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Post by Rebecca on Jan 13, 2010 20:21:40 GMT -5
I'm truly not mad at Scott... who could be? Weirdos!
I'm just having a REALLY difficult time accepting this. I hope it is written well (as always) but Twilight!Angel was so misogynistic to Buffy in A Beautiful Sunset, I know I had an immediate flashback of Caleb.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 13, 2010 21:50:39 GMT -5
"But again, it's a question of leaving everything that IDW is doing – and I'm not aware of everything they're doing, and I haven't read a lot of the stuff – and giving just enough [on our end] so it'll jibe with whatever they're doing."
Heh. Thus endeth the canon debate about the current IDW comics.
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Post by birdandbear on Jan 14, 2010 3:08:15 GMT -5
Wow. I disappear for awhile and come back to find this.... Personally, I'm quite entertained by it all. I'm always interested when the internets go berserk over my favorite fandom. And I realize that some people are very upset, and I don't mean to belittle anyone's opinion, but this revelation has breathed a whole new life into BS8 for me. Not that I was getting bored or anything, but now I'm insanely hyped about the rest of the season. I think this may end up being the biggest, most heartbreaking climax of any season of Buffy, and that's saying quite a bit. Like many people have said, the story isn't that Twilight is Angel, but why Angel is Twilight. Whatever his motivations, I'll never believe he's evil. He's playing for very high stakes indeed, to do the things he's done, and to hurt Buffy the way he has. And finding out why is going to be, I suspect, awful in the extreme. I also wanted to add my support to the men behind the curtains on either side. I think that for such a disastrous accident, it's been handled really well by all involved (with the exception of a certain writer, and I get where he was coming from too. Mostly.) I really appreciate Scott Allie's grace under pressure, attempting to reassure the fans that things would be worked out. I appreciate Joss taking time out of his busy schedule to do the same thing, conducting a lengthy interview with CBR, and defending Scott from the angry mob. And I gotta say, I've just become a real fan of Chris Ryall after reading his Q&A session over at Whedonesque. What a patient, imperturbable gentleman. I have faith in all of them that things will work out, and our beloved 'verse will be bigger and better for it. I intend to keep reading all the storylines, and probably buying both covers of all issues (unless IDW starts publishing The Adventures of Betta George and Shark Head Guy....then I might have to cut back - this is already an expensive obsession ) I can't wait to see what happens. I didn't make it to the comic book store today, but I'm really excited about both issues. A long conversation between Xander and Buffy, written by Joss, sounds wonderful. And Willingham's first foray into the Angelverse wasn't half bad, and from the sound of it his plans are ambitious. I want a poster sized frameable print of that Chen cover. Geez it's gorgeous. And lastly - Spike in Buffy!!!
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Jan 14, 2010 4:10:32 GMT -5
Am I the only one who's really enjoying all this scandal? I'm loving it! And I'm spending way too much time wallowing in it ...
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Post by wenxina on Jan 15, 2010 17:07:07 GMT -5
Just in case anyone was waiting for Part 3 of Joss' interview with CBR, it's actually about Dollhouse, and the interview link has been posted on the Dollhouse board. CLICK HERE to read it, and comment.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
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Post by Paul on Jan 15, 2010 17:23:45 GMT -5
"But again, it's a question of leaving everything that IDW is doing – and I'm not aware of everything they're doing, and I haven't read a lot of the stuff – and giving just enough [on our end] so it'll jibe with whatever they're doing." Heh. Thus endeth the canon debate about the current IDW comics. Not really. The fact that he's making an effort (small effort, but still) to work around the Angel book indicates that he considers it a relevant part of Buffyverse. If it wasn't canon at all, he wouldn't care if it was contradicted. I still don't think the Angel series is 100% canon, but it does hold some canonical weight. Moreso than say... Queen of the Slayers ever did. Oh yeah, I'm pouring fuel on that fire again! Hahaha. The canon debate is still very messy and unresolved.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 15, 2010 17:51:10 GMT -5
I guess it comes down to whether you believe Joss or Fox is the arbiter of "canon."
Because I don't see any way to define something as canon if Joss doesn't even read it.
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Post by gunslingerdante on Jan 16, 2010 1:40:17 GMT -5
Well If After the Fall is at least Cannon. I hope we get more back story and find out why Angel became Twilight you know? I want to know what became of Conner, Gunn, Spike etc...
When I first heard about this I was very upset. Angel has been one of my fav characters for a long time. Then to find out about this, was like a stake to the heart. But now I think it's cool. To think that, this whole time Angel as been involved in the Buffy comics is awsome. And I think in the end it will make him an even more interresting character. So as a Angel fan I am not in panic mode. I just what to know what the heck happend to make him this way. As for the rest of the IDW comics I'll still read them. Heck Maybe they will end up being cannon after all and tell how and why Angel became Twilight. Maybe that's how the IDW books will eventuly end?
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Beaumonde
Ensouled Vampire
Stop pulling my face towards your face.[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,810
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Post by Beaumonde on Jan 16, 2010 11:31:27 GMT -5
Not really. The fact that he's making an effort (small effort, but still) to work around the Angel book indicates that he considers it a relevant part of Buffyverse. If it wasn't canon at all, he wouldn't care if it was contradicted. I thought they were just being respectful to IDW and Bill. If their stories started to move away from what was actually happening in the Buffyverse fans would start to enjoy the Angel comics less and less, and could stop reading (or atleast not consider them a top priority). But I've only read After The Fall so I have no idea on the quality of the stories or anything.
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Jan 18, 2010 7:32:49 GMT -5
I'm with those who have pity for Bill here. He's planning a series of comics which are a big deal for him, and then with absolutely no consultation with him, Joss and Scott swoop in and tell the media that they are going to be collaborating with him to make sure plots mesh. If I were Bill, I'd be fuming.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 18, 2010 11:50:13 GMT -5
I'm with those who have pity for Bill here. He's planning a series of comics which are a big deal for him, and then with absolutely no consultation with him, Joss and Scott swoop in and tell the media that they are going to be collaborating with him to make sure plots mesh. If I were Bill, I'd be fuming. I don't think anyone won't grant Bill his right to fume. BUT, he doesn't dictate where the ANGEL franchise goes. At the moment, it seems that the editors hear pitches, pick the best one, and go from there. And if Scott had spoken to Ryall, and Ryall was cool with it, then Bill again, doesn't really get a say. He gets to put out the best work he can, and it's entirely his choice whether or not to partake in bridging the gap. He's decided not to. What Bill shouldn't have done - and I'm pretty sure that Chris Ryall has gone on record saying that he disapproved of what Bill did, and that it will NEVER happen again - is send that hissy e-mail to CBR and throwing his baby tantrum to shit all over the affair, just as it was settling down. All it did, was make him look childish, potentially hurt IDW (even though he claimed very clearly that it was by his own accord, and in no way represented IDW's opinion at all), and quite possibly complicate matters of continuity (if his run becomes long-term, and he continues on his angry bull stampede). So while I understand Bill's right to fume, and quite frankly, will not be surprised if IDW in general was upset too (which apparently, they aren't coz they're cool and all that), the public debacle was ill-advised, and garners no additional sympathy from me.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 18, 2010 12:18:39 GMT -5
I think the biggest part of Willingham's statement that upset Chris Ryall is that he clearly stated that Joss was 100% uninvolved in the Angel comics now, making it quite clear they're not canon in the way most of us define that term.
Ryall knows the effect canonicity (or the perception thereof) has on sales, and he's been trying hard to continue the impression (somewhat deceptively at times, IMO) that the IDW series is canon. Both Willingham's statements and Joss's interview with CBR make it clear that's not the case.
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Post by Emmie on Jan 18, 2010 12:32:42 GMT -5
I think the biggest part of Willingham's statement that upset Chris Ryall is that he clearly stated that Joss was 100% uninvolved in the Angel comics now, making it quite clear they're not canon in the way most of us define that term. Yep. That line was what finally allowed to close the door on the canon debate. I know some people still think of them as canon, but by their definition, everything that was ever published over at Dark Horse before Season 8 is also canon. Wishing doesn't make it so. Ryall knows the effect canonicity (or the perception thereof) has on sales, and he's been trying hard to continue the impression (somewhat deceptively at times, IMO) that the IDW series is canon. Both Willingham's statements and Joss's interview with CBR make it clear that's not the case. I dunno if I'd say he does it deceptively. In his recent Q&A with Whedonesque he straight-up said the IDW ANGEL comics are canon. I think it's that he doesn't get how canon works in the Buffyverse. Canon has nothing to do with owning a license.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
Posts: 210
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Post by Marcos on Jan 18, 2010 13:27:54 GMT -5
I think the biggest part of Willingham's statement that upset Chris Ryall is that he clearly stated that Joss was 100% uninvolved in the Angel comics now, making it quite clear they're not canon in the way most of us define that term. Yep. That line was what finally allowed to close the door on the canon debate. I know some people still think of them as canon, but by their definition, everything that was ever published over at Dark Horse before Season 8 is also canon. Wishing doesn't make it so. Ryall knows the effect canonicity (or the perception thereof) has on sales, and he's been trying hard to continue the impression (somewhat deceptively at times, IMO) that the IDW series is canon. Both Willingham's statements and Joss's interview with CBR make it clear that's not the case. I dunno if I'd say he does it deceptively. In his recent Q&A with Whedonesque he straight-up said the IDW ANGEL comics are canon. I think it's that he doesn't get how canon works in the Buffyverse. Canon has nothing to do with owning a license. Oh this canon debate is just endless, isn't it? I was also intrigued by this, 'cause things got really blurred lately. Before Twangel (is that the term, Andrew?), I was pretty sure that IDW was just normal expanded universe and that if Joss made something with the characters in the future, they wouldn't have traces of the experiences they went through in IDW EU. And now Chris and Bryan and all the "jibe" talk made everyone rethink it. But after those interviews, it's pretty clear that what Joss is doing is trying not to mess with IDW. I mean, he's not doing Angel stories anymore, so if Angel fans have ONLY the IDW series, he woud be quite a prick to go and contradict them all and say "hey, those stories are totally useless. Forget everything about them". Joss is giving IDW a chance to catch up with HIS canon universe. He's not legitimizing it, 'cause he's not even reading it. He cares about the fans, and cares about IDW's good work, and doesn't want to step in anybody's toes. But we can guess that he doesn't care about continuity of those books. Whatever experiences and growth and development the characters have in the IDW comics (and they must have such changes, because that's what good narrative is made of) probably won't be take in consideration once Joss writes them again. And that's why canon matters, and that's why a single creative force is necessary. Having "canon" defined is the only way we can see those characters as "real people", because real people's actions and choices are always defined by their experiences, and EVERY experience must count. It's just nonsense if IDW Spike, for example, is depressed and ashamed of his past actions and then when he shows up in Buffy he is the same Spike that we last saw in After the Fall. But we have to wait and see how things will play out. But to "wish" that IDW stuff is canon, and to try to see them that way, is risky 'cause you probably will end up with some nonsensical narrative that don't really work as a whole. And that goes for every franchise with expanded universes, like star wars, star trek, etc. I mean, just my opinion. ;D
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 18, 2010 13:39:00 GMT -5
Yeah... Ryall went for a joking tone in his post, and that's getting taken out of context in places. He said:
Which was obviously joking around, but I've seen it reported elsewhere that "Joss said anything IDW does is canon!"
Chris Ryall also said:
Actually, Joss does take a more active interest in what people see as canon or not, and he has tapped that scepter before (the Buffy: Origin comic comes to mind). But he's in an awkward diplomatic position. He doesn't want to cut IDW's sales in half by saying "these comics aren't canon," but he's also not about to take Willingham's or whomever's stories as gospel when he's telling his own stories... you won't see Joss having Angel refer to that time he was kidnapped by a shady corporation and had his blood harvested as immortality serum, for instance.
See, here he's claiming that the current comics are canon because Betta George is in them, and he was a canonical character in After the Fall. By the same reasoning, anything is canonical by virtue of having canonical characters in them. That would include every piece of Buffy literature ever created, including fanfic.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
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Post by Paul on Jan 18, 2010 14:04:36 GMT -5
I dunno... I don't think anything IDW has done is really canon except After the Fall. Yet I find myself not really caring about that because I do enjoy the books. Even though the book itself doesn't have official canonical status, I'm happy to consider the events in them as having happened within the Buffyverse. And Joss seems happy enough for the fans to do so. See, here he's claiming that the current comics are canon because Betta George is in them, and he was a canonical character in After the Fall. By the same reasoning, anything is canonical by virtue of having canonical characters in them. That would include every piece of Buffy literature ever created, including fanfic. Except that George originated in the non-canon Asylum and Shadow Puppets, which actually influenced canon; George and Spike's relationship in AtF stems directly from those stories, and is continued (by the same writer) back into non-canon. It's like only counting the second film of a trilogy canon. Fan fiction and random literature doesn't usually bleed into canon like that, it's a grey area.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 18, 2010 14:22:05 GMT -5
I dunno... I don't think anything IDW has done is really canon except After the Fall. Yet I find myself not really caring about that because I do enjoy the books. Even though the book itself doesn't have official canonical status, I'm happy to consider the events in them as having happened within the Buffyverse. And Joss seems happy enough for the fans to do so. "Canon" was never meant to be a measure of quality. Anyone is of course free to imagine that the events in non-canonical books really happened... just not to expect that Joss, or the rest of fandom, will do the same. Except that George originated in the non-canon Asylum and Shadow Puppets, which actually influenced canon; George and Spike's relationship in AtF stems directly from those stories, and is continued (by the same writer) back into non-canon. It's like only counting the second film of a trilogy canon. Brian wrote Asylum and Shadow Puppets without Joss's input. However, you could make the inference that, since Joss specifically asked Brian to incorporate George into AtF (along with the fact of his past relationship with Spike), that Joss was tacitly granting canon status to at least Asylum. I won't argue too hard with people who want to make that case. I will argue with people who take that to mean that Betta George now magically carries canonicity with him wherever he goes...
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
Posts: 210
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Post by Marcos on Jan 18, 2010 19:32:02 GMT -5
Exactly, and don't expect to have solid narrative coherence once you include it among canon material. But well, what really matters is if the fan is happy. Happiness must be the priority.
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sire
Potential Slayer
Glad to see you've found the softer side of Sears[Mo0:0]
Posts: 143
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Post by sire on Jan 19, 2010 10:34:19 GMT -5
how long is it that BTVS season 8 takes place after Angel;ATF? I estimated around a year and a half? That gives IDW plenty of time to legitimise their stories if they wanted to fit them into canon
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Post by angeliclestat on Jan 19, 2010 10:56:25 GMT -5
I had a thought recently, but wasnt sure where to put it cos it wasn't very important. But all this Twilight stuff really puts into perspective Scott Allie's snarkiness a while back regarding IDW's Angel.
I always got the impression that he felt threatened by Angel at IDW (IMO of course), and now knowing what we do I can understand that. By Angel being at IDW (and an ongoing story)there was always going to be trouble with him being Twilight.
Also it backs up my feelings that if Angel was at Dark Horse there would have been no 'Season 6' or After the Fall, because Joss would have been saving Angel for Twilight.Which is another of the (many) reasons why I am glad Angel is at IDW, because no matter what happens in Buffy, we are still going to get stories told in the Angelverse, with the Fang Gang. Where he belongs:)
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