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Post by lightandmagic on Jul 20, 2009 1:54:33 GMT -5
I asked this in the character thread for Harmony, but I feel like it would get more views here, and I haven't seen it really discussed before.
So, when Harmony ultimately betrayed Angel to Hamilton was it because she was evil like Angel insists, or was it because Angel didn't put enough trust and faith in her as Harmony insists?
Personally, I'm siding much more with Harmony then with Angel on this issue. Throughout the season it seemed like Harmony was constantly trying to prove to Angel and the gang that she was trying to reform, that she was essentially trying her best to prove herself to them. This is seen most prominently in Harm's Way. But she constantly gets the brush aside, where people ignore her efforts and seem to just assume that she's evil and will never change.
Add in the fact that Harmony has shown time after time to be terrible at being a vampire and wasn't very good at being evil I just don't think it really came all that natural to her.
So, what do you think?
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 20, 2009 5:11:39 GMT -5
I think she always just tries to back the winning team. like we saw in High school /Angel season 2 and then with W&RH... I don't really care anyway, I love Harmony.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 20, 2009 5:41:23 GMT -5
It's clearly because she has no soul. Angel brings her into the "team" and she takes her new information straight to the enemy. She is just not reliable.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 20, 2009 5:55:47 GMT -5
I agree with you lightandmagic. If Harmony had been treated better, I'm not sure she would have betrayed Angel to Hamilton. (Unless he had offered her something she couldn't resist.)
I don't think Harmony has changed that much since Disharmony. She's nice to people who's nice to her, but I think she can do very bad stuff to people who are nice to her too. I think that's what Angel and the others thought as well. That she would always be evil, no matter if they were nice or not.
That doesn't justify their treatment of her however. She did try.
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gumgnome
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Post by gumgnome on Jul 20, 2009 6:40:11 GMT -5
I agree with you lightandmagic. If Harmony had been treated better, I'm not sure she would have betrayed Angel to Hamilton. (Unless he had offered her something she couldn't resist. I disagree with you here. You may be right that Hamilton would have to offer her something, but I don't think it would take much to turn her head! Frankly, I think she's consistently proven that she is undeserving of any trust placed in her. She is soulless and stupid, a bad combination. |
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Post by wenxina on Jul 20, 2009 11:42:17 GMT -5
She is soulless and stupid, a bad combination. Isn't that true of her mortal self anyway?  Harmony has never shown real loyalty. When Cordy was down, she turned around and kicked her in the gut (figuratively speaking) with the whole Jonathan prank. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 20, 2009 12:22:47 GMT -5
Her being evil and soulless played a big part, but you have to give Harmony credit. She tried. I think there could have been chance she wouldn't betray Angel if he did treat her better. Harmony cared about the team, she was sincere to Fred, Wesley and Gunn. It was all about Angel, "Angel's secret plan". Harmony actually helped out a lot and in return he treated her like crap.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 20, 2009 12:33:25 GMT -5
Her being evil and soulless played a big part, but you have to give Harmony credit. She tried. I think there could have been chance she wouldn't betray Angel if he did treat her better. Harmony cared about the team, she was sincere to Fred, Wesley and Gunn. It was all about Angel, " Angel's secret plan". Harmony actually helped out a lot and in return he treated her like crap. He didn' treat her like crap!! He gave her a job!!! |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 20, 2009 12:36:45 GMT -5
Her being evil and soulless played a big part, but you have to give Harmony credit. She tried. I think there could have been chance she wouldn't betray Angel if he did treat her better. Harmony cared about the team, she was sincere to Fred, Wesley and Gunn. It was all about Angel, " Angel's secret plan". Harmony actually helped out a lot and in return he treated her like crap. He didn' treat her like crap!! He gave her a job!!! Actually it was Wesley. And all Angel did was bitch, bitch, bitch. ;D |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 20, 2009 12:45:37 GMT -5
Oh God yes. Angel gave season 5 Dawn a run for her money. They way he whined and bitched about/to Spike and Harmony. Ugh!
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jul 20, 2009 12:50:18 GMT -5
He didn' treat her like crap!! He gave her a job!!! Actually it was Wesley. And all Angel did was bitch, bitch, bitch. ;D My bad... but he could have vetoed his decision. And personally i don't blame him. Both Ats and BTVS have shown us that you CANNOT trust a soul-less vampire, not even Spike. No matter how well they would have treated Harmony, she would have turned her back on them all at some point anyway. |
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zoelee
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Post by zoelee on Jul 20, 2009 13:50:44 GMT -5
i think at the end of the day harmony has shown time and time againt hat she cant be trusted even when she was human. she turned on cordy more than once. tried to kill them more than once. but maybe angel knew more than she relised. i mean with his new visions and all. i mena he knew that it would be hamilton that he had to deal with so he must have know that harmony would of said something to him which is why he probably told her what he was going to do. maybe she was tryin to do good, but it never works out well i just dont know.
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Post by lightandmagic on Jul 20, 2009 14:11:39 GMT -5
To those that have pointed out that Harmony has been disloyal in the past, I'd like to say that doesn't really account for much. She was incredibly disloyal in the past to both Cordelia and Angel and gang, but I think by the time Season 5 had come around she had matured quite a bit.
The whole season it was obvious that she was depressed, and lonely, and that she searching for people to provide confidence in her and be friends with her. She was no longer solely about just herself, she wanted people in her life, she wanted friends and, well, connections. Angel pushed her aside time and time again, put no faith in her, and never boosted her confidence or ever told her she was doing a good job. I find Harm's Way, while an incredibly funny episode, also incredibly sad. Harmony clearly felt isolated, and had grown past the "it's all about me" stage in life.
Hell even before she was hired she states that she had been off human blood for several months. She seemed to be making quite an effort at being a good person.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 20, 2009 14:31:18 GMT -5
I 100% agree. Shells is a perfect example. The two scenes where she comforts Wesley and Gunn are two of my favorite scenes of the entire series. Mercedes also said a scene got deleted where she escorted Gunn on a stretcher after Wes stabbed him. She was growing... as a person.
I'm kind of upset Season 8 didn't touch on this, or hasn't yet.
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Jul 20, 2009 16:22:51 GMT -5
Its who she is. As Angel said Loyalty isn't really that far up with her. Who ever could offer her a better life or better anything she'd take it no matter what she had to do or who she'd hurt. Harmony never changed when she became a vampire. Selfish, funny, ditzy and not really evil but 'mean'.  twilight: |
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jul 20, 2009 18:01:41 GMT -5
Harmony and character development are unmixy things. She hasn't changed and never will, and that's why I love her. |
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jul 20, 2009 19:52:37 GMT -5
i loved Harmony. she was always a good source of comic relief in Buffy. She was my second favorite character in season 5 (next to Fred). and then it all went to crap when she crossed enemy lines and told everything to Hamilton... that made me hater. Always.
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Post by lightandmagic on Jul 20, 2009 19:55:00 GMT -5
But she has changed. Dramatically. Sure she still has her valley girl mentality, but as weird as this sound, her being a vampire has made her far less selfish.
In Buffy, Harmony was shown to really only care about herself. It was always about getting what she wants, and making sure that she seemed cool to the right people.
After she was turned into a vampire it was still always about her, the sole reason why she is dating Spike is because she thinks that he will get her pretty things, and take her places and what not.
But being a vampire was hard, she didn't fit in, she wasn't strong-willed, and she wasn't really evil either. Over time she became more and more isolated and lonely, and unlike every other vampire that we have seen (sans Angel and Spike as they have souls), desperately wanting to become human again. She then began to reach out to Cordelia to try and re-establish friendships. Hell, she even tried to make her happy (initally) to improve their friendship, before she then betrayed her.
Harmony unlike any other vampire does not enjoy killing, nor does she enjoy being a vampire, it's clear that if it were up to her she would be human again which is so rare. I think becoming one taught her alot, and she stopped being so selfish. The Harmony from high school would not have tried to comfort Wesley and Gunn after Fred died, nor do I think would she even be all that sad herself. But she did try and comfort them and she was upset. I truly do think Harmony is trying to be as human as possible as she longs for it so much.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 21, 2009 20:17:56 GMT -5
She may have tried to be good and be a part of the team, but personally I think it was more or less her just trying not to be killed. She isnt in High School anymore so she tries to fit in wherever possible. She tried to fit in with Angels team, then when another opportunity with Hamilton showed up, she jumped on that (literally!).
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Zombierella
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Post by Zombierella on Jul 22, 2009 22:12:03 GMT -5
I have to agree. I think Harmony went up and behond to show Angel and the gang that she wanted to do good. She proved to them many times that she was capable of being a good vampire. Sometimes I think Angel took her for granted and didn't really give her a chance. I mean yes, She did betray them once before, But Angel has given other people second chances. Why not Harmony?
I also think that Harmony desperatly wanted to belong. She had no one. Sure, She worked at W&H but that's a job, it doesn't guarantee friendship or workmanship between her and the others. I think she was lonely. She felt left out of Angels gang. Like Nicholas said, When the opportunity came, Harmony jumped aboard and went with it. To some degree I think she was sick of doing good and not getting noticed for it. I think she figured what would it matter if she did something bad? No one pays attention to her anyways. I think she got sick and tired of being ignored by people trying to do good, so she went on the other side. Maybe then they'd take her seriously. It's hard to think what she was thinking since she's a character. lol.
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