (huh??), the bridge spell, and magical defensive barriers. Their entire defense was on the shoulders of Willow. So yes, her power is beginning to overshadow Buffy's raw power.

Buffy is only leading them, wielding Willow as a weapon herself.

However I don't think this will hold forever. Willow's use and overuse of magicks has caught the attention of Buffy and Giles now, and things are coming to a head.

As to your question in particular, Mathieu, you changed the title of the thread to change in key player-ness, which was more to your point, however your poll questions still allude to "who's in charge, really?"

[Mathieu]

Rebecca, thanks for weighing in! I agree with what you said here.

I'm not sure what you mean though when you say I changed the title of the thread... I don't recall changing the title, like ever... It always was about who the key player is now, both in the thread title and the question. The "who's in charge" idea only appears in the "no" answer (as in "no way dude, Buffy's the one in charge, period!").

But I think the two answers I proposed have confused everybody because it seems like at the end of the day, everybody has answered the question "who is in charge?".

We all know Buffy is in charge. She's just no longer the key player is all.

[Rebecca]

Oh, sorry, I must have remembered that wrong. But yeah, the poll questions are confuzzling

[Mathieu]

Jul 8, 2009 11:43:38 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Oh, sorry, I must have remembered that wrong. But yeah, the poll questions are confuzzling

Ahaha, my fault! I always have to come up with sketchy poll questions!

You'll notice that most of the time people spend more time contesting my choice of poll answers than debating the actual subject of the thread!

[redapple31]

No, I think Buffy will always be a key player. It's like Willow said to Satsu in Buffy season 8 #13. Buffy's The General. They're The Soldiers(And Willow includes herself) and that's never going to change.

[VampSlayer]

She's doing alot, but it's under Buffy's orders. I voted no.

[balesthebloody]

I have to say yes on this one. As soon as I heard that the issue of magic being removed from the world was going to be the main issue of Season 8 I knew that Willow and the Scoobies would be on opposite sides of the playing field! To see how Willow went from using almost no magic in the early parts of Season 7 to her first magical appearance in Season 8 was a shock to me! I feel that Will has matured in her use of magic and that is what makes her a key player in the game now, even more now that the worlds eyes are now open to the magical game!

I feel that Twilight and the government are going to try destroy any kind of magic writing and anything that the Scoobies can use to fight them, so Willow will be like the only "book of magic" around that can be used as a resource, and that to me is why she will be a key player! Not that she will try and take the reins from Buffy on purpose, but that she will fall into that position. That is what I feel like will drive and split the team in two.

With Willow going evil sometime in the future seems like where she is heading at this point, I for one, feel like it will not be her choosing this time. Willow cares about the magics, that is for sure, so I feel like she will do what ever it takes to preserve them for future generations. Even if that means turning on her friends and living forever to make sure they live on!

Sorry if that last part went off topic but I feel like it was a good way sum up this post!

[Mathieu]

Really interesting point you made here balesthebloody! I also think it would be interesting if they made Willow defy Buffy to protect the future of magics, making her opposition justifiable.

I mean is it that good an idea to ban all magic from this world??? That's something that would really upset me if I were Willow. If they make it look like Buffy is rushing into a hasty decision, maybe some of us will even agree with Willow on this! And next thing you know, things will get nasty between the two friens, pushing Willow over the edge again and bam! Dark Willow is back among us. Awesomeness is on the way people!

[balesthebloody]

Jul 16, 2009 22:28:43 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

Really interesting point you made here balesthebloody! I also think it would be interesting if they made Willow defy Buffy to protect the future of magics, making her opposition justifiable.

I mean is it that good an idea to ban all magic from this world??? That's something that would really upset me if I were Willow. If they make it look like Buffy is rushing into a hasty decision, maybe some of us will even agree with Willow on this! And next thing you know, things will get nasty between the two friens, pushing Willow over the edge again and bam! Dark Willow is back among us. Awesomeness is on the way people!

I really think banning magic would have some serious repercussions and I think that will also be a point that Willow can make, if it comes down to her defending not banning magic from this realm.