Season 8 - Twilight Part 3: Issue 34

[Hallow Thorn]

Apr 12, 2010 19:28:23 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

So, anyone else excited by Georges Jeanty's strong hint, over in the latest Q&A, that we'll be seeing a lot more old faces besides Spike turning up as this season heads into the home stretch?

Wonder who he means? I can't think of many still-living characters from the show's past that haven't already turned up.

From the sound of it not Cordy... I can't see why not really... who could it be then? Hank? Anne? Dru?... Cordy still makes the most sense with working for the powers and all.. I just can't wait to see who comes back and why...

[The Night Lord]

^ It's possible for Cordy, but I know that Joss would only use Cordy if it was really necessary, like if her return would really mean something to the story, hence YW and ATF12, but I kinda don't see Cordy returning here. What would she be able to do? Why would she return?

[Hallow Thorn]

^---As much as I love Oz and Riley and happy they have come back their returns could have done without story wise. Cordelia’s return could be in form of Liaison with the ‘powers that be’ or even the universe it’s self (because of her link with the Powers and Angel/Buffy), or in a dream manifestation for Angel, or made a Fallen Angel after the Powers abandon mankind. I’m sure there are many things she could be connected too as the story comes to an end and then beginning for season 9. I would also like a evil fake Hank to come back..

[sire]

My bet is Joyce. With Heaven and hell and the whole farm all spilling into each other i can see Joyce making an appearance and perhaps smacking some sense into Buffy "...I hope you wore protection" hehe
Gosh, honestly who knows! No one predicted this was where the story was going, it could be Jesse risen from the ashes to poke fun at Xander and I wouldnt be that shocked at this point.

[cutiepatootie]

Sorry if this has already been said but...now that Faith's re-powered and obnoxious again, does that mean that all the Slayers will get their powers back?

[AndrewCrossett]

Apr 13, 2010 3:34:38 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

Apr 12, 2010 19:28:23 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

From the sound of it not Cordy... I can't see why not really... who could it be then? Hank? Anne? Dru?... Cordy still makes the most sense with working for the powers and all.. I just can't wait to see who comes back and why...

I suppose he could have just meant that all of the characters we've seen around this season are going to all gather together for the finale... Oz, Bay, Riley, Kennedy, Leah, Rowena... plus Spike. He might have just meant it will be an ensemble affair with not much spotlight time for any one supporting character.

We could also be talking about flashbacks, dreams, or even time travel... though I'm not sure why Cordy would be off the table if that's the case.

Apr 13, 2010 6:44:51 GMT -5 cutiepatootie said:

Sorry if this has already been said but...now that Faith's re-powered and obnoxious again, does that mean that all the Slayers will get their powers back?

I can't remember... did Satsu leave before Faith's powers came back?

Like I said, Faith (and Willow) may have gotten their powers back because something (FDW?) is fighting back against Twilight. I wouldn't be completely surprised if Faith, not Buffy, is the "last Slayer" who fights the Fraypocalypse and banishes magic. She doesn't look like the Slayer in "Fray," but Urkonn was just describing from hearsay a scene he hadn't actually been present for (as far as we know.)

[wenxina]

Satsu was still there when Faith got her powers back. But no mention of her own powers. Of course, she was a little preoccupied with trying to find Buffy at first, and then pissed off once she found her.

[AndrewCrossett]

With Faith, it seems to be more than just her regular Slayer powers coming back. She healed up instantly from a serious wound.

It could be that if the Scythe has been sharing Buffy's Slayer power with all the other Slayers, it might now start to project the new Super-Buffy powers to them, too... starting with Faith, because she's the most senior Slayer aside from Buffy.

A whole army of flying, invulnerable, Superman-powered Slayers fighting that invading army of demons might be something to see.

(But now that I've said it, it won't happen, of course.)

[neowhobaz]

Thnx for jinxing the cool ending Andrew lol jk.

I'm still oddly curious to Angel's motivation. I feel like alot of people sort of swept it to theside with the whole sex thing but I feel like that will be really important to how the season ends. Like Angel won't be responsible because he was urged on by the universe just like how Buff ywas urged on to have sex with Angel.

[Smashed]

You know what? If the "bad guys" wanted to distract the most powerful person on the "good side", they could re-animate Tara's corpse and make Willow have to fight her! D:

I love Tara, she was my favorite. That would be so sick!

[nmcil]

Apr 13, 2010 15:37:29 GMT -5 Smashed said:

You know what? If the "bad guys" wanted to distract the most powerful person on the "good side", they could re-animate Tara's corpse and make Willow have to fight her! D:

I love Tara, she was my favorite. That would be so sick!

You are evil - I loved Tara - and while it would be great to see her make an appearance, I would hate to have her in any Supreme Dark Side Force.

[Emmie]

Apr 10, 2010 18:24:26 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Apr 10, 2010 16:46:15 GMT -5 Emmie said:

THIS. I agree so hard. This issue wasn't supposed to be funny. Meltzer said he wanted the drawn out sex scene to be "sexy and beautiful". While the first few artful cutaways were close to accomplishing that, it completely got out of control and became hilarious while horrifying.

The sex scene was supposed to be beautiful. But it's supposed to be juxtaposed with the horrifying turn of events, as it gets wilder and wilder. They're basically driven into an actual frenzy, and as that happens, the world spins further and further into chaos. I don't think that juxtaposition was accidental.
So... as Giles said: "We need to be scared".

But my point still stands. The foreplay to sex was more "sexy and beautiful". The actual sex? Not so much with the sexy or beautiful. The wide-shot of them frakking in space (I just watched BSG hence the word usage) is hands-down hilarious. It made me spit with laughter. And I'm not the only who laughed. Didn't Paul say he and his friend couldn't stop laughing at this issue?

Wide-shots of various sexual positions are not "sexy and beautiful". This is a case of less is more. If they wanted this to be beautiful they needed to do something different. I'm a romantic sort. I loved Buffy/Angel's relationship way back when. I enjoyed him appearing in "Chosen" unlike pretty much every other Spuffy shipper I know. This? Didn't work.

And I think it's how the sex was presented. You don't get "sexy and beautiful" when you mix it with ridiculous. The ridiculous undercuts the emotion. I just saw 'How To Train Your Dragon' (which is very entertaining!):

SPOILER: Click to show

The movie has epic battles in the air between the protagonist, Hiccup, on his smaller dragon versus a ginormous dragon. Think David vs. Goliath (only Goliath is 10x bigger) if it were dragons battling in the air. But--the ginormous dragon was hidden in a cave and out of sight for much of the story. The suspense was built up to show how huge this creature was. And that it ate the smaller dragons too. And when the final air battle did happen. They went off into the clouds and the "camera" stayed close on Hiccup.

I also recently saw 'Percy Jackson and The Lightning Thief':

SPOILER: Click to show

And there's a final scene between Percy and his father, Poseidon. It shows the gigantic god bending down to speak to his son who's about the size of his nose. It's shown in wide shot. It looks utterly ridiculous. And Poseidon is supposed to be expressing heartfelt gratitude for missing out on Percy's childhood. Meanwhile I'm snorting with laughter. It's only when Poseidon morphs to human size that his words and their heartfelt meaning take effect.

As someone on another board said, this wasn't loving sex, it was rutting. Rutting being goaded on by a voyeuristic, sentient Universe apparently (Was Marian's orgies "sexy and beautiful" in True Blood?). And when it became Rutting in Space Sexxorz, it became hilarious.

I don't think that was the point. I really don't. So I maintain, the juxtaposition was hilarious and horrifying. If they wanted it to be hilarious and horrifying, then they accomplished that. But this issue didn't sell the beauty of sex.

And to deflect the usual 'ZOMG she loves Spuffy, her opinion doesn't count!' (because apparently I'm incapable of thinking objectively with my bias unlike everyone else), I also happen to love B/A back in the day. I pretty much 'ship who Buffy's with. It took me a while, but I've grown to enjoy Buffy/Satsu (something that threw me for a loop when I first joined fandom).

[AndrewCrossett]

Apr 13, 2010 19:23:28 GMT -5 Emmie said:

It took me a while, but I've grown to enjoy Buffy/Satsu (something that threw me for a loop when I first joined fandom).

Yay!

(Although now that it's clear there's zero chance of a romantic relationship there, I'm looking for different things out of that ship.)

I didn't find the Buffy/Angel sex beautiful OR funny, myself. I found it horrifying. There they are, rutting away while 100,000 people die with every thrust and grunt. It was like the anti-matter, photographic negative version of what love and sex should be.

And I say this as a person who's never had any problem with Bangel before.

[wenxina]

Em. I respect your opinion. But I never got hilarious. So, it comes down to personal opinion. Me, I found the sex to be quite well-rendered, and as I said, the intensity build-up echoed the narrative progression. Again, personal opinion.
And besides, sex is sex. There's the romanticized notion of "making love", and there's "rutting/frakking/etc" but really, it's still sex. And either way, it can be beautiful. The beauty, to me, lies in the honesty of the human experience. If it's love, great. If it's just the need to connect, that's fine to me too. Since both are very real things.

Personally, I don't think this issue set out to define the beauty of sex. I thought it started that way, barring hang-ups about Angel being Twilight. It was intimate, and the extreme close-ups were like a strobing gestalt of the act. But once the world started going to hell, I immediately switched modes. It became almost ironic, and definitely more than a little oxymoronic that sex would become a destructive force, instead of the usual creative one (not talking about positions here... though, some of those were rather innovative). Then again, sex did bring down a house once... so perhaps the notion of destructive sex isn't new to the 'verse.

And no, I don't believe you to be a rabid shipper one way or another.

[angeluffy]

If people will reappear... I'm waiting a JJ appearing. Jenny and Joice. Jenny had a history with Angel. Joice was Buffy's mother. I can't think of anyone else to knock some sense into Angel and Buffy, respectively.

[Emmie]

Xi, I think the issue is telling a complex story. What's confusing me is interviews emphasizing the sex as positive.

I'm gonna be repetitive here, but the sexual positions might have been well enough rendered. It's the context that makes it fall into the ridiculous for me--the wide shot of them frakking in space. However well-rendered it is, there's two superbeings having sex in space with a dialogue bubble to make the joke that there's no sound in space. That? Is funny. Because it's ridiculous.

I think by the time the world started quaking and falling apart, the sex scenes were doing gratuitous leaps of Switch Positions In Every Panel! and In Space Sex Zomg! The emotional register of the sex, when they were actually having sex, was lost. The build-up to them having sex, the foreplay, that was sexy enough.

The deflection wasn't meant to imply you'd discount my opinion, Xi, but more a general defensiveness. And yes, I've been getting discounted because of *glances down* my banner recently.

Oh, and apparently someone docked my karma. ...yay?


Andrew, at this point I'm just so happy with Satsu's characterization in the last issue. I loved her reaction. It was simple, but perfect.

[wenxina]

I'm sorry you feel like you've been discounted, but your calling what I deemed to be well-done "ridiculous" slights my opinion.
We're all a fandom here, and we have different views on things.
I've never slighted you, and have always found your views cogent, and well-argued, despite not always agreeing with them.

Again, once the sex got to the stratosphere, I had already moved on from "hot", to being disturbed. But that's why the entire thing worked for me. It went from hot, to disturbing, to kinda funny at times (the "no sound in vacuum" nod, which all sci-fi nerds can appreciate), to downright crazy. But that's what the show's always been to me. Watching Buffy and Spike bring down a house, I went through the same repertoire of emotions. First, it was "finally, the sexual tension is addressed for real". But then, I realized that she was shagging a killer, who in the past has tried to kill not just her multiple times, but also her friends, and on one occasion, her mother too. And then with the house crumbling, I pretty much went to the incredulous place. BUT... I recognized the drama of the scene, and the narrative function it served, and I was okay with it. Because it pushed the boundaries of what love, sex, need, etc meant. And simply because it was daring enough to take the PC-ness out of sex. Personally, I believe that PC-ness has no place in sex. Respect, yes, but to hold back because of PC-ness is rather like shortchanging yourself.

As for the Buffy/Angel sexpicapades (yes, I'm coining the amalgamation of three words), I didn't get panel-to-panel repertoire. In fact, studying the panels, most of them are different shots of the same position. Sequential art doesn't have the luxury of a continuous flow of action. And, from what I've read elsewhere, that seems to be a problem for some... that the motion isn't continuous and therefore, sometimes, the reader gets stuck mid-panel. I'm not suggesting that you suffer from that. I'm just saying that while it may seem like choppy motion to you, it really didn't to me. As I said before, I thought that the strobing nature of some of the extreme close-ups worked really well, evoking the very first sexual encounter between the two.

To address your statement about the interviews, I agree that some of it seems rather sensationalistic. But that said, I also appreciate that the creative staff isn't jamming down authorial intent and how to properly read a scene. For better or worse, they're allowing readers to respond naturally, and I'm okay with that.

ETA: This whole docking karma thing gets tiresome. People... we've been over this before. If you don't like a post, or disagree, do so by posting a well-reasoned post as to why you dispute the offending post. Or at least just use the "dislike" function, since it's at least not anonymous. Anonymous sniping of other people's karma does seem rather cowardly, and we have means of telling who did it, should it become habitual. That's fair warning enough, I think.

[Emmie]

Xi, no I'm not calling your opinion ridiculous. I'm calling the tone of the scene ridiculous. Just as you're allowed to say something is well done, I'm allowed to say something is not well done. So no, I'm not slighting you. I'm expressing how I read the scene.

And I get to do that. And if you feel slighted, then I think you're overreaching in how you expect people to express their opinions. People go to movies all the time, love them, then go read reviews that hate them. People disagree. People have subjective views of art.

When I call it ridiculous, I do so with express intent. I think they went over-the-top, that's it's bordering on parody and farce. You don't. We disagree. You get to say, "It's serious and well done!" I get to say, "It's ridiculous, bordering on farce!"

We're each doing the same thing. Pointing at the art and rendering an opinion. I have not rendered an opinion of your judgment or logic, but rather shared my view of the text.

The problem is if we play by the rules you've laid down, then you've slighted my opinion by taking the scene seriously. I personally don't think you have slighted me. You just read it differently. My reaction remains that I felt it was rendered in a manner that led it to be ridiculous. That's my opinion and yooooooooou can't take the skyyyyyyyy from meeeeeeeee.




*

I didn't say the motion was choppy, actually. But yes, they do switch positions a lot. In mid-air. Four times, I believe. (please don't make me list all the different positions...)

[wenxina]

Em, I was making a case about how feeling slighted can go both ways. In my haste, my statement wasn't phrased correctly. What I meant to say was "your calling what I deemed to be well-done "ridiculous" can be construed as slighting my opinion". Because my first reaction was defensiveness. And yes, I understand that an exchange of opinion shouldn't be taken personally, but certain words have a little more potency than others. "Ridiculous" being one such word. I know that in your case, it's not so much a difference in opinion, but rather attacks of a more personal kind that triggered your defensiveness.
And hey, I don't want the sky. Keep it. Rather have space sex anyway... way cooler.

ETA: I will admit to some residual defensiveness on my part too, since the general vibe I've been getting from the discussion of the past 2 issues over on other boards/forums has been one of condescension by those who dislike the issues. You're not included in this grouping, but there are people who tend to state things like "I don't see how anyone in their right mind..." and that does carry a personal edge to it.

RE: switching positions... at the speed they were going, I'm not surprised they changed a few times. But it's not like there was a rapid succession of changes on the same page. It was spread over the course of the story, interspersed with the world going nuts.

[CowboyGuy]

After reading this a few times, I find it quite interesting that Giles can speak of "The Universe" changing, etc. But he also said that this event was a first in the "Omniverse".

What's the diff?! Haha.

Seems like Buffy enjoyed the sex, but I wager that she will not want to be separated from the Scoobies for very long.