neowhobaz
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"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
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Post by neowhobaz on Aug 28, 2009 19:58:21 GMT -5
ok so in after the fall, bryan went out of his way to say that Illyria's pseudo fred moments werent fred because fred is gone...in the most gonest sense of gone. But I had a theory. Why would Illyria, an evil, soulles old one be affected so much by being in a human body. Demons posess people all the time in the verse with much less trouble. Could it be the weapon from seaspn 5 who's name alludes me that depowered her? nah because all that did was weaken her, not affect her judgement. What about the fact that she acts human, has a certain amount of regard for life ( this could be contested easily), and now in only human is actually trying to embrace humanity to a certain extent. So here comes my theory:
I think some part of Fred's soul is with Illyria. By this I don't wanna imply that fred is the jekyll to illyria's hyde because I truly think fred is gone. What I mean is that some part of the ritual that tehtered Illyria to fred didn't factor in for the human soul which we've seen in the verse to be quite powerful. A good example of how to comprehend this would be to look at Darla.
When Darla was pregnant with Connor she was still a vampire, without a soul, but because of connor's soul...it dictated some of her actions, feelings and eventually her death.
The only specific things Illyria has done to exhibit partial/ soul having would be: Remorse for Wesleys death in "Not fade away", being affected by freds memories when channeled into her through Betta george, and what little other human behavior she's exhibited in the time we've seen her.
Any thoughts? Sorry for any incoherentness.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 28, 2009 21:36:26 GMT -5
I think Illyria has a soul of her own, and always has. It just has never been attuned over the eons to human ideas of morality and goodness and emotion... it's an alien soul. She's now trying to "recalibrate" it. George's contact with her during the battle of Hell-A is what opened the gates for this (traumatically, and at the time unwillingly, for her).
It's pretty clear there's no actual part of Fred's soul inside her (although I don't believe Fred's soul was destroyed). I don't really understand it completely, but I think she mentioned at one point that her channeling of Fred was based mostly upon Gunn and Wes's memories of her. That would explain why she's always a sort of idealized version of her. When she's made enough progress learning to be human in her own right, she'll probably stop channeling Fred altogether.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
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Post by neowhobaz on Aug 30, 2009 20:06:25 GMT -5
I'd agree about her having a soul already but it seems like Joss went out of his way time and time again to distinguish people and demons because people had souls and Demons didnt. Granted Demons werent unfeeling schmucks since there were some nice ones like Merl, clem, and the balancing entity with Big gulp lol, but Illyria is a Demon and an old one no less, which would really sway me from the idea of her/it having a soul prior to shacking up in freds body. I would Agree that being an ancient old one and having seen and done all that she has would give her a better understanding of things and possible soul or even people like qualities moreso than the average demon.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 30, 2009 20:31:11 GMT -5
Some demons have souls and some don't. In the Jossverse the word "demon" is kind of thrown around to mean "any weird looking person originating in another world or dimension." They're not necessarily the "spawn of hell" type demon.
It's clear that in the 'verse, a soul is necessary to be able to experience (healthy) love or to make moral decisions based on something other than your own desires. So "demons" like Lorne, Clem, Merl, Doyle, etc. must have souls. Since Illyria is acquiring the capacity to care about others, she must have one too.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Aug 30, 2009 20:37:35 GMT -5
 gotcha. If only there were canonical confirmation!!!!POR QUE???
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Aug 31, 2009 0:07:32 GMT -5
I don't really understand it completely, but I think she mentioned at one point that her channeling of Fred was based mostly upon Gunn and Wes's memories of her. Angel #23 "Become What You Are" - Illyria is about to punch Gunn's face out, then they reappear in the wrecked hospital room where Gunn was resting/magically healed: "She's not in my head, it wasn't Fred directly. But Wesley and Spike's memories of her, they're whispering in my ear. They worshipped her, you know. She didn't even have to threaten them. I cannot possibly be expected to live up to what this face demands." On a slightly unrelated note, that's not how you spell "worshiped", Brian buddy.  |
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Post by Emmie on Aug 31, 2009 0:49:17 GMT -5
On a slightly unrelated note, that's not how you spell "worshiped", Brian buddy. Was it spelled "worshipped" or "worshiped"? Because the former is correct. ‘worship’, ‘handicap’ and ‘kidnap’ become ‘worshipping/worshipped’, ‘handicapping/handicapped’ and ‘kidnapping/kidnapped’ in standard received British English. |
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Aug 31, 2009 1:07:26 GMT -5
On a slightly unrelated note, that's not how you spell "worshiped", Brian buddy. "Worshipped" is definitely spelled correctly in the comic. In a lot of cases with words ending in P, the P isn't doubled, but with "worshipped" it is. |
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Aug 31, 2009 7:43:24 GMT -5
I don't really understand it completely, but I think she mentioned at one point that her channeling of Fred was based mostly upon Gunn and Wes's memories of her. Angel #23 "Become What You Are" - Illyria is about to punch Gunn's face out, then they reappear in the wrecked hospital room where Gunn was resting/magically healed: "She's not in my head, it wasn't Fred directly. But Wesley and Spike's memories of her, they're whispering in my ear. They worshipped her, you know. She didn't even have to threaten them. I cannot possibly be expected to live up to what this face demands." On a slightly unrelated note, that's not how you spell "worshiped", Brian buddy. This is one of the things that bugs me about this. A Normal demon, even if flooded with memories of another personmight be bothered by the fact its being flooded but wouldn't give a rat's behind about the people who the memories were about or even living up to them, but Illyria does. The question is why? |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 31, 2009 9:25:56 GMT -5
This is one of the things that bugs me about this. A Normal demon, even if flooded with memories of another personmight be bothered by the fact its being flooded but wouldn't give a rat's behind about the people who the memories were about or even living up to them, but Illyria does. The question is why? Because the memories came with the associated emotions still attached. Plus, Illyria likes being worshipped (or worshiped). |
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Aug 31, 2009 13:35:19 GMT -5
This is one of the things that bugs me about this. A Normal demon, even if flooded with memories of another personmight be bothered by the fact its being flooded but wouldn't give a rat's behind about the people who the memories were about or even living up to them, but Illyria does. The question is why? Because the memories came with the associated emotions still attached. Plus, Illyria likes being worshipped (or worshiped). Must be why she thinks she's "infected with humanity" (as she says in the next panel). Also, I checked the spelling of past tense form of "worship". Both ways are correct, but double-P is more common in British English than American English. |
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