Cordelia- 'Apocalypse Now-ish'

[N.D.U.O]

I'm wondering when Cordelia tells Angel that she can't be with him because he was so evil. What is real Cordy or Evil Cordy. I always thought evil, because to me one of the things that made Cordy different from Buffy was that she accepted Angel's past and even later in 'You're Welcome', Cordy doesn't separate herself from him even with the full knowledge of his past.

Yet - a lot of people think it's real Cordy. So... um.. I'm wondering why?

[willowsummers]

I lean more towards the fact that it's bad Cordy because it doesn't seem like something she'd do. She knew Angel had been bad the whole time. She had preached to everyone about how evil she'd seen him be when he terrorized Sunnydale. It wasn't part of Jasmine's or the Senior Partners plans for her to get with Angel. She had to do what she had to do with Connor.

[Hallow Thorn]

Jasmine started possessing Cordelia in 'Spin the Bottle' so it was not her but Jasmine.

[Skytteflickan88]

We can't know exactly when the spell/possession(we don't know if Jasmine controlled her, or there was a spell on her, just making her want Jasmine to be born). We know that something happened when she got her memories back, and it could be the spell working. Or The Beast simply opened hsi eyes. Or Lorne meant "Things started to go downhill after that" without saying "This is when Cordy went bad".

We can't know, only guess how much of Cordelia there were in season 4, and how the changes progressed.

I actually think that it could be good Cordy that said that to Angel. I mean, come on, you see someone kill and torture and rape, you would probably not be able to be with them after that

I can't remember the conversation very well tough, and I'm too lazy to check, so there might have been something in there that showed it wasn't Cordelia, other than that she rejected him for what he had done in the past. I honestly couldn't tell, since I'm not a huge Cordelia fan and never really bothered to get to know her as a character.

Oh what the hell. *googling*

You know what, I most have misunderstood. I'm reading the script for Spin The Bottle, and she doesn't tell him in that scene why she left, just that she remembered "it" all, but she doesn't say what "it". I assume that in Spin The Bottle, she meant her entire life, not just the Angelus stuff, that she needed to think about. But she does mention the Angelus stuff in a later episode, how she saw it all, doesn't she?

However, my point still stands. Even good Cordy could have been too replused by Angel's past to be with him. Good Cordy might even have stopped working for Angel completely. She might love him, but honestly, how many people would have the strength? Probably evil possessed/controlled people, like Cordy were. If she had been good Cordy after Spin The Bottle, she might have needed to be away from Angel for a longer time.

[Hallow Thorn]

Wouldn't Jasmine drive Cordy and Angel away to get Connor and Cordy closer together so "she can give birth to herself" all be part of her plan to make sure the rest of the Tro-Clon comes to pass like she when she made Fred and Lorne switch dimensions, using Lorne to use his spell necessary to "activate" Jasmine in amnesiac Cordelia.

[willowsummers]

Maybe Cordelia was given the chance to be a higher power so she could see those things. She could come back, vulnerable, with no memory, get close to Connor, then remember those things about Angel... it could have been part of the plan to get Jasmine born.

[Wyndam]

Feb 17, 2010 15:37:45 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

Jasmine started possessing Cordelia in 'Spin the Bottle' so it was not her but Jasmine.

^ This. Cordy lost control of her body as soon as Lorne touched her tongue with the magic mojo.

[monkeywrench]

Feb 17, 2010 16:45:13 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

Feb 17, 2010 15:37:45 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

Jasmine started possessing Cordelia in 'Spin the Bottle' so it was not her but Jasmine.

^ This. Cordy lost control of her body as soon as Lorne touched her tongue with the magic mojo.

Agreed. I can't remember what episode they said this in, but when Cordy had no memory, she was her but couldn't remember herself. But then when Lorne did the magic thing, it awakened Jasmine and from then on it was Jasmine running the show. I thought it was made pretty clear.

[Skytteflickan88]

Feb 17, 2010 16:18:13 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

Wouldn't Jasmine drive Cordy and Angel away to get Connor and Cordy closer together so "she can give birth to herself" all be part of her plan to make sure the rest of the Tro-Clon comes to pass like she when she made Fred and Lorne switch dimensions, using Lorne to use his spell necessary to "activate" Jasmine in amnesiac Cordelia.

Isn't that what she did? She made sure to make a connection with Connor, while still having Angel near, to be able to control him (since he's a serious player).

It wouldn't surprise me if you're right tough, and she did the whole switch thing to be able to use Lorne for the spell in Spin The Bottle.

Feb 17, 2010 16:34:42 GMT -5 willowsummers said:

Maybe Cordelia was given the chance to be a higher power so she could see those things. She could come back, vulnerable, with no memory, get close to Connor, then remember those things about Angel... it could have been part of the plan to get Jasmine born.

Seems likely. I wouldn't be surprised if she lost control over her free will even before the higher being phase, maybe even as soon as she became part demon. Or maybe those steps, becoming a demon, becoming a higher power, remembering, where all part of the spell, just different activation steps.

I wonder if Cordy was even aware of the change., from good to evil(I can't remember how she acted exactly). I kinda doubt the spell was just switched on in Spin The Bottle, so maybe she started to lose focus, want different evil-Goddess-y things more and more, until there was almost nothing left of Cordelia and/or Cordelia's former intentions, and it happened a little at a time, to small changes for even her to notice.

Like seen in Expecting: she was still Cordelia, but her need to be a mother took over with the spell. Not a possession, just a change of "wants". Kind of like a love spell. Jasmine might just have been watching, doing nothing, letting the spell do it's thing.

[The Night Lord]

From what I understand, we had normal Cordy until the end of 'Spin the Bottle', which afterwards she became Jasmine through Lorne's spell. Also, something's that bothered me from 'Spin the Bottle'. Cordelia offers Connor 'a reward' if he kills Angel. I don't know if it's just me, but that there didn't seem like seventeen-year-old Cordelia

[jason321]

The fact that conversations like this even exist 6 years after the series ended pretty much sum up why I retroactively hate Angel S4. It should be clearly obvious where Cordy is possessed and when she isn't, but its not. They just did not leave any hints about Cordy possessed until a couple of episodes before the Evil! Cordy reveal and by then Cordy's character assassination was complete. My brother (who didn't watch this series until last year) told me that he thinks they intentionally destroyed her so that ppl wouldn't miss her in S5 and I'm now inclined to believe that because it makes the most sense in retrospect (hence my lack of sympathy of the show getting canceled in the end).

[henzINNIT]

It looked a lot like everyone was pissed off with the character by season 4, including Charisma.

[Skytteflickan88]

Feb 19, 2010 20:16:15 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

From what I understand, we had normal Cordy until the end of 'Spin the Bottle', which afterwards she became Jasmine through Lorne's spell. Also, something's that bothered me from 'Spin the Bottle'. Cordelia offers Connor 'a reward' if he kills Angel. I don't know if it's just me, but that there didn't seem like seventeen-year-old Cordelia

To me that's so Cordy. Manipulating boys to do her bidding.

Unless you mean the killing part? Because she did fear for her life, so to me that makes sense too.

[jason321]

Feb 20, 2010 8:30:22 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

It looked a lot like everyone was pissed off with the character by season 4, including Charisma.

She was fine until she got back from vacation with Groo. From then on her character didnt matter and was just a slave a to a plot arc tho. And it turned out that that plot sucked.

[The Night Lord]

Feb 20, 2010 8:59:47 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Feb 19, 2010 20:16:15 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

From what I understand, we had normal Cordy until the end of 'Spin the Bottle', which afterwards she became Jasmine through Lorne's spell. Also, something's that bothered me from 'Spin the Bottle'. Cordelia offers Connor 'a reward' if he kills Angel. I don't know if it's just me, but that there didn't seem like seventeen-year-old Cordelia

To me that's so Cordy. Manipulating boys to do her bidding.

Unless you mean the killing part? Because she did fear for her life, so to me that makes sense too.

I meant the 'reward', which was sex...I think

[Hallow Thorn]

Feb 22, 2010 1:06:43 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Feb 20, 2010 8:59:47 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

To me that's so Cordy. Manipulating boys to do her bidding.

Unless you mean the killing part? Because she did fear for her life, so to me that makes sense too.

I meant the 'reward', which was sex...I think

She could just been a date or a kiss but in the end I just saw it as her manipulating him to save her live.

[martodd]

I think that Cordy really went evil when Jasmine got her memories back. Old Cordy always knew what Angel did, she saw him doing to Buffy. But it didn’t matter to her, since she wanted to help him.
Jasmine told him that, so she could separate Angel and Cordy in order to get Connor. Her endgame was to give birth to herself, so she desperately needed Cordy and Connor together and Angel was on the way.

[The Girl In Question]

Anybody else more grossed out by the thought of Jasmine having sex with Connor than with Cordy having sex with him? I just finished a season 4 re-watch and thought about that. That shiz is nasty.

[henzINNIT]

Feb 21, 2010 3:04:18 GMT -5 jason321 said:

Feb 20, 2010 8:30:22 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

It looked a lot like everyone was pissed off with the character by season 4, including Charisma.

She was fine until she got back from vacation with Groo. From then on her character didnt matter and was just a slave a to a plot arc tho. And it turned out that that plot sucked.

^^^ Yup, exactly.

As for the thread question... Muddy writing makes it unclear. You could say that Jasmine had control after Lorne's magic in "Spin the Bottle" but there are a few things that don't mesh. After Jas-delia bones Connor she wakes up and in total privacy reacts like "ooooohhh deary what have I done?" which makes no sense at all. I guess you could argue that there is a little bit of a struggle between Cordy and Jasmine for the first couple of episodes before the driver's seat is fully established.

[Paul]

Feb 20, 2010 8:30:22 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

It looked a lot like everyone was pissed off with the character by season 4, including Charisma.

Charisma loved her character. She was frustrated with the season four story because it was "creepy" and didn't want to be killed off in season five, but she wasn't pissed off at Cordelia herself. I think Joss was probably tired of the character, but Charisma certainly wasn't.

As for the possession thing, I think it's fairly obvious in retrospect that Jasmine takes over at the end of "Spin the Bottle". Honestly, people are way too harsh on season four. Yes, Cordelia was wasted and that's sad, but it was still a f***ing brilliant season.