Asexual friendships & BtVS's progressivism

[tkts]

This is something I just started thinking about, and I'm curious whether anyone thinks it makes sense.

BtVS gets a lot of praise, rightly, for advancing the realistic portrayal of gay relationships on TV and treating gay characters' sexuality with dignity. But it occurred to me that the ways in which BtVS was progressive had to do not just with the portrayal of relationships like Willow and Tara's, but also with the platonic same-sex friendships of the gay characters.

In the debate that's going on right now over "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," you sometimes hear people say things like "I wouldn't want to share sleeping quarters with someone who's attracted to me." Or "I don't want to serve with some guy who's going to be ogling me in the shower." Outside the military arena, there's the paranoia about allowing gay men to serve in roles like Scoutmaster, as if any gay man who's around boys probably just wants to have sex with them. There seems to be a perception, among some people, that gay equals sex-crazed, and that being gay means you have the uncontrollable urge to jump the bones of every single member of the same sex you meet.

Buffy, on the other hand, showed many examples of gay characters having close bonds with members of the same sex for whom they had no sexual desire whatsoever. Willow would probably find the idea of making out with Buffy to be extremely off-putting. Tara shares a strong and completely asexual bond with Dawn.

Maybe it's just a little thing, but I wonder if showing gay characters having deep platonic ties with members of the same sex helps work against some of the misconceptions I mentioned above.

Thoughts?

[wenxina]

Feb 20, 2010 1:13:19 GMT -5 tkts said:

In the debate that's going on right now over "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," you sometimes hear people say things like "I wouldn't want to share sleeping quarters with someone who's attracted to me." Or "I don't want to serve with some guy who's going to be ogling me in the shower." Outside the military arena, there's the paranoia about allowing gay men to serve in roles like Scoutmaster, as if any gay man who's around boys probably just wants to have sex with them. There seems to be a perception, among some people, that gay equals sex-crazed, and that being gay means you have the uncontrollable urge to jump the bones of every single member of the same sex you meet.

Puh-lease... we have standards too...

On a more serious note, you raise an interesting point about the nonsexual nature of many of the same-sex relationships. Although... Tara and Dawn not getting jiggy wit it... well, the fact that it would've been illegal may be a contributing factor...

[Randi Giles]

That whole "I don't want to serve with some guy who's going to be ogling me in the shower" is so lame. If you're comfortable with your sexuality what do you have to worry about. I can't even believe that in this day in age that still even going on in the military.

BTW getting jiggy wit it. Lol. Haven't hear that in a while.

[Miss. Rogueh]

Feb 20, 2010 1:40:24 GMT -5 Randi Giles said:

I can't even believe that in this day in age that still even going on in the military.

Speaking as an Ex Navy wife, yeah it still happens in the military. My husband was on a submarine (please curb your jokes. I have heard them all) I grew up around the Sub Base. Yes there are members of the military that are gay but because of the don't ask don't tell their significant others are treated as if they were just friends. They get no benifits, they even try to deny the life insurance pay offs of gay solders that are killed in action if the benifactor is their partner. I can't tell you alot about the problems but I can say that more then one Gay member of our military has been assulted and harrassed by their co-workers. Soon the military will have a Mathew Shepard press nightmare on their hands and things will change. It is sad that someone will have to lose their life for this to happen but thats just the way our society is. We arn't good at prevention...

No matter what their sexual preferance is they are still standing up and protecting their country.

[CourtneyDax]

Feb 21, 2010 1:24:02 GMT -5 Miss. Rogueh said:

I can't tell you alot about the problems but I can say that more then one Gay member of our military has been assulted and harrassed by their co-workers. Soon the military will have a Mathew Shepard press nightmare on their hands and things will change. It is sad that someone will have to lose their life for this to happen but thats just the way our society is. We arn't good at prevention...

No matter what their sexual preferance is they are still standing up and protecting their country.

That is such a sad to thing to hear that Gays are getting beaten on by people who are supposed to be on their side. Hopefully President Obama rids of DADT before someone has to be killed by their own men.

[gumgnome]

The very name "Don't ask, don't tell" seems repressive and damaging. I understand that the military don't exactly want to spend however many millions trying to educate their troops in common courtesy and understanding to their fellow man (like that would ever have a useful place on a battlefield!) but by actively encouraging people to keep their mouths shut seems almost designed to allow bad emotions to build up and fester. Just because people don't talk about things doesn't mean that they don't know about them and at least when opinions are out in the open, people know where they stand with each other. The current plan seems a lot like the strategy of hiding under your coat and hoping that everything turns out OK.

[wytchcroft]

possible Dollhouse SPOILERS in my comment below.

Feb 20, 2010 1:13:19 GMT -5 tkts said:

This is something I just started thinking about, and I'm curious whether anyone thinks it makes sense.

BtVS gets a lot of praise, rightly, for advancing the realistic portrayal of gay relationships on TV and treating gay characters' sexuality with dignity. But it occurred to me that the ways in which BtVS was progressive had to do not just with the portrayal of relationships like Willow and Tara's, but also with the platonic same-sex friendships of the gay characters.

In the debate that's going on right now over "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," you sometimes hear people say things like "I wouldn't want to share sleeping quarters with someone who's attracted to me." Or "I don't want to serve with some guy who's going to be ogling me in the shower." Outside the military arena, there's the paranoia about allowing gay men to serve in roles like Scoutmaster, as if any gay man who's around boys probably just wants to have sex with them. There seems to be a perception, among some people, that gay equals sex-crazed, and that being gay means you have the uncontrollable urge to jump the bones of every single member of the same sex you meet.

Buffy, on the other hand, showed many examples of gay characters having close bonds with members of the same sex for whom they had no sexual desire whatsoever. Willow would probably find the idea of making out with Buffy to be extremely off-putting. Tara shares a strong and completely asexual bond with Dawn.

Maybe it's just a little thing, but I wonder if showing gay characters having deep platonic ties with members of the same sex helps work against some of the misconceptions I mentioned above.

Thoughts?

very interesting!

and, shipper's fantasies aside, there are some other good examples - Oz and Xander always got on well and Xander and Riley to.

Spike and Dawn for that matter. And Clem!

But seriously I think what you are dealing with is the Whedon family creation thing. Joss has a tendency to break families down Ted as a robot (and the bad 'dad' in Dollhouse S2 if you know the character i'm referring to)... and Dawn's blood kin in Family.

This is contrasted with Giles as the (mostly) good Dad, albeit one whom Buffy must eventually outgrow, and the 'family' created in Buffy and Joyce's absence by Willow, Tara and Dawn (still the most radical portrayal of same sex parenting in a prime tv show that i can think of) at the beginning of S6. In the S7 commentary Drew Goddard refers to Faith as the visiting 'Dad' to Mom Buffy. And i think Dawn and Willow's relationship, especially in S6 when Tara and Will break up, is another example. Angel / Spike were sort of family too with Dru and Darla. And i'm sure there are others.

In Dollhouse the future heroes create a new family (even if they're told not to call it that) and the most powerful relationship is the mother / son bond between Adele and Topher.

With BTVS and sexuality, I always liked as well that Buffy overcame her own knee jerk uncomfortability with Tara and learned to love her by continuing to love Willow. (in the platonic sense).

Yes, subtext abounds - and S8 may open doors the show kept shut, but we're talking TV in this thread so that's my take.

[gumgnome]

Feb 21, 2010 13:15:27 GMT -5 wytchcroft said:

very interesting!

and, shipper's fantasies aside, there are some other good examples - Oz and Xander always got on well and Xander and Riley to.

Spike and Dawn for that matter. And Clem!

But seriously I think what you are dealing with is the Whedon family creation thing. Joss has a tendency to break families down Ted as a robot (and the bad 'dad' in Dollhouse S2 if you know the character i'm referring to)... and Dawn's blood kin in Family.

This is contrasted with Giles as the (mostly) good Dad, albeit one whom Buffy must eventually outgrow, and the 'family' created in Buffy and Joyce's absence by Willow, Tara and Dawn (still the most radical portrayal of same sex parenting in a prime tv show that i can think of) at the beginning of S6. In the S7 commentary Drew Goddard refers to Faith as the visiting 'Dad' to Mom Buffy. And i think Dawn and Willow's relationship, especially in S6 when Tara and Will break up, is another example. Angel / Spike were sort of family too with Dru and Darla. And i'm sure there are others.

In Dollhouse the future heroes create a new family (even if they're told not to call it that) and the most powerful relationship is the mother / son bond between Adele and Topher.

With BTVS and sexuality, I always liked as well that Buffy overcame her own knee jerk uncomfortability with Tara and learned to love her by continuing to love Willow. (in the platonic sense).

Yes, subtext abounds - and S8 may open doors the show kept shut, but we're talking TV in this thread so that's my take.

Nice summary of some interesting points! Karma!
I haven't seen all of Dollhouse S2 yet (including epitaph 2) but from Epitaph 1, I got more than a platonic feeling from Adele and Topher. Mother/son wasn't my immediate reaction. Anyone else?

[wytchcroft]

Feb 22, 2010 3:13:25 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

I haven't seen all of Dollhouse S2 yet (including epitaph 2) but from Epitaph 1, I got more than a platonic feeling from Adele and Topher. Mother/son wasn't my immediate reaction. Anyone else?

GAH! i hope i didn't SPOIL anything?!?!? i would feel terrible if that were so.
i've added a 'possible spoiler' note to my post, just in case.

[wenxina]

There was definitely a maternal vibe that Adelle gave in "Epitaph One"... the way she cooed at Topher trying to calm him down. I think she even goes as far as to call him "My darling" several times, and even offers to read to him in an attempt to get him to settle down. She's very protective of him.

SPOILER: Click to show

In "Epitaph Two" she's equally as protective of him, threatening to cut out Zone's tongue for a disparaging comment he makes against Topher. She even volunteers herself to be with Topher when he sets off his EMP device, knowing that she would die with him. He declines, telling her that he can fix what he did to the people's heads, but she had to take care of the rest of the damage.