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Post by midwesternwatcher on Sept 3, 2010 16:14:40 GMT -5
Although most people don't think I have a weight problem, I'm always trying to lose. I find it helps me to take in about 100 calories each hour. It keeps the hunger under some control, and it's supposed to fool th body into giving up fat. It works for me, and I know other people who do the same thing. You might try to carrying a few apples or bananas with you.
Good luck!
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Sept 1, 2010 11:16:49 GMT -5
I'm in the middle of "Tough Love" right now. The last episode I finished was "Intervention." That was a flawed episode, the rhythm dragged in crucial places, the director whoever it was fell down on the job, and Clare Kramer had an off day, she wasn't concentrating but ... it was Spike's finest hour. That scene at the end, where Buffy kisses him, and leaves saying "I won't forget it," that reverberates in my mind.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 31, 2010 22:22:51 GMT -5
Did the relationship help her with the problem? Or did it just soothe it? Just exactly how was Willow's sickness involved in the relationship? Did Tara ever think, consciously or not, "this person is needy and I'd like to be needed, I'd like to be the strong one, after being put down by my father and brother all those years." It's not enough to say "Willow had the problem, not the relationship." We have to face these questions.
BTW, this might help. This is from the script of "Tough Love", about 17 to 19 minutes:
WILLOW It wasn't anything, really; Buffy was just being kinda crabby at Dawn about her schoolwork.
TARA Well, it's understandable...
WILLOW Sure it is! I'd totally be blowing off classes if I was in Dawnie's shoes.
TARA Sweetie, you wouldn't blow off class if your head was on fire. And I meant Buffy.
WILLOW Buffy what?
TARA Understandable. About the crabby; I mean she has to look after Dawn now.
WILLOW Yeah, but not in a 'Miss Minchin's Select Seminary for Girls' way, I mean she'll just make Dawn even more rebellious--
TARA (overlapping slightly) I had to deal with my brother's problems after, I mean -- you really can't know what it's like to--
WILLOW (defensively) I know that.
Slight pause -- there was a touch of bitterness, just a touch, in that reply.
TARA I didn't mean--
WILLOW No, I just, I mean I know I can't know what you went through, I just... It's no big.
TARA I made you mad.
WILLOW No, no...
TARA All I meant was that--
WILLOW --It's okay, the whole Buffy thing just -- Forget it.
TARA No, please, if I... I mean, tell me if I said something wrong. Otherwise I know I'll say it again, probably often and in public.
WILLOW No, I was snippy gal, it's just... I know I can't, on some level... it's like my opinion isn't worth anything because I haven't been through... I didn't lose my mom, so I don't know...
TARA Well I'm not the expert, I mean, I only lost one... Do I act like I'm the big Knowledge Woman?
WILLOW No...
TARA Is that "no" spelled Y-E-S?
WILLOW S-O-R-T of... it's just... I mean I just feel like the junior partner sometimes, you've been doing everything longer than me, you've been out longer, and practicing witchcraft way longer--
TARA --Oh but you're way beyond me there. In just a few -- I mean it frightens me how powerful you're getting.
Beat. That was definitely the wrong thing to say.
WILLOW That's a weird word.
TARA (knows damn well) "Getting"?
WILLOW It frightens you? I frighten you?
TARA That's so not what I mean. I meant impresses, impressive...
WILLOW Well I took Psyche 101 -- I mean, I took it from an evil government scientist who was skewered by her Frankenstein-like creation right before the final -- but I know what a Freudian slip is. (beat) Don't you trust me?
TARA With my life!
WILLOW That's not what I mean.
TARA Can't we just go the fair?
WILLOW I'm not feeling real multicultural right now. What is it about me that you don't trust?
TARA It's not that. I worry. Sometimes... You're changing so much, so fast, I don't know... where you're heading...
WILLOW Where I'm heading?
TARA I'm saying everything wrong.
WILLOW (vulnerable) I think you're being pretty clear. It isn't the witch thing -- this is about the other changes in my life.
TARA I trust you. I just... I don't know where I'm gonna fit in. In your life, when --
WILLOW When I 'change back'? Yeah, this is just a college thing, just a little experimentation before I get over the thrill and head back to boys' town. You think that?
She is pretty confrontational here. Even Tara is surprised that she meets it halfway:
TARA Should I?
Beat. Bitter.
WILLOW You know, I'm really sorry I didn't establish my lesbo street cred before I got into this relationship. But you're the only woman I've ever fallen in love with, so how on earth could you possibly take me seriously?
And she's heading out.
----------- Notice a few things. Tara mentions her experience at mothering, after her own mother died. She's the only Scooby who has that experience. Willow feels that Tara is "pulling rank" on her, and says she always feels like "the junior partner," just as she feels like the "sidekick" to Buffy. It sounds to me like Tara has more power in the relationship than Willow, because she's doing most of the giving.
One more thing. I hope I'm being clear hear.
I love the Willow-Tara relationship too. It is beautiful. But it has a shadow in it. There is no relationship that does not, just as there is no person without shortcomings. In Buffy's case, one shortcoming is her lack of mercy, as Xander points out. Another is her peculiar naivete, that prevents her from seeing that Willow is gay until she (Willow) actually tells her.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 31, 2010 20:24:47 GMT -5
So Tara was a mother figure to Dawn, but not to Buffy?
Let me think. In Season 6, when Buffy learns that Spike can hit her (so she, Buffy, might be demon), and then becomes romantically involved with Spike, with whom does she share this? With Willow, whom we all think of as her best friend? With Giles, her wise counselor? With Xander, her generous guy-friend who knows girl stuff?
No, she shares this with Tara. Why is that? I think it is because she can't or won't show that much weakness to Xander, or Giles, or even Willow. She needs acceptance, forgiveness, mercy. She turns to Tara. That sounds pretty motherly to me.
Remember, in "I Only Have Eyes for You," Xander remarks, "The quality of mercy is not mercy is not Buffy." He's right. Buffy is compassionate until you cross her. She has no compassion for anyone who has sinned against her. In this, Willow, before season 7, is very much like her. Willow is quick to blame because she has never been blamed, and unable to forgive because she has never needed forgiveness. The only character in the Buffyverse who is really merciful is Angel, because he has hungered for mercy for more than a hundred years. Consider the difference between the way Willow treats Faith, and the way Angel treats her.
Therefore when Buffy needs that unconditional mother love, she goes to Tara.
The question is whether Tara was a mother figure to Willow, as well. I can't quite prove it textually, but I think Willow is attached to Tara because she (Willow) gets from her (Tara) an absolute acceptance that she can't get anywhere else. I think Tara understands Willow's sickness, and loves her either because or in spite of it.
Back to the original subject, there's something I don't follow here. The main idea of most of you seems to be that the Willow-Tara relationship was healthy, but Willow was not. What does that mean?
Wasn't Willow half of the relationship? Wasn't Willow fully engaged it, weren't all aspects of her personality in play, including the unhealthy parts? In her relationship with Oz, she may have managed to hide her deepest vulnerabilities; after all, he seems to have formed an idealized image of her long before he met her. In the relationship with Tara, which seems much more intimate and complete, all Willow's weaknesses must have been exposed.
When I suggest that the Willow-Tara relationship might not be healthy, I mean that Willow might have used her sickness to bind Tara to her, as in "I need you, so you are important," and Tara might have played along with that.
The fact that Tara demands that Willow be strong and quit the magic is a good sign.
All for now, I can't seem to wrap this up right.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 30, 2010 21:06:11 GMT -5
i got the impression that Cordelia's parents were also absent. For one thing, she never talks about her mother at all, or her father either except that he had money and lost it. Also, remember that Buffy-Cordelia scene where the latter says, "it's better than being alone." I think she's compensating, in the early going, for her lack of emotional support, which must include a pretty empty home life as I see it. I just don't see that she would be that nasty if she had good parents.
Me like Joyce too. Hey, I'll admit I'm of two minds about this. Part of me says, "it works, so leave it alone already." I'll even add a point in defense of Joyce being a good mother, one that nobody else has raised in this thread: the fact that Buffy has such a good mother makes it easier to believe that she is such a good person. Even I have a hard time seeing how Buffy could be so tender-hearted without a mother who was the same.
Now let me add this.
Jenny indeed does not come across as very maternal, but I think she had the potential for it. Certainly she was fond of Giles, and she was serious about her obligations to her people. And don't forget those great big eyes. She could've been made maternal with a little effort. And then imagine, for instance, Willow crying on Jenny's shoulder when Oz left. Willow didn't go to Joyce for comfort in that way because, despite all this talk about Joyce being a mother to all the Scoobies, she was after all Buffy's mother and not Willow's.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I think this business about Joyce being a mother figure for the whole Scoobie gang is, well, just wrong. It's a mirage, there's no evidence for it. I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's how I see it.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 28, 2010 23:03:25 GMT -5
I'm rewatching season 5 right now, I agree, Glory is the best bad. I think she actually represents a familiar though not often seen sort of person, the kind who lives in a bubble, physically present but not really there. Am I clear at all? How do you feel when you see a celebrity in the flesh? Imagine a movie star or a big politician walking through a neighborhood surrounded by aids and bodyguards. I've seen both Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama walk past me like that, and I may as well have been a cockroach hiding in the wall. But I've also been the one inside the bubble, in a small way. How do you feel when you're traveling in a poor country, maybe carrying a camera around your neck, the price of which would represent three months wages for the people around you? You do feel that you come from another dimension, that your life is elsewhere.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 28, 2010 21:52:17 GMT -5
Lots of thoughts here, I'm getting a a lot of ideas.
Here's one. As soon as Joyce died, Tara stepped into the mother role for both Buffy and Dawn. I suppose that reflects a particular gift that comes along with being Tara. It also sheds light on the Willow-Tara relationship.
Here's another. Suppose Joyce was not a sympathetic character, but Jenny Calendar had lived and had a romantic relationship with Giles. Jenny then could've been a mother figure to Xander and Willow (and presumably Oz, Anya, maybe even Tara and Cordelia) as well as Buffy. The surrogate family would've been fully functional for everybody, not just Buffy.
I think I can guess what some of you are going to say. I'm ready with my answers.
What Paul said, I'll have to go watch that again, I don't remember that. Was that a special feature or "audio over" commentary? But it seems to me that making Joyce sympathetic was not the only alternative to a "kids vs. adults" theme. Even without Joyce, we still have Giles, and a handful of teachers are also presented sympathetically, though none of them last long on screen except (drum roll) Jenny Calendar.
Look, I have a 25-year-old son. I'm a grown up if anybody is (an unsettled question). I'm the last person to endorse an "anti-grownup" position. But I get why kids need to reject their parents. I keep butting up against the limits of what I can or should do for my child.
A surrogate family relationship is an intermediate stage between living in a family and living alone, or starting a family of one's own. Buffy's surrogate family, as it seems to me, is an ideal that young people dream of but probably never attain.
Well, I'm a bit unfocused. I'm going to look for the Joss commentary right now.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 28, 2010 12:08:04 GMT -5
Just thought of something. Why didn't I think of it before?
Notice how motherly Tara is? Notice how she stepped into the mother role as soon as Joyce dies? She's suddenly a mother to both Buffy and Willow. Even in Season 6, Buffy trusts her in a way that she can't trust either Giles or Willow.
That's a clue to what she did for Willow, why Willow needed her so much. Oz was beautiful in his own way, but he could not be a mother. It probably never occurred to him that what Willow needed was mothering.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 28, 2010 12:03:03 GMT -5
Becoming damaged and shy, like Willow, is not the only way to deal with a lack of parenting. Cordelia found another way. At Hemery, Buffy was very much like Cordelia. She even says so somewhere.
Was Cordelia spoiled? In some ways, yes. Her parents spoiled her in every way that didn't involve actually caring about her.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 28, 2010 11:55:42 GMT -5
I just rewatched "The Body" (which I've always felt was overrated, another unpopular opinion). I understood that Christmas dinner scene not as a flashback, but as a dream for the future in an alternate reality, like the scene where the paramedics revive Joyce, who then thanks God Buffy arrived in time.
The surrogate family works fine for Buffy. She has a surrogate father and a surrogate brother and sister to go along with her biological mother. It doesn't work for anybody else in the same way.
Suppose someone had said to Joyce, "you are a surrogate mother to Xander and Willow." What do you suppose she would've said? Don't you think she would've been surprised? Wouldn't she say something to the effect that while Willow and Xander are OK, she doesn't care about either of them in anything like the way she cares about Buffy? She never tries to keep track of what's happening with Xander or Willow, as she would if they were children of her own. Should she? What do you think?
When Xander and Willow are in distress (as when Willow loses Oz), do either of them go to Joyce for guidance or reassurance, or does anyone suggest they should? Of course not. It wouldn't be appropriate within their relationship with Joyce.
I can't resist paraphrasing what Willow said to Xander, in Season 1 when he had a crush on Buffy: we have a great mother-child relationship here, except for the caring and sharing, and anyone knowing about it.
Now, let's step into an alternate universe.
Suppose Buffy had the mother she had in the movie, with whom no one would wish to share feelings, and Jenny Calendar were alive and in a romantic relationship with Giles. She would have no natural partiality to Buffy, but she would care about the Scoobies as a team, and about Buffy, Xander and Willow as members of it. I could then imagine a truly functional surrogate family that would offer the same support to everyone.
I submit that would've made for a better story.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 26, 2010 20:57:08 GMT -5
I wish you luck. I'm a bit surprised with this thread, though. From your picture on Facebook, I'd never imagine that you had a weight problem.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 26, 2010 20:51:53 GMT -5
I'm starting this thread at the suggestion of Skytteflickan88, who is watching me. I hope we can talk about issues in the Scooby gang, which I understand a surrogate family.
It grew out of a suggestion I made in the "unpopular opinions" thread. I have the definitely unpopular opinion that Joss & Co made a major error by making Joyce Summers a sympathetic character. While I love Joyce as she is, I think the story would've worked better if she had been an emotionally empty triivial pseudo-mom, as she was in the 1992 movie.
The reason? The surrogate family would then have been more meaningful from Buffy's perspective (which is the perspective of the show, remember, she's the viewpoint character).
Of course there are other questions/issues surrounding the surrogate family, that's only one. I hope people will bring up many issues.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 26, 2010 20:42:04 GMT -5
Remember that Kennedy caused Willow to "forget" Tara to some degree. There must've been some serious feeling on Willow's part, or that wouldn't have happened. Now ... on Kennedy's part, I always had a nagging doubt, didn't quite trust her. Did she go after Willow because she (Willow) was a powerful witch and a central figure in the Slayer gang? Was it an ego thing, a notch on the belt? There's a book called "Dark Congress" where Kennedy is portrayed as carrying on with another woman behind Willow's back.
But Willow and Tara. The difficulty for me is that I don't know just what Tara did for Willow. I can't shake the feeling that the need Tara satisfied, for Willow, wasn't a natural one, but stemmed from some unnatural injury. This relationship just looks too good to be true.
Tara soothed Willow in her pain, but then what?
I'm all over the map, I know. I think that in Seeing Red (that is the episode? I should check), we are supposed to understand that Willow and Tara are on the verge of happily ever after, all serious problems solved forever, or at least Willow thinks so. That is why Tara's death at this exact moment hurts so much.
Don't forget that Buffy and Xander have a similar reconciliation, though not at the same emotional level, also ruined by a bullet from Warren's gun.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 26, 2010 20:25:37 GMT -5
I see I touched a nerve there. I think I'll start a thread, as was suggested.
But I have one problem. Joyce was a mother-figure to all the Scoobies? Really? I just don't remember that. You'll have to give me some examples.
Was she a mother to Xander? That would be icky. Xander wanted Joyce to be the mother of his children, not himself (Restless). Besides, when did they ever talk?
Willow, Tara, Anya, Oz? Refresh my memories. Off hand, I don't remember Joyce speaking one-on-one with any of them.
Giles? That was problematical, after Band Candy. They always seemed nervous together.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 26, 2010 11:26:25 GMT -5
Here's my thinking about Joyce. If Joyce had seem as she was in the movie, like Willow's mother as you say, then Buffy would've had a fully dysfunctional family, just like Willow and Xander, and later (apparently) Faith and Wesley. We don't learn much about Giles' family, do we? Or Anya's?
The point is that all the main Scoobies would've been on the same footing. Buffy would've needed the gang in the same way that Willow and Xander do.
The Scoobies are a surrogate family, right? Especially for Buffy, since she's the viewpoint character. The fact that she had one good parent confuses the pattern.
Now the Scooby gang fails to be a "complete" surrogate family because there is no one to fill the mother role. That's why I think they should've let Jenny Calendar live. With a little tweaking, bring out a compassionate and empathetic side, and she would've been perfect.
Should I start a new thread about this? So many issues surrounding the surrogate family.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 26, 2010 11:02:50 GMT -5
I wish you luck. I don't have suggestions to offer right now, but I want you to know I'm tracking you. I should, you're tracking me. Curious. Was there something about me that made you want to "watch" me, or was it just time to choose a watchee? R
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 25, 2010 23:16:21 GMT -5
A thought, I might be completely off base ... you mentioned Kennedy.
I suppose Tara saw Willow's weakness and pain, and loved her either in spite of it (which would be healthy) or because of it (which might not be). I suppose Kennedy saw Willow's strength and admired it.
The fact that Willow could hook up with Kennedy may show that she's grown up, that she's stronger now? Willow can now do without the thing that only Tara gave her. That is not to say anything against Tara, or the Willow-Tara relationship.
Oz had no chance with Willow while Tara was there. If Tara had lived, Kennedy would've had no chance either.
Let's keep this up.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 25, 2010 22:25:43 GMT -5
Hi. I'm back, after three months on the road.
When I found this topic, passing my mouse over it, a bubble appeared that said "this one is definitely midwesternwatcher's fault." How did that happen?
It's true, I've never met another fan who took as dark a view of Willow as I do. Most of us seem willing to blame "too much magic" for all her problems and mistakes. I'm not.
I don't have any canned answers. I can talk around it, and maybe something good will come of what I say, but don't hold me to what I say. I might change my mind.
I suspect Willow has a very old injury that never healed, maybe relating to her mother, or even her father, who both seem to be emotionally absent. Xander gives no sign of ever being aware of it, so far as I can recall, nor does Buffy; both of them are curiously naive about that kind of thing. To reflect on somebody else's problems would be too much like passing judgment. I suspect Faith had some understanding of it, though.
Willow too emotionally dependent? Yes, I feel that. If she wasn't dependent on Oz in the same way, maybe that was because Oz never comforted Willow in the same way that Tara did. Tara had the right medicine to reach Willow's deepest pain. Oz soothed some of Willow's hurts, but not the one that hurt the worst.
After Tara dies, Willow must know that her friends are still with her, and that she could, someday, find another romantic relationship. But she fears that no one else could ever give her what Tara did.
Willow wants to be needed, and is afraid of not being needed. Remember what was in her head in "Earshot?" Perhaps Tara needed her, in just the way she wanted to be needed? (if that sentence isn't too convoluted ...)
Thanks for asking the question. I'll be checking this topic. I want to hear what other people say, and I'll add more if I think of something.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 25, 2010 19:44:16 GMT -5
I always try to rewatch in order of original broadcast so I don't lose the continuity, especially Buffy-Angel crossovers. Sometimes it takes me several days to watch an episode. I will stop, go online to check the Buffy wiki or make a post on this board, then go back until another question comes up. I'm always frustrated by how incomplete my knowledge is.
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Aug 25, 2010 19:16:47 GMT -5
I have all kinds of unpopular opinions. I'll list only a few: 1. Most of you will stop reading in shock and disgust when I say this, but ... I think the whole concept of canon is wrongheaded and we should abandon it. I don't think Joss Whedon is a genius, I don't give a damn what he says is or is not "canon," and I refuse to let anyone buy or sell space in my mind. 2. If anybody's still there ... I think Season 5 is the best of the seven, but Season 6 is also great. Seven 7 has some deep flaws, but the basic concept is sound. 3. As somebody else said, I hate whiny, love-sick Spike. In fact, I think the whole Spike character was mis-conceived. When I first saw Spike, I recognized him as the British equivalent of a certain thoroughly vile American type that I've met several times when I was in the Army. I was disgusted when they tried to make him likable. 4. I love Dawn. I especially love her when she's being "whiny," as some people say. 5. I don't care for Tara's character. The Willow-Tara relationship, sweet as it is, seems unhealthy to me. You should never get into a relationship that you can't live without. 6. I like the Joyce character, but they should've stuck with the Joyce from the movie, who hardly remembers her daughter's name. 7. The biggest mistake they ever made was letting Jenny Calendar die. Better stop. Heck, any one of these could be a thread.
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