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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Feb 24, 2010 13:12:33 GMT -5
How old was Chloe? About 15? I don't know why Kennedy thought that by shouting at her and calling her names, she will suddenly be stronger. Buffy didn't do that, so why did Kennedy? Erm... ever been in a military setting? Yelling at recruits is kinda an everyday event. Kennedy was placed in charge of the girls, while Buffy worked her day job. And the reprimand was justified, since Chloe seriously fumbled. It was training for their life, not a stroll in the park. What do you think Kendra's training was like? Or the training of hundreds of Potentials all over the world? I'm not saying Kennedy didn't let the power get to her head; she was pretty gleeful. But she didn't cause Chloe's death. And as for yelling, after she buried Chloe, Buffy did yell at them. Pretty much told them all to shape up. I thought about this myself, but it still doesn't make it any better imo. In the military, do they not have years of training? Maybe that type of bullying (it is bullying imo), works over time, but shouting at a kid wont work straight away. Plus, Chloe knew that she was in for a big battle soon. The biggest battle. Would yelling really help her nerves? Telling her she's just a 'maggot' wont exactly help her feel ready. Buffy didn't call any of them maggots and then get giddy over the fact that she called them maggots. She called Chloe stupid for listening to the First. She didn't just stand there shouting at her. |
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Post by wenxina on Feb 24, 2010 13:35:12 GMT -5
Hey, if you want to harp on and on about "maggot", that's your prerogative. You're missing the big picture, IMO.
I'm done derailing the topic.
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Feb 24, 2010 14:32:33 GMT -5
My main point was based 'maggot' comment, so I kinda had to mention it a few times. I get the big picture, but I don't think that Kennedy was actually helping.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Feb 24, 2010 15:06:58 GMT -5
I was going to write something fairly similar to this yesterday morning (although I doubt it would have been as concise or well-expressed - karma) but part of this argument bothers me. I agree with you when you say that Spike isn't really responsible for the crimes that he committed without a soul and think that Angel should feel the same way. However, it then struck me that if Spike shouldn't find himself responsible for the bad things that he did without a soul, then he shouldn't really be able to take credit for or grow from the good things that he did while soulless, including the motivation to get back his soul! If Spike isn't responsible for his misdeeds in the past, then his whole arc in the show, of finding a need to do good from love while intrinsically evil, is meaningless. I'm sure Spike does accept responsibility for the crimes he committed, the same as he takes credit for the good things he did. He expresses guilt to Angel several times in season five ("Damage" being the best example). However, he's also not going to cry and apologise for something that was in his nature at the time (especially to Robin, who was trying to kill him!). He feels guilty, but he has the common sense to know that he wasn't really at fault. (Cheers for the karma, btw!  If I get pushed when I’m walking down the street, and that makes me accidentally push someone else who falls onto the road and gets driven over and killed by a car, I’m not going to say “It wasn’t my fault; I don’t feel bad about it”. Or if I get drugged and kill someone from sadistic needs because of the drugs(which is a metaphor I often use for vampire’s soulness). I would feel like hell over it. I would try not to, but part of what makes me a good person would be that I would feel bad. Or at the very least not proud over that I killed a strong warrior who was trying to protect people from my drug-induced “evil”, like Spike does. You would have the right to feel as guilty as you want, but objectively it still wouldn't be your fault. And if you were convicted of murder/manslaughter, or the family of the person you accidentually killed tried to take revenge on you, it wouldn't be just. And I wouldn't judge you for having the common sense to know you don't deserve to be treated that way over something that wasn't your fault. As for the coat, did it never occur to anyone that Spike might just be a bit of an arsehole, soul or no soul? Sure he's a hero, but he's not Superman. Whether you approve or not, it's in-character for him to swagger about in the coat of the Slayer he killed. Wood didn't care one bit about Spike being a threat because of the trigger. He just wanted plain revenge. As Buffy put it, on a man that doesn't excist anymore, hasn't for a very long time. I do think Spike feels bad about killing the slayers but Wood didn't ask for an apology or an explenation on why he killed his mother. I think Spike would have had the deceny to talk if Wood had come to him for the right reasons. But Wood didn't want any of that, he just wanted revenge. He's been nothing but hostile since the day he met him. Spike just copied his attitude. Spike's first trophy was the scar over his eye that he got from the Chinese slayer, his second was Nikki's coat. Other vampires would have done far worse against Slayers. Spike didn't rape,humalite,degrade any slayer. He respected them for what they were, warriors and fought them fairly. Karma.  Btw, if people are seriously arguing that calling somebody a "maggot" is a crime that warrants death, then this thread has completely jumped the shark.  |
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 24, 2010 15:15:14 GMT -5
In the military, do they not have years of training? Maybe that type of bullying (it is bullying imo), works over time, but shouting at a kid wont work straight away. Basic training lasts several weeks, which is when the large majority of the being-screamed-at happens. And FYI, the drill instructors call their trainees a hell of a lot worse things than "maggot".  Turn it around and look at it from another direction: if Chloe couldn't handle being yelled at and called something as relatively minor as "maggot" in a safe setting like Buffy's backyard, how was she going to do in a life-or-death battle against evil preachers, ubervamps, and Firsts? If Chloe couldn't take it, then she should've gone to Buffy, said "Look, this whole thing just isn't for me," and left. Don't try to hang it on Kennedy that one girl had a completely out-of-proportion reaction to a little bit of tough love... |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Feb 24, 2010 16:44:45 GMT -5
However, he's also not going to cry and apologise for something that was in his nature at the time (especially to Robin, who was trying to kill him!). Wait, didn't he seek Robin out? I agree completely with what you're saying here, but I'm not sure if you got my point. It wasn't souled Spike's fault what he did without a soul, but he should feel bad about it anyway, not proud or indifferent. Just him realizing that killing a slayer is just as bad as killing anyone else, without him beating himself up over it Angel-style, would be enough, but he doesn't seem to count her to one of the people he shouldn't have killed. I'm not saying that he would kill a slayer today just for the fun of it, he's not that bad, but I don't want him to be the kind of guy who's proud over having that as a part of his past. But I don't think it's out of character of him, being a ass, that's actually in character, but I still want him to do better. |
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Kratos
Potential Slayer
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Post by Kratos on Feb 24, 2010 18:15:44 GMT -5
Wait, didn't he seek Robin out? Nope, he didn't. If you mean as an adult. Spike didn't even know that he had killed his mother. Robin came under false pretenses. Buffy said this: "Plus, I'm not really sure how I feel about leaving Spike at Robin's house to watch over him." Robin offered to help out and look after Spike. Buffy and Spike were ofcourse unaware that this was a setup made by Giles and Wood. Wood didn't even give Spike a fair shot to defend himself, he played the trigger song so that the simple "demon" would come out. While Spike was stuck in his mind reliving his past trauma, it's only because Spike was able to break through it that he was able to come out of it and just at the last second blocked the fatal blow. If you mean as a kid, Spike was winning his first fight with Nikki and had her in a hold where he could bite her neck, just as he was going for it. Little Robin knocks over a trashcan which makes Spike lose his concentration and Nikki gets out of his hold. I don't think that he saw Robin but even then he's not Angelus. He wouldn't go after the kid to hurt the slayer. Paul, thanks for the karma |
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Feb 24, 2010 18:20:42 GMT -5
However, he's also not going to cry and apologise for something that was in his nature at the time (especially to Robin, who was trying to kill him!). Wait, didn't he seek Robin out? No, Wood lured him to his house with the intention of killing him. Spike didn't even know who he was until Wood told him. EDIT: Too late, lol. |
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elenasaur
Ensouled Vampire
I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.[Mo0:30]
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Post by elenasaur on Feb 24, 2010 19:58:59 GMT -5
I definitely think that Spike felt guilt. When we first found him in season 7 he was a crumpled ball of crazy that was being manipulated by the First. I'm assuming that getting his soul back sent Spike on a very Angel-like self-pity/crazed-by-guilt bender. I highly doubt that the First would have been able to manipulate him so easily if he was of completely sound mind.
As interesting as crazy-Spike was, nobody wanted him to stick around, because he just wasn't useful. He had to separate himself from his past, or else he wouldn't be able to do anything besides dwell on it. The apocalypse was coming, and Buffy needed a strong fighter to stick by her side, so Spike rose to the challenge. I for one, am proud of him.
Now, Robin may have legitimately seen Spike as a threat. Spike certainly acted very nonchalant about his recent ensouling, and all his many, many previous murders. So maybe Wood thought that if Spike wasn't repentant, he wasn't really a good guy. Sound reasoning, I guess. Honestly though, I don't think that he was doing anything more than finding justification for revenge.
I understand the appeal of revenge, but it just was not the time for it. Buffy needed a strong, united front. If Wood really wanted to help her, he should have accepted her as a leader and followed her orders.
As for the original question, what was Spike biting Wood all about? I am not a psychologist or anything, so this is all conjecture. Still, I think it was mostly just asserting his dominance. Basically saying, I'm stronger than you, bow down before me. He didn't think he had anything to apologize for, and I agree. The final indignity.
Also, I see nothing wrong with Spike keeping Nikki Wood's coat. It's a trophy, which may be construed as a bit sick, but why shouldn't he be proud? Buffy was killed twice: First, by a vampire who was over 600 years old, and the second by a god from a hell dimension. If that's the kind of power it takes to kill a slayer, then Spike must be a pretty freaking amazing fighter to have killed two. So, go him. Keep the trophy.
PS, sorry this was so long. Didn't realize until after I posted.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 24, 2010 20:04:49 GMT -5
Good post, elena. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Feb 24, 2010 23:00:07 GMT -5
In the military, do they not have years of training? Maybe that type of bullying (it is bullying imo), works over time, but shouting at a kid wont work straight away. Basic training lasts several weeks, which is when the large majority of the being-screamed-at happens. And FYI, the drill instructors call their trainees a hell of a lot worse things than "maggot". Turn it around and look at it from another direction: if Chloe couldn't handle being yelled at and called something as relatively minor as "maggot" in a safe setting like Buffy's backyard, how was she going to do in a life-or-death battle against evil preachers, ubervamps, and Firsts? If Chloe couldn't take it, then she should've gone to Buffy, said "Look, this whole thing just isn't for me," and left. Don't try to hang it on Kennedy that one girl had a completely out-of-proportion reaction to a little bit of tough love... I'm not hanging it on Kennedy. I don't think what Chloe did was her fault, I'm just saying she was a bitch, imo. There are ways to do things and I don't think she was helping. If what she was doing helped, why didn't Buffy do it? Why didn't she stand there shouting at them until they improved? Her whole 'I'm better than you' attitude annoyed me and reminded me of Faith. I'm not insulting her as a Slayer, she was a good fighter and had confidence, but she was a complete brat. Also, I see nothing wrong with Spike keeping Nikki Wood's coat. It's a trophy, which may be construed as a bit sick, but why shouldn't be proud? Buffy was killed twice: First, by a vampire who was over 600 years old, and the second by a god from a hell dimension. If that's the kind of power it takes to kill a slayer, then Spike must be a pretty freaking amazing fighter to have killed two. So, go him. Keep the trophy. I thought he was suppose to be a different person with the soul? Wouldn't he have different fighting styles/strengths??? Seriously, if it was your mother's coat that Spike was wearing around you, would you honestly not care one little bit? Also, he got over it pretty quickly when his coat was destroyed in Angel. It obviously didn't mean that much to him. |
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elenasaur
Ensouled Vampire
I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.[Mo0:30]
Posts: 1,565
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Post by elenasaur on Feb 24, 2010 23:27:04 GMT -5
Thanks, El Diablo Robotico I thought he was suppose to be a different person with the soul? Wouldn't he have different fighting styles/strengths??? Seriously, if it was your mother's coat that Spike was wearing around you, would you honestly not care one little bit? Also, he got over it pretty quickly when his coat was destroyed in Angel. It obviously didn't mean that much to him. Those are good points. Spike was a different person after he got his soul back. He didn't have quite the same thirst for violence and killing as he did before. For purposes of a fight, he was a wimpier, watered down, version of his old self. The leather coat as a trophy represented his power in a fight. It marked him as a bad-ass. He needed to wear the coat to remind himself of who he was, and what he could do. By wearing it, he gained back some of his power, not just physically, but emotionally. He wasn't subdued or guilty or pitiful. It prepared him for the final battle by giving him confidence in himself. Spike didn't mourn the loss in Angel because he didn't need the reassurance it gave him anymore. It was like a security blanket he grew out of. You're probably right on the Robin Wood front though. I can't even begin to relate, and so I'm a little lacking in empathy. So, I feel for his pain. I still think he could have picked a different time. Or not gone behind Buffy's back to do it. (I'm surprised at how good his memory is though. Remembering her killer, I can understand. Remembering her coat... not so much.) |
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Post by Inappropriate Starches on Feb 25, 2010 1:43:53 GMT -5
So a lot of people seem to be justifying the fact that Spike didn't have a soul, while others agree they understand that a soul, whether it was present during the killing or not, would naturally make you feel guilty.
I agree, more in general as they are slightly apposing, to both. My question however is, does that justify biting Wood? This of course doesn't go to the Spike wearing the coat is sick and should feel forever guilty faction of course. Again, I'm more looking to be persuaded here as I'm not entirely sure how I feel. Right now I'm just wondering that even if Spike didn't feel all that guilty (however I think he did in many ways) and even if he can be excused as he was evil (and I often think that in some ways he should be afforded what Angel was afforded when he got his soul back) does that really explain or justify biting Robin though? Even if Spike can be forgiven for acts when he was soulless, he had a soul when he bit Robin, and while Robin did try to kill him, he was no longer a threat at that point, and the grief for his mother didn't exactly allow him the clarity that good and evil Spike are two different animals.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 25, 2010 2:21:34 GMT -5
I agree, more in general as they are slightly apposing, to both. My question however is, does that justify biting Wood? This of course doesn't go to the Spike wearing the coat is sick and should feel forever guilty faction of course. Again, I'm more looking to be persuaded here as I'm not entirely sure how I feel. Right now I'm just wondering that even if Spike didn't feel all that guilty (however I think he did in many ways) and even if he can be excused as he was evil (and I often think that in some ways he should be afforded what Angel was afforded when he got his soul back) does that really explain or justify biting Robin though? Even if Spike can be forgiven for acts when he was soulless, he had a soul when he bit Robin, and while Robin did try to kill him, he was no longer a threat at that point, and the grief for his mother didn't exactly allow him the clarity that good and evil Spike are two different animals. I just think that you're getting a little too caught up in the biting thing, and making it out to be more than it is. He didn't drain the guy to the brink of death--he took a tiny little sip to make a point. Wood slapped a band-aid on it and was at work and looking fine the very next day. It's really not all that different than Oz punching Xander in "Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered" for making Willow cry, other than the symbolism involved. If Spike had punched him in the nose, instead, would you have as big a problem with it? |
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Feb 25, 2010 4:26:08 GMT -5
(I'm surprised at how good his memory is though. Remembering her killer, I can understand. Remembering her coat... not so much.) Probably didn't help that the First was taunting him with the image of his mother in that coat. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Feb 25, 2010 6:18:24 GMT -5
Wait, didn't he seek Robin out? Nope, he didn't. If you mean as an adult. Spike didn't even know that he had killed his mother. Robin came under false pretenses. Buffy said this: "Plus, I'm not really sure how I feel about leaving Spike at Robin's house to watch over him." Robin offered to help out and look after Spike. Buffy and Spike were ofcourse unaware that this was a setup made by Giles and Wood. Wood didn't even give Spike a fair shot to defend himself, he played the trigger song so that the simple "demon" would come out. While Spike was stuck in his mind reliving his past trauma, it's only because Spike was able to break through it that he was able to come out of it and just at the last second blocked the fatal blow. If you mean as a kid, Spike was winning his first fight with Nikki and had her in a hold where he could bite her neck, just as he was going for it. Little Robin knocks over a trashcan which makes Spike lose his concentration and Nikki gets out of his hold. I don't think that he saw Robin but even then he's not Angelus. He wouldn't go after the kid to hurt the slayer. Paul, thanks for the karma I must have been so tired, I thought it said Nikki, not Robin, and I was so sure it was Spike that found Nikki, not the other way around. Sorry for you feeling the need to break it down for me. However, I very much disagree on what you think souless Spike is capable off. I doubt he wouldn't hurt children. I mean, he's seen working with Marcus who Spike told Angel likes children, and he seemed to have no problem with that. |
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zamolxis
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Post by zamolxis on Feb 25, 2010 7:08:26 GMT -5
However, I very much disagree on what you think souless Spike is capable off. I doubt he wouldn't hurt children. I mean, he's seen working with Marcus who Spike told Angel likes children, and he seemed to have no problem with that. As much as I love Spike, I have to agree with you on this. We also have Wesley's father in Lineage saying to Spike " We've met. 1963. My colleagues and I fell upon you slaughtering an orphanage in Vienna. Killed 2 of my men before you escaped. " |
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Feb 25, 2010 11:44:15 GMT -5
However, I very much disagree on what you think souless Spike is capable off. I doubt he wouldn't hurt children. I can't speak for Kratos, but I don't think he meant that Spike wouldn't hurt children in general. I think he meant that Spike wouldn't go after Nikki's child specifically to hurt her. That's not really his m.o.; he kills children because it's fun and they taste nice, not because he wants to hurt their parents. That's Angelus' style. Spike would rather take Nikki on face-to-face than destroy her emotionally. Her whole 'I'm better than you' attitude annoyed me and reminded me of Faith. Kennedy is better.  |
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Post by wenxina on Feb 25, 2010 12:09:33 GMT -5
Kennedy is better. Better than most of the other whiny brats. At least with her, she wasn't just always speaking out of fear. And she was level-headed, even in scary situations. She was the one trying to marshal the girls together after the explosion took Faith out. She acted as their commanding officer, and when the uber-vamps showed up, even in a hopeless situation, she was the one to try and do something. When one of them sneak-attacked one of the other Potentials, it was Kennedy who sprung into action. Brash, bratty, opinionated, yes. Better, also yes. Perhaps that's why people don't like her. There are ways to do things and I don't think she was helping. If what she was doing helped, why didn't Buffy do it? Why didn't she stand there shouting at them until they improved? Buffy was standing right there when Kennedy called Chloe a maggot. She was trying to build an army, so Kennedy wasn't out of line. Kennedy was placed in charge by Buffy, since she was the most experienced of all the Potentials, and possibly the best trained of the lot, since she had been trained from a very young age (shown by the fact that she had mastered the crossbow from a very young age). Also, Buffy was busy with her other responsibilities as well. Like her job. And if you want to talk scare tactics... I don't see Buffy's "My death may make one of you the next Slayer" speech as very comforting either, since it implies that the Slayer's lifespan is pretty short, and the Slayer usually dies a violent death. I'll consider it scarier than "maggot". All I'm saying is that the Kennedy hate is pretty reactionary, and not very grounded in the realm of the objective. I'm not saying that you can't dislike her, but I'm pointing out that the "reasons/rationales" often offered pretty much fall apart under scrutiny. Like you said, Kennedy is kinda like Faith. And guess what, Faith's brash attitude actually endears her to her fans. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Feb 25, 2010 12:11:44 GMT -5
However, I very much disagree on what you think souless Spike is capable off. I doubt he wouldn't hurt children. I can't speak for Kratos, but I don't think he meant that Spike wouldn't hurt children in general. I think he meant that Spike wouldn't go after Nikki's child specifically to hurt her. That's not really his m.o.; he kills children because it's fun and they taste nice, not because he wants to hurt their parents. That's Angelus' style. Spike would rather take Nikki on face-to-face than destroy her emotionally. I can partly agree on that. While I think that he would use kids to hurt their parents, and probably have to tear families apart, I don't think he would have had with Nikki, unless she was unwilling to fight him and he needed to draw her out. Maybe kidnap Robin and use as bait, but with the slayers he seemed to want a fight, not to break them down, like Angelus tried with Buffy. He's more fist and fangs than planning and scheming in most cases. |
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