Is Angel a good hero?

[angeliclestat]

Just wonder what people think about this. When he started out on the show Angel was the typical 'hero' - he was brave,uncompromising and willing to sacrifice his own happiness for others.

But as the series went on and he grew as a character did he become more realistic - he continued to be brave and fearless in the face of battle, but did the fight with evil taint him? Did he compromise a bit too much?

Did he live up to the ideal of the hero?

[Skytteflickan88]

By the end of season 5 I didn't admire him the way I did in season 1. He was still a warrior, but not a hero. His and my morals seemed to differ too much.

In The Ring he was heroic. I like to think he didn't kill the other fighters, not only because he didn't want to be forced to, but because he thought the demons deserved to live(until proven evil). However, in Not Fade Away, he killed a pitiful helpless demon slave as a "means to and end" in a pointless suicidal plan(not that killing someone so helpless as that slave would have been a nice thing if the plan has been good).

In Season 1 he was still suprised at what humans could do to each other, but through the show, he got, for the lack of a better word, "jaded". And more of a "bigger picture", "for the greater good" kind of guy.

He slept with Darla(and he seemed suprised that he didn't lose his soul), he left Merl hanging upside down(he might as well have killed him, leaving him helpess like that), he mind-violated his friends, son and his son's new family(I doubt they volounteered), he acted like a jerk towards Spike in season 5, not giving the guy any support at first at all, and then he killed the slave.

I still love the guy, I do, but I definitly don't admire him as much as I used too.

[willowsummers]

I would have completely said yes until the very last episode and I still don't know what I think about that. His idea is a noble one but several of the things he did seemed rather Machiavellian. One can argue that this is no longer Angel or that there really was no other way to beat evil. I know I don't like it. I hate it that he killed Drogyn and I hate it that he had Lorne kill Lindsay.

[Hallow Thorn]

Oct 29, 2009 12:33:36 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

he acted like a jerk towards Spike in season 5.

So right... if he killed Spike then he would have been more of a hero in my books. (jk)

[angeliclestat]

Controversial Thorn....controversial:)

[Hallow Thorn]

lol... na, like Angel said, Spike was the hero for season 5 of Angel.

[Tea - Total]

Personally, no .I think his story and character is boring at the end of Angel .I like how he made his impressive cooperation and business for fighting evil, but then went down hill ,don't give me wrong he is a good warrior but for me the best warrior in the entire Buffy verse it has to be Buffster. For me Buffster is more heroic and superior champion to Angel.
Angel going threw redemption that’s his path really.

[Wyndam]

Angel has stopped the world from ending. That alone defines him as a hero. When you save 6 billion people, what else could you be called?

Plus, just recently, he gave his life willingly at the very hope that Wolfram and Hart would revert time, saving all of L.A. in the process. That certainly makes up for those that think he did wrong by taking out the Circle (which I've always felt was an incredibly courageous thing to do and Angel's defining moment as a hero).

I could go on and on, but yes, Angel is definitely a hero.

[Tea - Total]

Oct 30, 2009 11:42:12 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

Angel has stopped the world from ending. That alone defines him as a hero. When you save 6 billion people, what else could you be called?

Plus, just recently, he gave his life willingly at the very hope that Wolfram and Hart would revert time, saving all of L.A. in the process. That certainly makes up for those that think he did wrong by taking out the Circle (which I've always felt was an incredibly courageous thing to do and Angel's defining moment as a hero).

I could go on and on, but yes, Angel is definitely a hero.

But he not the only one to save the world form unstoppable evil.
Buffy sacrifice her own life to save the world.
.I do agree that, he proved himself to be a hero.
Spike a more of a hero,because he sacrificed his own life to save the world form the brutal firsts army of Turok Hans.

[Skytteflickan88]

Oct 30, 2009 11:42:12 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

Angel has stopped the world from ending. That alone defines him as a hero. When you save 6 billion people, what else could you be called?

Warrior or champion perhaps.

It all comes down to how you define the term hero.

To me, Angel was a hero up until the moment of the mind-violations. Before that I could like and admire him much more. Now I would be more comfortable calling him warrior or champion, since those terms have less of a righteous-good-guy sound to them.

But like I said, it's about definition.

Plus, just recently, he gave his life willingly at the very hope that Wolfram and Hart would revert time, saving all of L.A. in the process. That certainly makes up for those that think he did wrong by taking out the Circle (which I've always felt was an incredibly courageous thing to do and Angel's defining moment as a hero).

Doing something right doesn't mean that something wrong is undone.

I'm not saying that Angel's more of a villian than a hero, but I really don't think Angel can make up for things he's done wrong until he feels true I-wish-I-could-undo it remorse for them.

That makes me think of Spike trying to convince Buffy that one life doesn't tip the scale in Dead Things.

Just because you've done a lot of good things doesn't mean you should be alowed to do a bad thing once in a while.

[Wyndam]

Angel isn't perfect though, and he shouldn't be expected to be. Any good hero also makes a few bad decisions along the way. Buffy could have prevented a lot of deaths and a possible apocalypse in Season 2 by killing Angelus when she originally had the chance. She is still labeled a hero though, for what was clearly a bad decision on her part.

It's the same thing with Angel. He has made bad decisions, but has done so much more good that he can't be labeled as anything less than a hero, in my book.

As for the memory tampering in Home. Angel did it to save the life of his son. Anyone on this planet would have done the exact same thing for the person they love more than anything else.

[Skytteflickan88]

Oct 30, 2009 12:47:31 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

As for the memory tampering in Home. Angel did it to save the life of his son. Anyone on this planet would have done the exact same thing for the person they love more than anything else.

Didn't Connor's new family include siblings? People too young to sign off on having their minds tampered with? Assuming the family voluenteered.

I understand why Connor's mind was tampered with and partially Wesley's and the others (so they couldn't be tricked to tell about Connor's whereabouts) but there was no reason to tamper with the family.

Connor could have been a well adjusted kid even if he believed he's grown up in different foster homes his entire life and now lived on his own. No need to tamper too much.

I mean for christ sakes, Angel even made sure Connor wouldn't like older women. That's overkill.

Of course, I don't have a son. Maybe I wouldn't care about right or wrong in case my kid was in danger.

What I'm saying is; The idea wasn't bad. But the tampering went too far.

[Wyndam]

There were never any ill side effects to Connor joining the family though (except for the mugging from Vail's goons). The only one I can think of is that Connor's new siblings got an older brother to look up to and admire (Connor's new self was incredibly smart and being accepted into prestigious schools). Besides that, the entire purpose wasn't just giving Connor a well-adjusted life, but a good family (just look at the parallels between the first scene of the season and the final one).

While I understand that tampering with adolescent minds can be a sticky subject, this is the Buffyverse. The same rules don't always apply as they do in the real world.

[Tea - Total]

Oct 30, 2009 13:09:37 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Oct 30, 2009 12:47:31 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

As for the memory tampering in Home. Angel did it to save the life of his son. Anyone on this planet would have done the exact same thing for the person they love more than anything else.

Didn't Connor's new family include siblings? People too young to sign off on having their minds tampered with? Assuming the family voluenteered.

I understand why Connor's mind was tampered with and partially Wesley's and the others (so they couldn't be tricked to tell about Connor's whereabouts) but there was no reason to tamper with the family.

Connor could have been a well adjusted kid even if he believed he's grown up in different foster homes his entire life and now lived on his own. No need to tamper too much.

I mean for christ sakes, Angel even made sure Connor would like older women. That's overkill.

Of course, I don't have a son. Maybe I wouldn't care about right or wrong in case my kid was in danger.

What I'm saying is; The idea wasn't bad. But the tampering went too far.

I agree its killing his real identity.And thats not good.

[Skytteflickan88]

I guess the main problem I have with the situation is that we have no idea if there actually are any consequences at all to this spell(other than that a part of ). We've been told and shown that dark magic can have ill effects. Isn't it fair to assume this spell could have too?

Since I doubt Angel has a deep understanding of magic, and could calculate the effects on the families souls, minds and bodies, he had no right to ask a spell like that to be used. For Connor, a clean slate might have been the only thing to do, but the family and Wesley & c/o had better options.

[Tea - Total]

Angel had a lack of knowledge on the whole magic subject. Magic always have consequence. Wesley discovers Angel's deception and he was deceitfully and confronts him , now Wesley the old watcher doesn’t trust Angel. And the effects of magic’s can affect everybody around you.

[angeliclestat]

Oct 30, 2009 13:09:37 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

I mean for christ sakes, Angel even made sure Connor would like older women. That's overkill.

Wasn't it the opposite:)

I think that in the 1st season Angel was much more of an idealist. Remember in 'The Ring'

Cut to Angel waking up in a leather chair in a nice office with the dark-haired lady from the bar watching him.
Lady: “How do you feel?”
Angel: “Like I was hit by lightning after the truck ran me over. - I remember you.”
Lady brings him a glass of champagne: “We didn’t get a chance to meet. I’m Lilah Morgan.”
Angel: “You’re a fight fan. (Looks at her bookshelves) And a lawyer. Let me guess – Wolfram and Hart.”
Lilah: “I’m an associate here. It took some arm-twisting, but I convinced the Macnamara to sell your contract to the partners. - I told them that keeping you around would be more trouble than it was worth. (Lifts her glass) Congratulations. You’re free.”
Angel: “As long as I pretend it never happened – that Macnamara and his circus don’t exist. - That is the deal, isn’t it?”
Lilah: “It’s a big city, Angel. A lot of people need your help.”
Angel: “So you’re really a good Samaritan and this whole pact-with-the-devil business is just an act.”
Lilah: “Sometimes you have to – compromise.”
Angel: “Look the other way you mean – when Wolfram and Hart are involved?”
Lilah: “I prefer to think of it - as picking the battles you can win. There is not one reason why we can’t work together.”
Angel gets up with a big sigh.
Angel: “You’re right. (He takes a sip from his glass of champagne as Lilah smiles at him) There are about a thousand.”
Lilah leans in close to him: “I saw what you did to Baker – so I know you want to survive. This is your only chance. Take it.”
Angel: “Thanks for the champagne.”
The two guards stick their charged cattle prods into his face.
Angel: “Relax. Take me back.”

At that time Angel could be like that because he was at the start of his fight in LA. But part of his 'mission statement' was to connect with humanity...to form friendships, family and to be more like a human.

So is being more human sometimes toeing the line, compromising and doing things which morally grey the situation? And was he a better hero when he was just alone in a basement fighting vamps here and there...or when he connected more with people as the series progressed.

[Hallow Thorn]

There is No doubt Angel is/was a Hero. He lost his way a few times that is all. Just like Buffy has/did.

[Skytteflickan88]

Thanks, angeliclestat, I fixed the error.

I think that in season 1, he was a idealist. In season 2, he was becoming a realist and in season 3 and 4 he was one, and he was as well adjusted as we would ever see him. But in season 5 he became attached. So even tough he was saving lots of people in season 5, more than before, seeing that fighting evil had in a way made him less good, made me miss the basement-fighting days.

Oct 30, 2009 15:33:07 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

There is No doubt Angel is/was a Hero. He lost his way a few times that is all. Just like Buffy has/did.

Thing is, I'm not sure Angel found his way again.

That reminds me how I see him sometimes. As a guy who strayed of the path and who doesn't look like he'll be finding it anytime soon(but I'm hopeful, otherwise I don't think I could continue reading the comics).

He has a new path now, and it's leading in the right direction, but I guess one could say that I don't like the way he's walking on the path. You know, stepping over a demon slave corpse or two.

[angeliclestat]

Do you not think though that by the end of After the Fall he had managed to find his way back onto the path? Just wanting to help?

I knw AtF contained a lot of 'Big Picture' stuff, but having been through that,....having seen what compromising with evil can do....does he not earn the benefit of the doubt that he will do the right thing?

Of course the whole celebrity issue muddies the waters yet again, but from what we know about Willinghams 1st arc he will be dealing with that. If season 5 was ' Can you fight evil from the Belly of the Beast and not be tainted', maybe this next arc will be 'How do you fight evil, when you are famous and not lose your connection with people.'?