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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 30, 2009 16:15:23 GMT -5
I honestly don't know who he is anymore. Not that that's the comics' fault, I just think that sometime during season 5 I lost interest in the character.
Maybe he regrets acting like a jerk to Spike(I mean they're relatively friendly now, so one can assume) and the mind tampering and killing the slave. Or maybe he would do it all over again.
Hard to tell, since these issues aren't adressed properly and I doubt they will be.
And like I said, I'm disconnected with the character, so I might not be a fair judge.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 30, 2009 16:19:49 GMT -5
It's true that dark magic always has consequences. The fact that the spell didn't seem to negatively affect people only shows that either they got lucky (because everyone knows doing something like this means violating minds) or the effects are simply unknown.
It's similar to having your child held hostage by a psycho with a knife and you have a gun. You aim for the psycho and hope you're not hurting the one you love. Except in this instance, in order to kill the psycho, you have to shoot through your child's shoulder. You hurt your child to save your child - oh, but you also shoot through all of your friends and co-workers too in the process. This injury results in memory loss and even delusional memories taking the place of the memories there before - all the memories constructed are lighter in context so that the mind can deal with the trauma.
But as for you with the gun - you still damaged your friends. Sure, they might appear on the surface to be better, but you've still violated them.
This isn't a situation where there are good options. Frankly, what disturbs me the most besides recreating Connor's whole existence is that reshaping everyone else's memories on Angel's team was unnecessary.
So yeah, this was a crime committed against the minds of his friends and his son to 'save' his son. But in the place of letting Connor, self-destruct here I can understand the inclination. Except it smacks of Willow's spell in Tabula Rasa - oh, Buffy misses heaven. Well I'll make her forget and then she'll be okay! What gives Willow or Angel the right to play with people's minds like this? They don't have the right. In Angel's case, he could have tried to actually help his son with his trauma - he essentially gives up, saying he can't help his son, that nothing can help his son except forgetting his entire life and living a new one. Maybe he's right.
But as for wiping his friends' memories - that was completely unnecessary. Gratuitous.
The tragedy of Season 4 to me is that ever since Angel kicked Connor out of the Hyperion in Deep Down, he's been taking a passive role. His distance led to Jasmine!Cordy taking advantage of Connor. His anger and jealousy led to him pushing Connor even further away and strengthening Connor's bond with Jasmine who would lead to this epic disillusionment with humanity and life itself.
Was Connor really beyond all hope? What if Angel had taken a look at Faith in Five by Five and gone "oh hey, let's just wipe away your memories and you'll be fine!"? Angel knows better than anyone that you have to own your actions. Connor's done some very horrible things (he murdered that innocent girl in Inside Out) so why should he get to forget? Instead, Angel should have devoted himself to finding Connor peace.
What if Buffy had taken a look at Spike insane in the basement and asked Willow to wipe away his memories?
Connor was driven to these awful circumstances, lost perspective on life - but he had free will. He made bad choices and was manipulated. But he still chose that path.
Basically, Angel got a quick magical fix for Connor that would have taken a lifetime of therapy to address (and maybe he'd have failed). But why does Connor get this easy fix when Faith and Spike and Angel himself have to struggle on their own with what they've done and what they've become? Or what about Dana, the insane Slayer?
Angel, Spike and Faith have all fought back insanity, lived with death wishes - and it wasn't so much their formative years as children that helped them. It was having someone believe in them - for Angel and Spike it was Buffy. For Faith, it was Angel. Connor needed Angel to believe in him. Connor wanted a real father the entire time and Angel pretty much was inable to be what Connor needed. That's how I view it as Angel giving up his fatherhood role - he gave it away to a normal family. The normal family could save Connor where Angel felt he couldn't.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 30, 2009 16:30:05 GMT -5
In Angel's case, he could have tried to actually help his son with his trauma - he essentially gives up, saying he can't help his son, that nothing can help his son except forgetting his entire life and living a new one. Maybe he's right. I think by that point, Connor was far too damaged to respond to any help. He wanted to end his own life, and I've occasionally wondered if his whole hostage situation was just a lure to get Angel to do it for him. The interesting thing is that despite remembering everything again after the memory spell was undone, Connor was actually quite well-adjusted. Which lends credence to the belief that the childhood is an extremely important formative period. Because he still remembers his fake happy childhood, remembers feeling loved and being safe, Connor didn't revert to psycho killer Connor, but in fact actually understands why Angel did what he did, and realizes how much his father loves him. I don't know if Angel actually gave up on trying to save his son; it seemed more like he was able to see past his own wants (to have Connor love him back), and put his son's needs ahead of his own. But I do agree that mind-raping his own team was quite unnecessary, unless the reality altering deal was an all or nothing kind of thing, which knowing Wolfram and Hart, would probably be the case. How better to cast Angel in dubious light than to have him screw around with his friends?
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Post by angeliclestat on Oct 30, 2009 17:02:44 GMT -5
That's a good way of looking at it wenxina - I hadnt thought of it that way before. But yes the tampering with his friends minds was not right - it was a betrayal which really lead to the downfall of Wesley. It would have been nice to have addressed that a bit more/
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Post by wenxina on Oct 30, 2009 22:57:25 GMT -5
But why does Connor get this easy fix when Faith and Spike and Angel himself have to struggle on their own with what they've done and what they've become? Erm... because Connor is his son, and Angel feels at least partially responsible for Connor's damaged psyche. Angel felt no such baggage in terms of Faith and Spike. What Angel did to save Connor wasn't a surrender of fatherhood; it was his definitive act of fatherhood towards Connor. He gave Connor what he needed, at great cost to himself.
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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Oct 31, 2009 1:44:38 GMT -5
I think that Angel's a hero. Is he perfect? No. Just because he's a hero does not mean that he won't make mistakes. As for the Connor memory wipe, did he do the right thing, and the answer is maybe, maybe not. Plus in the end most of the characters got there memories back(except for Fred)Wesley got his memories back when he broke the orb, and Gunn and Lorne(probably)when L.A. got sent to Hell.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 31, 2009 5:19:45 GMT -5
But why does Connor get this easy fix when Faith and Spike and Angel himself have to struggle on their own with what they've done and what they've become? Erm... because Connor is his son, and Angel feels at least partially responsible for Connor's damaged psyche. Angel felt no such baggage in terms of Faith and Spike. What Angel did to save Connor wasn't a surrender of fatherhood; it was his definitive act of fatherhood towards Connor. He gave Connor what he needed, at great cost to himself. Well, duh lol. I know why Angel gives Connor special treatment. I'm talking more about why we as fans all view this differently. And frankly, I think it's kinda sad that Connor needed his Dad to remake him for him to be okay. It just undercuts that Connor was there for Angel, not there to save himself. He doesn't get to change himself the way that Faith and Spike get too. Connor doesn't get to earn his redemption - his Daddy earns it for him. Imagine if Tara's parents wanted to wipe away her memories to make her okay instead of letting her make her own choices. I know, in the end, it had a positive effect for Connor. But that doesn't change the fact that Connor's will was violated. If Connor were a doll, then Angel just Priya-ized him and forced him into the Dollhouse in the most violent way possible. Considering how that is the closest fictional equivalent I can find for Connor's situation in terms of identity being wiped away and the manner in which it was done (without his consent) - yeah, I'm not cheering Angel on here. It's just like how Topher felt justified in wiping Priya because she was presumably schizophrenic. Connor was suicidal, so would anyone who's suicidal lose their right to choose and be forced to become someone else?
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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Oct 31, 2009 5:55:09 GMT -5
Why are we judgeing Angel's heroism on the mindwipe? We might as well judge Buffy for the Slayer spell. Our heroes are not always going to make the right choices, and it would be pretty boring if they were perfect.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 31, 2009 8:55:52 GMT -5
Connor was suicidal, so would anyone who's suicidal lose their right to choose and be forced to become someone else? By law, suicidal people do lose their right to choose, as in their choice of ending their life or not is usually nullified. We prevent these things all the time. Stick them into a facility, give them treatment, etc. All these things are forced upon the person. But we're kinda sidetracked here. So... hero or not. Well, considering there's no such thing as a perfect hero, since they all make mistakes, good intentioned or not, Angel would probably still qualify as one. I don't draw the line of distinction between hero or champion... they seem to be used interchangeably in the Buffyverse.
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Becki
Common Vampire
[Mo0:8]
Posts: 77
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Post by Becki on Oct 31, 2009 11:00:14 GMT -5
Angel has stopped the world from ending. That alone defines him as a hero. When you save 6 billion people, what else could you be called? Plus, just recently, he gave his life willingly at the very hope that Wolfram and Hart would revert time, saving all of L.A. in the process. That certainly makes up for those that think he did wrong by taking out the Circle (which I've always felt was an incredibly courageous thing to do and Angel's defining moment as a hero). I could go on and on, but yes, Angel is definitely a hero. Very well put. I completely agree with you.
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Zombierella
Potential Slayer
You can't swing a cat without hitting some kind of demonic activity. Not that I swing cats. [Mo0:0]
Posts: 158
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Post by Zombierella on Nov 4, 2009 11:17:05 GMT -5
One thing about Season 5 that really ticks me off is that Angel can't accept the fact that Spike changed willingly.He went through the demon trials and nearly died during them all to obtain his own soul.Angels soul was handed to him.Not because he wanted it but because the gypsies cursed him with it.
Angel is a champion, But so is Spike.Angel wants the shan shu prophecy to be about him and he doesn't feel like Spike deserves it.But if you think about it,Spike went through alot more to save the world than Angel did.Yes,Angel has saved the world many times..But it's because he's trying to atone.He's trying to right the wrongs he had done in the past.However,Spike knows he can never make up for the pain and misery he has caused, but he's trying to do the right thing anyways. For once, Spike is being unselfish.He's doing the right thing, fighting the good fight because he knows it's the right thing to do.
Do I think Angel is a good hero? Yes. Do I think Spike is a good hero as well? Yes. They are both champions.The difference between them is Spike has more drive and instead of getting his destiny thrown in his lap he had to work for it.He had to work so hard to change his path, to fight the good fight and to use his fighting abilities for good.
As much as I love Angel, and as much as I know it isn't EASY for him simply because he didnt go on a hunt for his own soul, I do know this: Angel is like a bomb waiting to go off.Anyone could cast a spell to extract his soul, or he could lose it due to pure happiness.
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willowsummers
Respected Watcher
Quality time with Mr. Gordo?
Dabbling with magic[Mo0:9]
Posts: 579
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Post by willowsummers on Nov 6, 2009 23:11:00 GMT -5
I know I've posted to this thread before and I expressed doubt about how Angel acted in After The Fall, but that is all. He is a flawed creature dealing with the most difficult questions but he is always strong and he is always fighting. No one is perfect and we're not going to learn much from someone who is. Angel makes an even better hero because he may make mistakes and may not always make the best decisions. What makes him a hero is that he is willing to do whatever it takes to save the world, to save those he cares about and he never stops. Even Buffy herself makes mistakes and loses her way now and again. But this game isn't won by winning every hand, it's by sticking to your guns and PLAYING every hand. If someone can find me a better hero than the two of them, I'd love to see them.
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