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Post by wenxina on Jul 16, 2009 16:57:59 GMT -5
Skytte: Alex said that she never wanted to be a Slayer. But she did choose to walk around with a stake handy; i.e. she chose to be strong. Even though she's not part of the Slayer Army, she chose to be equipped for battle. That's the choice. Her breaking down had less to do with self-loathing than crumbling after finding out that she was something really "other" than the boy she liked, as well as being outed to the public. True, she never chose to be a Slayer, but she was a Potential... that Buffy can't change. But she chose to carry a stake.
As for the metaphor/analogy, you and Paul are seeing "Slayer" as two different things. You see it as a "what you are", he sees it as a "who you are". Depending on how you define it, either analogy could work, or be viewed as flawed. But he's not taking it too far at all. In fact, going by the "A Slayer is who you choose to be" argument, it's actually an accurate analogy.
And no, while you're not saying that you're absolutely right, you're saying that depowering 2000 girls to rid one girl of her nightmares is the right course of action. But having already seen the dreams/nightmares/as well as the horrors of the night clearly, do you think that one will be able to shut those out again? Depowering Slayers may be moot by then. Unless you're arguing that the Slayer psyche is entirely removed from that of the girl's. The nightmares are just inherited dreams/experiences. To an outsider, yes, they're nightmares. To a Slayer who has accepted her duty, they're just a routine blast from the past. Might even be something useful in there at times.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jul 16, 2009 17:14:43 GMT -5
I meant that that A)The spell the shadowmen cast had a life on it's own choosing/infecting girls at birth so they later on will be ready to be chosen to be slayer(kinda preparing them) or B)They were girls born with special abilities to fight(kinda like some people are good at math or music) and therefor good choices for slayerhood or C)They had the slayer power dormant. The two first options allow the council to find the potentials even tough they weren't born to be slayers. Okay, first of all, that's taking the metaphor too far. Children can't be compared to superpowers, because hallo, they're living people. Also, I doubt the love a slayer has for her newfound strength is anywhere near as strong as the love a mother has for her children. This is what I meant; Instead of having the ability to choose when you want to get pregnant or keep that power dormant(we now assume I'm wrong about the slayer-power being something alien) someone chooses for you, and you get knocked up. I think you should have a choice to activate the power within you, just as you have the right to never bear children, even tough that's also a power you have. I know what Buffy did was a act of desperation(I really hope she would have thought it over more is she had time) but it's doesn't make it a good choice for everyone. They might not be able to choose entirely who they are. I'm not saying Buffy changed personality when becoming the slayer, but before she was chosen, she wasn't disturbed by weird nightmares, or felt the need to hunt, did she? Maybe. I'm not saying that absolutely I'm right, I'm saying I might be right when I say there might be girls out there who feel like freaks and are afraid of the new power in them. Maybe all they need is counselling, but in case there's many out there, going crazy because they were chosen, and therapy and individual de-powering doesn't work, a de-powering for all slayers might be needed. If it can be done without serious sideeffects. I think the Slayer power is already dormant in the Potentials. In "Chosen", Willow doesn't channel the Shadow demon from "Get it Done" into the Potentials, she just unlocks what's already there. That's how I see it anyway, it's open to interpretation. Okay, say the children metaphor is going too far, I think the sterilisation analogy still stands. Why should all women have their natural ability robbed because a few don't wish to use it?
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balesthebloody
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Post by balesthebloody on Jul 16, 2009 19:37:13 GMT -5
I just feel like there are too many of them for their own good. I know I got a little off topic there but the point is some of these girls need to be power downed. Not only for the girls sake but for good public rep too. General Voll's statement is what the public believes right now; that Slayers are some militant group of fascists. And your statements in the quote above also run counter to the whole issue of choice, and it's pretty much a throwback to the whole Watcher's Council. It becomes an issue of control again. I was saying only power down the girls that didn't want the power or the ones who abuse it. How does that really counter their choice? I feel like making them keep the power would be going against their choice of free will. Like Skytte said, how are Buffy and Willow any different than the Shadow Men? They have punched the card of life for a lot of these girls without asking. I fear Buffy has become just what she always run away from with The Watcher's Council. Forcing girls into a life full of pain and loss.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 16, 2009 20:37:30 GMT -5
It runs counter to the issue of "choice" because you're saying that an external body can now make the executive decision to power down girls who either don't want the power, or abuse it. That's something that hasn't been considered yet, despite the fact that Simone and Co. are running about. The reason for this is that being strong is a right, and if one abuses it, one shall be dealt with accordingly. Rehabilitation has always been a Buffyverse staple, versus the quick fix of just killing someone off, or in this case, just depowering girls. And where do you draw the line then? Displease Buffy and she'll depower you?
How are Buffy and Willow different? They're not forcing girls who don't want to use their power to do anything. As Paul pointed out, only ~500 girls out of ~1800 are currently working with Buffy. That's slightly more that 25% of the Slayer population... quite a minority I might point out.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jul 16, 2009 20:45:37 GMT -5
Like Skytte said, how are Buffy and Willow any different than the Shadow Men? They have punched the card of life for a lot of these girls without asking. I fear Buffy has become just what she always run away from with The Watcher's Council. Forcing girls into a life full of pain and loss. Except the Watchers' Council forced the Slayers to do their bidding and follow orders. The Scoobies aren't doing that; they're giving them the option to join Buffy's army but they aren't forcing them. As I said before, of the 1800 Slayers, only 500 are members of the Slayer organisation. Willow and Buffy just gave these girls power, what they do with that power is entirely up to them.
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
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Post by balesthebloody on Jul 17, 2009 10:17:05 GMT -5
It runs counter to the issue of "choice" because you're saying that an external body can now make the executive decision to power down girls who either don't want the power, or abuse it. That's something that hasn't been considered yet, despite the fact that Simone and Co. are running about. The reason for this is that being strong is a right, and if one abuses it, one shall be dealt with accordingly. Rehabilitation has always been a Buffyverse staple, versus the quick fix of just killing someone off, or in this case, just depowering girls. And where do you draw the line then? Displease Buffy and she'll depower you? How are Buffy and Willow different? They're not forcing girls who don't want to use their power to do anything. As Paul pointed out, only ~500 girls out of ~1800 are currently working with Buffy. That's slightly more that 25% of the Slayer population... quite a minority I might point out. Now I see what you are saying when it comes to the ones who abuse the power. We are on the same page now there, but I still feel like the girls who don't want he power should, in some way, be able to give it up and walk away. I hadn't seen only the 500 out of 1800 girls were working for Buffy. Plus it has been a while since I have read "The Long Way Home". Off topic, I love debating!
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 19, 2009 23:31:55 GMT -5
Willow and Buffy just gave these girls power, what they do with that power is entirely up to them. Hence the huge threat they have become.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 20, 2009 7:26:01 GMT -5
Willow and Buffy just gave these girls power, what they do with that power is entirely up to them. Hence the huge threat they have become. Which is as it should be. Heroes should be a huge threat. Apart from Simone's gang (who I'm pretty sure are working for Twilight), I haven't seen any evidence they're a threat to anyone but the bad guys.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 20, 2009 8:03:01 GMT -5
Skytte: Alex said that she never wanted to be a Slayer. But she did choose to walk around with a stake handy; i.e. she chose to be strong. Even though she's not part of the Slayer Army, she chose to be equipped for battle. That's the choice. Her breaking down had less to do with self-loathing than crumbling after finding out that she was something really "other" than the boy she liked, as well as being outed to the public. True, she never chose to be a Slayer, but she was a Potential... that Buffy can't change. But she chose to carry a stake. Not that this will ruin your argument, but I think that walking around with a stake in a town where vamps seems to comfortable snacking on (willing)people in public isn't necassarily a way to say "I'm strong", it could be more of a way of saying "I want to live." My point about slayers who are trying to live a normal life and succeding, is that even tough they might not have changed that much and they don't have to fight, and they're doing real well in normal life, they're different know. Maybe different enough for there to be trouble. I really wish we knew more about the slayer's psyche, so we know how much it changes the girls and how it effects their personalities. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, since a few of my worst fears is brain-washing, split personalities and personlity-altering brain cancer. Apart from Simone's gang (who I'm pretty sure are working for Twilight), I haven't seen any evidence they're a threat to anyone but the bad guys. There's Dana and Gigi. Hopefully the rest of the slayers are less... evil/crazy.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 20, 2009 8:51:41 GMT -5
Not that this will ruin your argument, but I think that walking around with a stake in a town where vamps seems to comfortable snacking on (willing)people in public isn't necassarily a way to say "I'm strong", it could be more of a way of saying "I want to live." Missed the point again. The fact that the population at large is all vampire-friendly now (even to the point of offering themselves up to be sucked on, provided the vampires don't kill them - that's what Jay used to do before he got beaten almost to death for refusing) shows that Alex made a choice. To actually see the world for the scary place that it is. That takes strength. She wasn't really in any apparent danger of dying; the vampires are offered blood as long as they don't kill, remember? And therein lies the real choice: What to do with the power that you have? No one can choose what they are, but people can choose what to do with the power they have. It's a more important aspect of free will then trying to change the inevitable (that's just futile). My point about slayers who are trying to live a normal life and succeding, is that even tough they might not have changed that much and they don't have to fight, and they're doing real well in normal life, they're different know. Maybe different enough for there to be trouble. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, since a few of my worst fears is brain-washing, split personalities and personlity-altering brain cancer. Which would be valid had we seen Buffy trying to recruit ALL the girls and brainwash them into taking up her cause. But again, out of the 1800 or so girls, only 500 work with her. And these girls chose to work with her.
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Post by Rebecca on Jul 20, 2009 9:58:35 GMT -5
Reading posts that slayers should have a choice whether to accept their slayer power and join the cause or go back to a normal life, I keep thinking about what it was like before the scythe spell. Before, slayers were called whether they wanted to or not. So far that's the same as the scythe spell. Before, slayers who didn't want to fight, to go back to their normal lives were killed by the council. Yeah, that's right. If their slayer didn't want to fight, she was killed so that the next one could be called. Now, slayers are given the choice whether to fight, arguably more charitable than the past.
Being a slayer has never been a choice, why start now? I agree that if there is a way to individually de-power slayers at their whim should be a choice, but life isn't fair, or easy. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. And I fundamentally disagree that the slayer power should be deactivated for every slayer because many don't want to join the fight.
The idea that only the best were called I think is jaded from watching Buffy, a truly exceptional slayer. Most slayers were killed in action (or by the council) after a very short period after being called. Look at Kendra. Arguably she had exceptional training, even read the Slayer Handbook (where is that btw?), but fell at the hands of Drusilla.
Back to the question at hand, I agree with Andrew that demons and magicks will be banished from this dimension, probably at the hands of Buffy. I have a theory that the slayer power will be banished as well, and all these magickal energies will be siphoned into Willow, who is sent to another dimension. Because Willow has the slayer power within her, no Slayers will be called until Melaka's time, when Willow finds her way back to earth's dimension. At that battle, when the banishment goes down, slayers will be depowered, but will fight on, using their inner strength and knowledge.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 20, 2009 10:08:45 GMT -5
I still don't get what you're getting at when you're talking about that the potentials/slayers choose to be strong, when I'm talking about how humans were transfered to part-demons(or how magical humans were amde more magical, whatever you want to call it).Don't get how it relates. I guess I should have told you that earlier in the coversation. Not that this will ruin your argument, but I think that walking around with a stake in a town where vamps seems to comfortable snacking on (willing)people in public isn't necassarily a way to say "I'm strong", it could be more of a way of saying "I want to live." Missed the point again. The fact that the population at large is all vampire-friendly now (even to the point of offering themselves up to be sucked on, provided the vampires don't kill them - that's what Jay used to do before he got beaten almost to death for refusing) shows that Alex made a choice. To actually see the world for the scary place that it is. That takes strength. She wasn't really in any apparent danger of dying; the vampires are offered blood as long as they don't kill, remember? And therein lies the real choice: What to do with the power that you have? No one can choose what they are, but people can choose what to do with the power they have. It's a more important aspect of free will then trying to change the inevitable (that's just futile). I didn't miss your point, I was just pointing out that Alex carrying around a stake could simply have to do with self-defense, nothing more, nothing less. What if no willing victim was around and a vampire tried to snack on Alex? Maybe she just wanted to be prepared. And about being able to choose who you are and what to do with the power you have? Not sure exactly what you meant about that, since that's the problem I'm having with all of this. The slayers aren't the same people they were before Buffy choose them. They can choose what to do with the power they were given, but point is, who they are is linked to the slayer-essence now. Sorry for repeating myself and stating the obvious, I was just frustrated by the "noone can choose who they are" line. I'm not afraid Buffy will try to force them to fight, I'm afraid that the demon essence in them has changed their personalities. I don't think Buffy will try to alter the girls any more than she has. EDIT- Reading posts that slayers should have a choice whether to accept their slayer power and join the cause or go back to a normal life, I keep thinking about what it was like before the scythe spell. Before, slayers were called whether they wanted to or not. So far that's the same as the scythe spell. Before, slayers who didn't want to fight, to go back to their normal lives were killed by the council. Yeah, that's right. If their slayer didn't want to fight, she was killed so that the next one could be called. Now, slayers are given the choice whether to fight, arguably more charitable than the past. There is a clear difference between how girls were chosen back then and how they are chosen now. Buffy didn't have anyone to blame but the shadow men, and they're dead. Now however, there's lots of girls out there who have the scoobies to blame. It's one thing if a unknown force chooses you, and another if a group of people chooses you and lots of other girls. And just because people were forced to be slayers before, doesn't mean that should continue and multiply, like it did with the schyte-spell. We're suppose to move forwards, democray-style, not go about the same way. But you're right, they don't have to fear the council anymore.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 20, 2009 11:30:00 GMT -5
I didn't miss your point, I was just pointing out that Alex carrying around a stake could simply have to do with self-defense, nothing more, nothing less. What if no willing victim was around and a vampire tried to snack on Alex? Maybe she just wanted to be prepared. That's the point you're missing; the very fact that Alex is going by what she knows of vampires (presumably from the Slayer dreams, probably some from her gut feelings, etc) and not what is being told (that vampires are cuddly buddies) is a choice. The choice to see the world through the eyes of a Slayer, and that she carries a stake, the weapon of choice for dusting vampires is testament to her not wanting to be a victim. In short, she chose to be strong. And about being able to choose who you are and what to do with the power you have? Not sure exactly what you meant about that, since that's the problem I'm having with all of this. The slayers aren't the same people they were before Buffy choose them. They can choose what to do with the power they were given, but point is, who they are is linked to the slayer-essence now. Sorry for repeating myself and stating the obvious, I was just frustrated by the "noone can choose who they are" line. The point is, you didn't choose to be born Swedish, did you? You didn't choose to have the natural eye/hair/skin color you have. Those aren't choices. The Potentials didn't have a choice; they were born Potentials, or at least something selected them very early on as different, and therefore many were taken at an early age and trained to be made ready to be the next Slayer, should they be so (un)lucky. Like it or not, they are different, all deemed at least potentially worthy to be Called. As Rebecca pointed out, the whole being Chosen thing in the past has never really been shown to be a selection of the best. In fact, the girls seem to be called quite at random. Of the three Slayers established in the TV series, the only one I would deem a great Slayer, or even an extraordinary one is Buffy. And therein lies the crux of the argument. Buffy is an extraordinary Slayer because of who she is, aside from the Slayer part. Much of the tension in the earlier seasons was from Buffy trying to separate the part that was her from the Slayer bit. But she could've chosen to alienate her duties; she almost did several times, like when she "quit" in S1. But she always chose to go back. There's the choice that has been given to the other girls. Just like they didn't get to choose to be Potentials, they don't get to choose to be Slayers. But they get to choose if they too will live the life of a Slayer, or just someone ordinary. We're arguing very different things here. I'm arguing that what the Slayers are is a moot battle; they were born different, and are therefore different. Who they were has always in some way been linked to being a Slayer. Blame S7 for the mixed metaphor of awakening the potential within and the rape one, but on a meta level, one can make sense of it. The Slayer power is a birthright, one that was withheld from most girls before, denying them the choice of a higher purpose that they could potentially have. Being the Slayer doesn't make you figuratively strong; it's the choice that you make with it that does. Xander is in no way strong in the literal sense, but his sense of purpose is. Willow was a pushover, but she's strong now. Both blossomed as characters and found their own strength because they made their choice to be strong. Neither are Slayers. I'm not afraid Buffy will try to force them to fight, I'm afraid that the demon essence in them has changed their personalities. I don't think Buffy will try to alter the girls any more than she has. No evidence that becoming a Slayer has changed personalities for the worse. Faith was destructive before. Becoming a Slayer just allowed her destructive personality to come out in a more visible fashion, but one always has to take the literal with the metaphorical in this fandom. Dana was already a damaged child, having been abducted, molested, tortured and raped. Being a Slayer just meant that she started merging the Slayer visions with her memories. True, she became more destructive, but it didn't change her personality. The only time behavior has been shown to be mildly tweaked by anything to do with the Slayer essence is after the merging spell in S4, where early on in S5, Buffy is shown to be restless. But S5 is the season where Buffy becomes more in-tune with her inner Slayer, and reconciling the fact that her character doesn't need to be afraid of the Slayer. The Slayer side is what makes her different, and she fears that. In S7, she finally breaks down and says something to the effect of: "Being the Slayer made me different, but it's my fault I stayed that way". Again, choice. In short, it can change you, but only if you decide to let it be that way.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 20, 2009 12:25:01 GMT -5
I didn't miss your point, I was just pointing out that Alex carrying around a stake could simply have to do with self-defense, nothing more, nothing less. What if no willing victim was around and a vampire tried to snack on Alex? Maybe she just wanted to be prepared. That's the point you're missing; the very fact that Alex is going by what she knows of vampires (presumably from the Slayer dreams, probably some from her gut feelings, etc) and not what is being told (that vampires are cuddly buddies) is a choice. The choice to see the world through the eyes of a Slayer, and that she carries a stake, the weapon of choice for dusting vampires is testament to her not wanting to be a victim. In short, she chose to be strong. Okay. Still don't see what that has to do with the original point. Your statement confused me from the beginning. You make it sound like what Buffy was doing in Chosen was only to spread knowledge, to "be strong" through knowing more about the world, and therefor having a choice to do something about it. I never claimed the potentials had a choice. And your swedish-color metaphor? Just because I grew up in Sweden, and am white, doesn't mean there's a different essence in me than other people, like it's with slayers/potentials and other people. Being turned into a brunette and being turned into a part-demon-magical creature is different. I've never said that being a potential was "wrong". Okay, if it was the shadowmen's spell that made them potentials, I would call it morally iffy, and hope Buffy would look into stopping that spell from "infecting" newborn babies. It's not the potentials being potentials I have a problem with, it's that girls who had been potentils their entire life was suddenly transformed into something else. This part confused me extra much. You made it clear that girls can get a higher purpose without having the slayer within pop up, so why say "Accept your birthright and change the world" when Xander and Willow did fine without it? I'm not complaining about that the girls got a choice to do something good with their powers, but this "birthright" as you call it, could have been dormant in them forever, and they would have been happy. Maybe they would have heard about slayers and wanted to be one. Maybe they would have heard about slayers and been glad it wasn't them. Point is, this birthright, they might not want it, for different reasons. Just like not every woman wants activate their dormant lifegiving power. You're right. We don't know enough about the slayer's personality changes. I really hope that's something Buffy working on finding out more about. But as you say, it seems to change them, and maybe they can't change back. The nightmares, the hunter-instincts, those are facts, they do happen. The nightmares might just scare them and that's it. The hunter-instincts might just make them want to beat people up in occasion. It could be small changes. But it's still a change, one that I bet many girls would like to be without. If those are the only changes, and they're proven to be manageable, that's great. However, if there's girls out there who have changed too much, personlity wise, or who are just afraid they have changed too much, and the knowledge that innocents are being saved by other girls who have been chosen, isn't enough for those girls to lead a normal life and accept they're one of the slayers, without feeling "raped" or brain-washed, something should be done. If it were me, and I was offered superpowers, I'd probably take them even tough there would be nightmares and instincts-changes. I might even be fine with the risk of losing my personality. However, if someone forced the superpowers on me, I would be testy. I would feel filthy. I would think "Well, at least the spell helped kill a lot of demons", but I'd feel used. Hell, I might worry every day of my life that I would turn into a monster. For all we know, when slayers turn fifty, they do turn into monsters, but that is so far a unknown(hidden?) fact, due to the slayers not living very long. I might even kill myself if I was afraid I would turn into a murderer. That if of course a extreme case, and I bet most civilian slayers out there is fine with whatever problem they're suffering, since other slayers are making the world a better place. However, if too many have extreme reactions, I think it would be right to remove the slayer power. And since that's the at least the third time I'm repeating some of my arguments, I'll let the subject go(unless someone wants to discuss vertain parts further). I kinda feel there's no convincing either you or me.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 20, 2009 13:55:31 GMT -5
Your statement confused me from the beginning. You make it sound like what Buffy was doing in Chosen was only to spread knowledge, to "be strong" through knowing more about the world, and therefor having a choice to do something about it. It's really not confusing, because as you said, she didn't offer them a choice of whether or not to be Slayers. The choice was whether or not to be "strong". They would all be Slayers, but whether or not they chose to be strong is something entirely different. The Willow/Xander bit was just an extension of this. You don't need to be a Slayer to be "strong" in the way I'm taking Buffy's speech to mean, but in order to defeat the ubervamp army, they had to become Slayers too. But just because you have Slayer capabilities doesn't make you a Slayer unless you choose to be strong. Just as Peter Parker wouldn't be a superhero if all he did was just use his special powers to just get along with life instead of doing what Spider-Man does. I never claimed the potentials had a choice. I never said you claimed that. I'm just saying that if the Potentials didn't have a choice about being Potentials, then they're already different, and their birthright is to possibly someday inherit the mantle of the Slayer. And your swedish-color metaphor? Just because I grew up in Sweden, and am white, doesn't mean there's a different essence in me than other people, like it's with slayers/potentials and other people. Being turned into a brunette and being turned into a part-demon-magical creature is different. I've never said that being a potential was "wrong". Okay, if it was the shadowmen's spell that made them potentials, I would call it morally iffy, and hope Buffy would look into stopping that spell from "infecting" newborn babies. It's not the potentials being potentials I have a problem with, it's that girls who had been potentils their entire life was suddenly transformed into something else. Never said that there was anything inherently different about being a Scandinavian Caucasian. Just that you didn't get to choose to have whatever features you have, and so neither did the Potentials get to choose to be born Potentials. They just were. Your use of the word "infecting" is telling here though. And I guess I understand where you're coming from, with the whole negative thing with the rape. All I'm saying is that you have to step away from the "rape" imagery to actually see how becoming a Slayer is actually empowering when you change the rules. Rape is the forceful subjugation of one under another. Sineya was raped, because she was literally tied down and had something forced into her. The subsequent Slayers are subjected to the same thing because they can't have the power unless they're deemed worthy, or by random chance by some external power. The Scythe spell essentially changed that because if a girl was born a Potential, she would have the power, not because some external force deemed her worthy or whatnot, but because it was hers to begin with. In other words, removing the power from the original "rapists". This part confused me extra much. You made it clear that girls can get a higher purpose without having the slayer within pop up, so why say "Accept your birthright and change the world" when Xander and Willow did fine without it? Because that's not what I've said at all. I've said that the power of the Slayer is their birthright, what they chose to do with it afterwards is their choice. Their choice to be "strong" or otherwise. In order to win the battle, Buffy needed more fighters. Slayers are some of the strongest fighters out there, especially trained ones. The girls at the Hellmouth chose to fight; what other choice was there? Maybe a few actually decided not to go to battle. Considering the number of girls we see at the house at random intervals, I'm surprised they all fit in the school bus in the first place. Maybe some chose to sit out the battle. Don't know, don't care. But the girls who were at the battle chose to be strong. The Slayer power came anyway, because that's what happens when you empower all the Potentials. I'm not complaining about that the girls got a choice to do something good with their powers, but this "birthright" as you call it, could have been dormant in them forever, and they would have been happy. Maybe they would have heard about slayers and wanted to be one. Maybe they would have heard about slayers and been glad it wasn't them. Point is, this birthright, they might not want it, for different reasons. Just like not every woman wants activate their dormant lifegiving power. Yes, but your argument lacks the substantive negative aspect of the Slayer power (as in we haven't seen any of what you're proposing could be negatives), and that's why it's unconvincing. You're saying that maybe the girls would have been happier without the powers. Fair point. But you're failing to acknowledge that maybe the girls are thankful to have the connection they have now. The girl in "The Chain" definitely was. Many of the girls shown in the montage in "Chosen" were better off with their power. Or at least they didn't look horrified.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 20, 2009 14:07:05 GMT -5
That cleared it up a little.
I'm not failing to acknowledge that some slayers are thankful. That's the core if my argument, that not all might be thankful they were Chosen. By saying that, I admit that it looks like most slayers are happy with the spell.
Maybe that was too subtext-y.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 20, 2009 14:15:01 GMT -5
Wenxina, I don't really agree with the way you use the term "strong".
You keep saying that the newly-turned slayers have had the choice to be "strong" or not, but put like this, you're not really giving them a choice, are you? I can't imagine anybody saying "I've made the choice to be weak". It sounds almost schoolyard-ish to me. Embrace your slayerness or else you're weak, you're a coward.
I think all the girls have this magical strength within them, thanks to the spell they cast on them. Now whether they accept their mission is not a matter of being strong or not, it's a matter of being brave. You have to be pretty damn brave to put your life on the line every damn day, no matter how strong you are.
Edit: Thinking about it, I guess by "strong" you mean "brave" too. But still, I feel like you're not giving them much choice.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 20, 2009 14:44:47 GMT -5
I don't see how changing the word "strong" to "brave" would be better. Embrace your inner Slayer or you're a coward? That's pretty much the same thing. But yes, when I said "strong", I meant all the usual connotations that come with the word. And no, choosing to just live life as it were doesn't make them weak, they just didn't opt to be special, that's all. There's no shame in anonymity... unless of course you're writing hate mail anonymously, then that's kinda low.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 20, 2009 14:55:44 GMT -5
I don't see how changing the word "strong" to "brave" would be better. Embrace your inner Slayer or you're a coward? That's pretty much the same thing. But yes, when I said "strong", I meant all the usual connotations that come with the word. And no, choosing to just live life as it were doesn't make them weak, they just didn't opt to be special, that's all. There's no shame in anonymity... unless of course you're writing hate mail anonymously, then that's kinda low. I'm just saying that the way you put it: "they can choose to be strong or not" is the same as saying "they can choose between being being strong or weak". If they choose not to be strong, what does that make them? It's tricky and ambiguous. It really is a big weight on their shoulders but I feel like they don't have the choice to refuse embracing their "slayerness" because if they chicken out they will be branded a deserter. So from that perspective, if you consider their choice is very limited and forced upon them, I can see where people are coming from with the whole rape imagery.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 20, 2009 15:02:21 GMT -5
Except that you can't be a deserter if you're not originally enlisted in the army. And as only ~25% of the girls are currently "enlisted", I'd say that the good majority of the girls are running about their lives with no negative stigma attached.
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