Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 638
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Post by Saturn 5 on Nov 30, 2009 5:28:21 GMT -5
This will be a bit off topic but: You could argue that it's different to Jonathon too because the spell he does is too improve himself rather than affect other people. That's not true. He took away Buffy's sense of self, her belief in herself as a fighter and person. She even let Spike touch her after he mocked her, when normally, he wouldn't let him finish the first insult. And everyone's else had been hexed to love Jonathan. He took away the cool from everyone else and added to himself, made people think that what they had done, he had done, but so much better. That's why I can't watch that episode. I keep thinking of the twins he sleeps with, who's will he's tampered with. They might not have struggeled, but the fact is, without that spell, they wouldn't have been with him. And now they might need therapy to deal with the incest-problem. I understand that Jonathan's deep in denial of how far he's gone, and that he's actually a good guy, and that he doesn't wake up from that denial until after his third rape-victim, Katrina, dies. Until then, he lived in a fog where he could make the world around him do things to make him feel better, he wanted to be "evil" and do dangerous things, yet expected no one to get hurt. Rant over. Yeah but Jonathon doesn't demean the other characters he just makes himself better. And he spares Buffy being killed by the Master etc. As for the twins they'll probably just hook up with Hugh Hefner or some rockstar or whatever, the way they look all men will want threesomes with them. It was just they thought Jonathon was something he wasn't, as though they had sex with him because they thought he was a film producer and then they find out he was lying, it was still their choice. And they could always get jobs for stage magicians, you need identical twins for many of the classic illusions
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Nov 30, 2009 6:49:32 GMT -5
He does demean other people, and he didn't just change himself. He changed the entire world, he didn't just lie. He made Buffy weak. He took away some of her greatest triumfs (like for example beating the master) and took the credit for it. He made her into less of the "hell of a woman" we see today. He made people love and adore him, in a unnatural and fanatic way. He raped their minds, and in the twin's case, their bodies. The fact that they're hot has nothing to do with that. It wasn't that they were fooled, that Jonathan lied to them, just like any person could do. That spell couldn't possible just have been about that people thought he did things. He made them believe he could do nothing wrong. No one but Buffy questioned his achievements, which could be because her slayerness made mer immun, they didn't respond to reason when presented with how weird it was that Jonathan had done so many amazing stuff (like how he filmed Matrix without leaving Sunnydale, or something like that). Both their memories and emotions where tampered with. I think it's pretty clear that what Jonathan did was worse than Willow did. He didn't just change memories, he took away people's free will, similar to how Jasmine did it, with good intention, but zero empathy. I really wish Buffy had kicked his ass, and that the twin's had ripped him a new one (assuming they had any idea that they were violated, not just tricked). Anything to take him on a guilttrip so he could wake up from denial-dreamland. That's part of why I don't like season 6, seeing Andrew and Jonathan so deep in denial got old fast. EDIT- Free will? How'd he do that? Everyone still had a choice. I don't see how making himself a superhero which in turn made Buffy feel inadequate is worse than delving into your girlfriend's mind and deleting what you don't like. They had a lot less choice. They believed he was nice, a hero. They idolized him, because of that spell. It wasn't as strong as Jasmine's spell, but it was unnatural. I could be wrong of course, but everyone just seemed so out of character, so I assume they were under a mind/love-spell. And then one could argue against those points. All I'm saying is; Both spells where selfish and effected people's free will in one way or another. Not exactly equal, but comparable. I would say that what Jonathan did was a lot worse, like triple what Willow did, because he removed/changed a lot of memories to change lots of people, while Willow removed one memory, from one person, to avoid a fight. Of course, then you have to add the betrayal-factor (what is worse, messing with strangers in a horrible way, or mess with your girlfriend in a slightly less horrible way?). It kind of seems like a endless argument, who was worse, so I'll just settle with saying that I lost respect for both characters. EDIT EDIT- I notice that you've deleted your comment Henz, but I'll still keep this post.
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Post by dragonweaver on Nov 30, 2009 13:59:31 GMT -5
Willow's actions toward Tara in season 6 were horrible and wrong and I believe that there is plenty of support for the rape analysis; however I believe that there is a point of over analyzing. Tara never expressed any anger or emotion over the sex that occurred after Willow's spell and therefore it is fair to say that Tara did not see Willow's actions as rape. So with that, in the context of what we saw on the show, I say my answer to the topic question is no.
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Just Willow
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Look to the Western Sky
[Mo0:22]
Posts: 2,575
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Post by Just Willow on Nov 30, 2009 15:00:32 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure I'd call it rape. The spell made her forget the argument only. Agreed Tara probably wouldn't have slept with Willow based on her mind-set at the time. Ow who knows, maybe they would of had angry sex. But either way rape is a violation of the body without consent. Tara had merely forgotten the argument, she wasn't what I would call under Willow's control. Willow was trying to make her forget the argument, not too make her jump into bed with her. As Sky said I would expect she would feel more betrayed from the way that she was made to forget the spell and then participated in sexual intercourse. Rape - no. Betrayed - more likely. i was trying to think of a way to type out my own argument so that it wouldn't sound exactly like Rays, but i couldn't do it, so i'll just quote him, lol. i agree with this ^^
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Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 638
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Post by Saturn 5 on Nov 30, 2009 17:17:59 GMT -5
You're right pointing out that Jonathon altered everyone's memories but he installed memories rather than took them away, he portrayed himself as something he wasn't. That's why the twins had sex with him, they'd have done the same with a sportstar or millionaire or famous actor or rockstar or Hugh Hefner or whatever, he lied, pretended to be something he wasn't.
Now of course he does take some of Buffy's achievements away from her but he aids supports her in other ways plus she doesn't have to remember being killed by the master etc?
So, I rate both as wrong but what Willow did as worse
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Nov 30, 2009 17:43:32 GMT -5
I really think the spell was beyond changing memories, everyone seem too devoted to him, like their emotions where effected as well. I guess one could call it a adoration/love-spell.
Afterwards, Xander speak of how he's missing something:
It reminds me how empty everyone felt after Jasmine's love-spell-thingy was lifted. I don't think what we saw in Superstar wasn't the usual kind of loss, the kind after you find out you've been lied to.
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tkts
Rogue Demon Hunter
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 439
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Post by tkts on Nov 30, 2009 20:08:47 GMT -5
Willow didn't use the memory spell with the intent of tricking Tara into bed, and some time did elapse between the two occurrences. There's also no evidence that Tara feels the sex was coerced, even after she finds out about the spell. By some time, you mean something like less than 30 seconds? The scene pretty much ends with the two of them snuggling and giggling. Tara probably wasn't as concerned about the sex bit as she was with the fact that Willow tampered with her mind. Especially since it's a sensitive area, considering that Tara was brain-sucked by Glory in S5... a trauma that she's not fully over yet, as referenced in the reprise of "I'm Under Your Spell/Standing". Hm ... I guess I was thinking of the implied sex in OMWF, rather than anything that might have happened at the end of "All the Way."
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Post by wenxina on Nov 30, 2009 22:29:10 GMT -5
I think you'll find that my stance is pretty consistent throughout. That the rape, or violation, if you will, is not sexual, but rather the removal of Tara's autonomy. So, regardless of whether they actually had sex at the end of the episode, the rape had already happened. I was just pointing out that sex was possible right after the spell was performed.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 29, 2010 19:30:12 GMT -5
I don't think that Willow had raped Tara. I'm sure that Willow and Tara had truly made up and had sex. Are you talking about right before Willow & Tara made up in Entropy? It's unclear if you mean just right before they made up in Entropy or earlier in the season as well, specially since most of the thread has been about the memory spell in All The Way.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 29, 2010 20:49:45 GMT -5
Al right, I just thought the post seemed out of the blue and wanted to ask since no recent poster before yours had written that Willow might had raped Tara in Entropy.
But wasn't their last fight in Tabula Rasa? I'm not sure which fight Willow might have made Tara forget so she would forgive her.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 29, 2010 21:28:47 GMT -5
It's very unlikely that Willow would have removed Tara's memory of the fight in Tabula Rasa. Not without removing the memory of the fight and spell in All the way, and the spell in Tabula Rasa that took place after the fight. Simply removing the Tabula Rasa-fight wouldn't work. Then there's the months apart that Willow would have to "explain". Then modify everyone elses memories so they wouldn't remember Tara & Willow breaking up and the spell in Tabula Rasa they themselves feel victim to. Willow would have to "fix" all that. That's a incredibly complicated spell, and there's no reason Willow would have done it, considering how well Tara and she was doing, becoming friends again, talking, joking. There's no reason Willow would make a spell between this scene in Entropy vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=3663 when they catch up and this scene were they make up vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=3671 (I assume you mean that the spell would have been done between those scenes, since they're were still broken up). And in case Willow had "fixed" Tara in the way you describe, what was Tara's talking about in the make up scene? She was talking about something she and Willow had to get passed, she didn't act like she was under any kind of spell or had forgotten anything.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 30, 2010 7:25:20 GMT -5
Hehe, I know the feeling.
But I don't know, it's not like it's impossible that Willow used some sort of spell to make Tara forgive her. I don't want to believe that about her, but it's not like I expected her to do the memory spells either. I ahve no idea what Willow is capable off.
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tkts
Rogue Demon Hunter
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 439
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Post by tkts on Jun 30, 2010 21:52:13 GMT -5
Hehe, I know the feeling. But I don't know, it's not like it's impossible that Willow used some sort of spell to make Tara forgive her. I don't want to believe that about her, but it's not like I expected her to do the memory spells either. I ahve no idea what Willow is capable off. Are we talking about "Entropy" still? If we are, I don't think there were any spells involved. Willow was pretty well back on the wagon at that point.
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Scarygothgirl
Ensouled Vampire
'What are you doing here? This is a naked place!'
~The Truth Will Free My Soul~[Mo0:32]
Posts: 1,230
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Post by Scarygothgirl on Jul 10, 2010 15:21:41 GMT -5
Goodness I never thought of it that way. I suppose thinking about it it would amount to rape as she's magically altering Tara's mind, and if she hadn't done that then Tara would not have wanted to have sex with her.
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