Does Xander Get a Free Pass?

[The Girl In Question]

In another forum I'm a part of, people think Xander is a murderer as well. I don't agree with that, but their reasoning is that since he caused the events of OMWF, and didn't mention anything about it to the Scoobies when he could have, that makes him a murderer.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Feb 27, 2010 18:40:01 GMT -5 The Girl In Question said:

In another forum I'm a part of, people think Xander is a murderer as well. I don't agree with that, but their reasoning is that since he caused the events of OMWF, and didn't mention anything about it to the Scoobies when he could have, that makes him a murderer.

Hmm, interesting, but a pretty tough claim to make stick, I think. At worst it'd be criminal negligence, or possibly manslaughter, since he didn't intend for that guy to get killed. (It was just the one guy, right?) As he said, he didn't know what was going to happen--he just thought there would be dances and songs.

But where he made a huge mistake was in not coming forward after they found out about that first death. If anybody else had died after that, he would have been completely guilty in their death. Buffy herself came within just a couple of seconds of going up in smoke. Kinda funny that only the intervention of Spike, who Xander hates, kept him from becoming a murderer...

[Randi Giles]

Feb 27, 2010 18:40:01 GMT -5 The Girl In Question said:

In another forum I'm a part of, people think Xander is a murderer as well. I don't agree with that, but their reasoning is that since he caused the events of OMWF, and didn't mention anything about it to the Scoobies when he could have, that makes him a murderer.

What!? What is this forum? I thought Xander didn't realized all that happen stuff happen until Sweet mention the the piece of jewelry on Dawn. Now it's time for a re-watch. Xander isn't a murderer. He could barely stand the thought of killing Ben.

[buffyfan21]

Feb 27, 2010 18:40:01 GMT -5 The Girl In Question said:

In another forum I'm a part of, people think Xander is a murderer as well. I don't agree with that, but their reasoning is that since he caused the events of OMWF, and didn't mention anything about it to the Scoobies when he could have, that makes him a murderer.

Wow, I personally think that's taking things a stretch too far. Xander made a mistake, sure, but I certainly wouldn't label him a murderer. He didn't know what was going to happen with that spell, and he certainly didn't mean to get innocents killed. It was a lapse in judgment, no doubt about it, but there certainly wasn't anything malicious behind it. Although, I have to say, given Xander's luck with spells in the past, I am surprised that he went that route again.

[The Girl In Question]

Lol, if you google Buffy TWOP you'll find the forum. I brought up the topic that I didn't think Xander was a murderer in the "i love kennedy! unpopular opinions" thread, and a LOT of people disagreed with me.

[tkts]

Feb 27, 2010 13:32:48 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

Feb 24, 2010 23:41:19 GMT -5 tkts said:

What bothers me more than leaving Anya, even, is the way he sometimes treats Willow during Season 1.

I really wanted to believe that he was completely oblivious to her crush on him. If he were, it would have been OK. But the dialogue makes it pretty clear that he knows, and in light of that, things like him making Willow listen as he rehearses asking out Buffy seem incredibly cruel.

I can't really get too mad at Xander here. You must remember that in S1 Xander was quite ditzy. I find it entirely believable that he would be unaware of Willow's feelings. He was too busy having Buffy on the brain. What does make me mad, however, is when Willow starts dating Oz and then Xander is suddenly interested in her. The whole, "you're unattainable so now I must have you." He got used to being the prince in Willow's life and didn't like it when he was being pushed aside for someone else. Which is pretty selfish if you think about it, did he expect her to pine away for him forever while knowing that he would never be able to truly return her feelings?

I really don't see his affair with Willow in S3 that way. It's not like she started dating Oz and he instantly got jealous ... the "Formalwear Incident" was something that neither of them was looking for and neither expected.

[sosa lola]

Feb 27, 2010 16:43:15 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Xander I feel gets no more a free pass then Willow or Buffy does.

True, but I don't think Willow or Buffy have done as many crappy things that make them need a free pass to the degree that Xander does.

I have to disagree here. Xander does more wrong than Willow? Season Six proves that Willow did the worst deed out of the three? What did Xander do that's more wrong than ending the world?

And like I said, it's also completely unfair the amount of love he gets, compared to the amount of hate Dawn/Riley/Kennedy get. I understand why they wouldn't be on many fans' lists of favorite characters, but they really haven't done anything that deserves "hate", whereas Xander has, but somehow gets away with it almost scott-free.

I guess it has more to do with Xander being more interesting than both Dawn and Riley. He's a mix of good and bad qualities and that makes him real. I love Riley and Dawn, but to be honest, I enjoy reading fics centering around Xander's struggles and insecurities more than them.

What do you mean by Xander getting out scott-free? You mean among fans or in the show? During the show, Xander was the only character who was never given a second chance by the women he wronged while Willow was forgiven by both Oz and Tara and retarted her relationship with both. Xander was scolded by Giles plenty of times for making mistakes like in BB&B, Beauty and the Beast and What's My Line Part 1. Buffy is unable to trust Xander with her relationships because of how he feels about her vampire boyfriends. Fate punished Xander by making Willow a pain to his relationship with Anya, and putting him in Buffy's shoes in Selfless.

And if you mean fans, then I can point you to a great number of shipper fics with a lot of Xander bashing, seriously, it took me ages to find a Spuffy fic that writes Xander decently way back in 2005. Same goes for Willow/Oz and Giles/Anya fics. Luckily, right now there are many wonerful Spuffy fics wihout character bashing, still not bothering to read a new Giles/Anya fic unless it's written by someone I trust.

If you don't mind me asking, where can I find that Favorite Buffy Characters poll? Is it in this forum? 'Cause I couldn't find it.

[buffyfan21]

Feb 28, 2010 0:14:55 GMT -5 tkts said:

Feb 27, 2010 13:32:48 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

I can't really get too mad at Xander here. You must remember that in S1 Xander was quite ditzy. I find it entirely believable that he would be unaware of Willow's feelings. He was too busy having Buffy on the brain. What does make me mad, however, is when Willow starts dating Oz and then Xander is suddenly interested in her. The whole, "you're unattainable so now I must have you." He got used to being the prince in Willow's life and didn't like it when he was being pushed aside for someone else. Which is pretty selfish if you think about it, did he expect her to pine away for him forever while knowing that he would never be able to truly return her feelings?

I really don't see his affair with Willow in S3 that way. It's not like she started dating Oz and he instantly got jealous ... the "Formalwear Incident" was something that neither of them was looking for and neither expected.

Yeah, I guess when you put it that way I kinda see your point. I still think, though that had Willow never got involved with Oz, Xander would have continued to remain oblivious. I think this relationship caused him to his best friend in a whole new light.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Feb 28, 2010 7:57:50 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

Feb 27, 2010 16:43:15 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

True, but I don't think Willow or Buffy have done as many crappy things that make them need a free pass to the degree that Xander does.

I have to disagree here. Xander does more wrong than Willow? Season Six proves that Willow did the worst deed out of the three? What did Xander do that's more wrong than ending the world?

Willow wasn't herself--the magic took her over and warped her to the point where she almost ceased to be Willow anymore. That doesn't completely excuse her, and she doesn't deserve a free pass for it the way that Angel does for the crimes of Angelus, but for me, at least, it lessens some of the responsibility she'd otherwise take for it. But I can understand where you might disagree with me on that--the Willow/Dark Willow thing is a whole other huge debate unto itself.

Still, however much blame you wanna assign to her for that, it was one huge mistake spread over a very short time. You can also throw cheating on Oz, and violating Tara's mind into there for a total of three really unfortunate things that she did over the 7 years. As we've seen in this thread, Xander's got a whole list of bad moments, one right after another.

Are there any other really bad ones from Willow that I'm not thinking of?

And like I said, it's also completely unfair the amount of love he gets, compared to the amount of hate Dawn/Riley/Kennedy get. I understand why they wouldn't be on many fans' lists of favorite characters, but they really haven't done anything that deserves "hate", whereas Xander has, but somehow gets away with it almost scott-free.

I guess it has more to do with Xander being more interesting than both Dawn and Riley. He's a mix of good and bad qualities and that makes him real. I love Riley and Dawn, but to be honest, I enjoy reading fics centering around Xander's struggles and insecurities more than them.

I'm not saying that I don't think people should like Xander more than Dawn or Riley, because I agree with you: he's far more complex and interesting than both. Dawn's one of my favorite characters, but even I'll admit that when you get right down to it, she's fairly bland--she was never given much of a chance to really stand out, and develop a personality that truly grabbed people. Same for Riley and Kennedy. But it's the flat-out dislike of those three that I have a problem with, especially in comparison to Xander. The three of them land right near the top of nearly every "most-hated characters" list you'll ever see, yet none of them have ever done anything that actually deserves hatred. Not even close. Whereas Xander has done some truly awful things--to his closest friends!!--and yet, to quote Anya: "everyone still freaking loves him!" It's the hypocrisy that bugs me. If you wanna love Xander, go love Xander. Great. If you wanna not be a big fan of Dawn or Riley, that's cool, too. But save the "hate" for the characters that have it coming.

*end mini-rant*

What do you mean by Xander getting out scott-free? You mean among fans or in the show? During the show, Xander was the only character who was never given a second chance by the women he wronged while Willow was forgiven by both Oz and Tara and retarted her relationship with both.

Well, if he hadn't wronged them in the first place, that wouldn't have been a problem for him.

But after he walks out on Anya and the wedding, are there any real repercussions among his friends? Willow herself says, "I feel like I should be hating Xander, but I can't." And hey, I don't have a problem with that. They're his friends--they should be there for him, and support him, and try to be understanding. Which is an especially generous attitude coming from Buffy, considering how he reacted after she ran away to LA, or kept Angel's return a secret from everybody. I wouldn't exactly say that he was the greatest friend to her there. In fact, he was pretty much a confrontational horse's ass in both cases.

And after the love and support she gave him following the wedding debacle, it was really big of him to be so understanding when he found out about her and Spike...

Oh, wait. He really wasn't, was he? (Which also gets back to his whole double-standard of the past crimes of Anya vs. Spike.)

Xander was scolded by Giles plenty of times for making mistakes like in BB&B, Beauty and the Beast and What's My Line Part 1.

Well, since Xander has no trouble jumping all over his friends for the mistakes they make, I'd say he had those scoldings coming, and he oughta be really thankful he has such good friends who didn't call him out more often for all the other mistakes he made.

(Sidebar: Giles has a lot of nerve getting angry at Xander for falling asleep on werewolf-watch, seeing as how he did exactly the same thing in "Phases".)

Buffy is unable to trust Xander with her relationships because of how he feels about her vampire boyfriends.

Completely his own fault.

Fate punished Xander by making Willow a pain to his relationship with Anya, and putting him in Buffy's shoes in Selfless.

Did fate "punish" him for making Willow feel that way, or did it "even the score" on him for the way he treated Buffy & Angel?

And was Willow really that big a pain to him about Anya? She made an occasional smartass comment, yeah, but outside of "Triangle", I don't think there was much friction there. She certainly never tried to be complicit in Anya's murder the way Xander was--on multiple occasions--with Angel.

And if you mean fans, then I can point you to a great number of shipper fics with a lot of Xander bashing, seriously, it took me ages to find a Spuffy fic that writes Xander decently way back in 2005. Same goes for Willow/Oz and Giles/Anya fics. Luckily, right now there are many wonerful Spuffy fics wihout character bashing, still not bothering to read a new Giles/Anya fic unless it's written by someone I trust.

Guess I'm not reading the same fics as you. I've seen a ton of Spike bashing, but not much of Xander. I'm just going by the reactions of fans on boards like this one, where Xander lands near the top of just about everyone's lists whenever the "favorite characters" topics come up, and by the number of Xander avatars and banners you see.

Part of my reason for even starting this thread in the first place was that I've seen discussions of the negative actions of Spike, Willow, Angel, Faith, Anya, Wesley, etc., etc., but never Xander. I'm sure it's come up before over the years, on different sites, but not very often, and as far as I know, never here. Or at least, not very recently. And it's just been fascinating to read some of the responses. You don't think fans let him off scott-free? After reading that leaving Anya at the altar is apparently "not his fault", and something "he can't be blamed for"? That he's "saintly" compared to nearly everyone around him (tho I'm still waiting for the comparisons between him and Buffy, Riley, Tara, Oz, Dawn, Kennedy...)? I know that I sure wish that I could get away with the stuff Xander does, and have people so easily rationalize it away for me... ;D

If you don't mind me asking, where can I find that Favorite Buffy Characters poll? Is it in this forum? 'Cause I couldn't find it.

It seems you've already found the two I mentioned, because you've replied in both , but here they are again:

forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=jossco&action=display&thread=10512
forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=chapp&action=display&thread=9540

[Randi Giles]

Feb 28, 2010 7:57:50 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

If you don't mind me asking, where can I find that Favorite Buffy Characters poll? Is it in this forum? 'Cause I couldn't find it.

forum.slayalive.com/index.cgi?board=polls&action=display&thread=10580

[Executrix]

The negative flaws that have been brought up are QUITE correct and I do not disagree with them whatsoever.

However, I agree with El Di how that he is still an intriguing character despite his flaws that all of humanity can struggle with.


One of my favorite moments of Xander though is during the Potential episode monologue. Actually it's one of my top favorite monologues throughout the whole series.

I saw what you did last night. You thought you were all special. Miss Sunnydale 2003. And the minute you found out you weren't, you handed the crown to Amanda without a moment's pause. You gave her your power. They'll never know how tough it is, Dawnie, to be the one who isn't chosen. To live so near to the spotlight and never step in it. But I know. I see more than anybody realizes because nobody's watching me. I saw you last night. I see you working here today. You're not special. You're extraordinary.

Chokes me up everytime.

[lightandmagic]

Feb 28, 2010 21:08:41 GMT -5 Executrix said:

The negative flaws that have been brought up are QUITE correct and I do not disagree with them whatsoever.

However, I agree with El Di how that he is still an intriguing character despite his flaws that all of humanity can struggle with.

To help El D out, he said this:

I'm not saying that I don't think people should like Xander more than Dawn or Riley, because I agree with you: he's far more complex and interesting than both.

No one's saying Xander isn't an intriguing character. He is. The question is why is it that Xander, in the show and by fans, gets away with doing completely terrible things?

Feb 28, 2010 7:57:50 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

Feb 27, 2010 16:43:15 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

True, but I don't think Willow or Buffy have done as many crappy things that make them need a free pass to the degree that Xander does.

I have to disagree here. Xander does more wrong than Willow? Season Six proves that Willow did the worst deed out of the three? What did Xander do that's more wrong than ending the world?

Other than the already aforementioned Willow/Dark Willow debate, Xander explicitly tried to kill both Angel and Spike out of mere jealously. Angel when he told Faith that Angel was evil and that she should probably kill him, taking advantage of her ignorance/brashness in the situation. Spike after Anya slept with him. The Spike one is slightly excusable as Spike didn't have a soul at this point, but Xander knew full well that Angel was ensouled and not dangerous when he took advantage of Faith.

He has a soul. It's murder. Yet no one (including Buffy) blames him for being manipulative, deceitful and essentially attempting to kill someone. Why? Faith should be mad at him for taking advantage of her and potentially ruining her relationship with Buffy. Buffy should be pissed because he essentially wanted to kill Angel out of jealously/pettiness. Whereas Willow, while still being regular Willow, only wanted to kill Warren, which in my mind is slightly excusable/understandable considering he killed the love of her life.

Any and all punishment Xander has gotten, and he has definitely not received enough, has been solely his fault. Especially whenever Buffy has gotten angry at him because he has constantly proven himself to be not the most loyal friend.

[deathisyourgift]

I'm going to begin by stating that I have honestly considered naming my future son Alexander just so I could nickname him Xander, such is my love of this character.

The point behind Xander's whole character, in the long-term, is that he is the most purely human of all the scoobies. Willow's and Buffy's uber-righteousness is very hard for me to agree with being 'normal', so when Xander messes up, it's easy to see as being something that anyone might do in that situation. Granted, this is SunnyD, and everything that happens there is like 100000 times more melodramatic and supernatural, so yes, Xander does some really horrible things. I think there's more to be said on this, but it's late here, will post later.

[Executrix]

Mar 1, 2010 0:39:05 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

Feb 28, 2010 21:08:41 GMT -5 Executrix said:

The negative flaws that have been brought up are QUITE correct and I do not disagree with them whatsoever.

However, I agree with El D how that he is still an intriguing character despite his flaws that all of humanity can struggle with.

To help El D out, he said this:



No one's saying Xander isn't an intriguing character.

I know that. That's what I stated in my post.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Mar 1, 2010 2:34:29 GMT -5 Executrix said:

Mar 1, 2010 0:39:05 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

To help El D out, he said this:



No one's saying Xander isn't an intriguing character.

I know that. That's what I stated in my post.

It's cool--I knew what you meant. But thanks to magic for having my back.

Mar 1, 2010 0:39:33 GMT -5 deathisyourgift said:

The point behind Xander's whole character, in the long-term, is that he is the most purely human of all the scoobies. Willow's and Buffy's uber-righteousness is very hard for me to agree with being 'normal', so when Xander messes up, it's easy to see as being something that anyone might do in that situation.

Can you give some examples of Buffy's or Willow's righteousness? Because I can't really remember any off-hand (that's not sarcasm--it's late, and I'm really drawing a blank), yet that's one of my real complaints with Xander. If he just screwed up sometimes, that wouldn't be so bad, but he gets so angry and confrontational with his friends--Buffy especially--when they screw up. His hypocrisy becomes very hard to take sometimes.

I think there's more to be said on this, but it's late here, will post later.

Cool.

[lightandmagic]

Mar 1, 2010 2:34:29 GMT -5 Executrix said:

Mar 1, 2010 0:39:05 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

To help El D out, he said this:



No one's saying Xander isn't an intriguing character.

I know that. That's what I stated in my post.

Oh man, for some reason I read that as disagree. No idea why. My bad.

[sosa lola]

Feb 28, 2010 20:08:24 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Willow wasn't herself--the magic took her over and warped her to the point where she almost ceased to be Willow anymore.
Still, however much blame you wanna assign to her for that, it was one huge mistake spread over a very short time. You can also throw cheating on Oz, and violating Tara's mind into there for a total of three really unfortunate things that she did over the 7 years. As we've seen in this thread, Xander's got a whole list of bad moments, one right after another.

Willow did a lot more wrong deeds than that, and Xander's wrong deeds don't compare at all with Willow's. How about playing god by bringing Buffy back, and emotionally manipulating Xander into agreeing, not to mention lying to them about using black magic? How about abusing her magic and playing around with people in Smashed? Almost causing Dawn to die in a car accident? Her attempt to destroy the world is forgiven by Xander right away, also Buffy forgave her, and Dawn, and Giles, and there's no excuse to what she did, she was the one who put herself in that situation.

Xander's character is the way it is because he was raised in an alcoholic household where a point always gets across by yelling. He can come off like his father's son, acting exactly like his old man in so many situations -as listed above- and he knows that, that's why he was scared at the wedding, there's a possible chance he was going to grow bitter and angry just like his father and hurt Anya. Those visions are taken from Xander's deepest nightmares, and he got to live through every painful one of them. He didn't just see the visions, as you see his whole body goes into the ball, and he looks exactly the same in all the shots. He got to feel the hate for Anya and his kids, feel the bitterness, the anger, the humiliation of knowing that Anya cheated on him, and that Sarah isn't really his daughter. It's hard to just expect the guy who experiences all that to just wake up and act like a rational grown up.

I've sympathized more with Xander in Hell's Bells than Anya. While she does break my heart in the end, she didn't go through the roller coaster of emotions that Xander went through. That sad glance he shot his parents -who were fighting- as he said, "I don't wanna hurt you. Not that way." always gets to me.

I'm not excusing Xander here, but I do understand why he left. And if Willow gets a free pass for killing two humans, terrorizing and threatening to murder her friends, and her attempt to destroy the world, so should Xander.

I'm not saying that I don't think people should like Xander more than Dawn or Riley, because I agree with you: he's far more complex and interesting than both. Dawn's one of my favorite characters, but even I'll admit that when you get right down to it, she's fairly bland--she was never given much of a chance to really stand out, and develop a personality that truly grabbed people. Same for Riley and Kennedy. But it's the flat-out dislike of those three that I have a problem with, especially in comparison to Xander. The three of them land right near the top of nearly every "most-hated characters" list you'll ever see, yet none of them have ever done anything that actually deserves hatred. Not even close. Whereas Xander has done some truly awful things--to his closest friends!!--and yet, to quote Anya: "everyone still freaking loves him!" It's the hypocrisy that bugs me. If you wanna love Xander, go love Xander. Great. If you wanna not be a big fan of Dawn or Riley, that's cool, too. But save the "hate" for the characters that have it coming.

What about Willow, Spike, Buffy, and Giles? They've got more fans than Riley and Dawn, in fact, the majority of the Spike and Angel fans hate Riley more than the Xander fans do, and some for petty reasons like shipping. All those characters did more wrong than Riley and Dawn. It does come down to "more interesting" in the end. And I've met some fans who think of Riley in a very bad light, accusing him of being sexist and being intimidated by Buffy's strength -something that Xander isn't. Which I guess makes those fans appreciate Xander more than Riley, 'cause Xander obviously thinks of Buffy as his hero and isn't sexist.

Personally, I disagree with those accusations against Riley, but I'm giving you a reason why some prefer Xander over him.

Well, if he hadn't wronged them in the first place, that wouldn't have been a problem for him.

My point was that both Xander and Willow cheat on their partners, yet Willow gets a free pass and Xander doesn't, which shows that Xander doesn't always get away scott-free.

And, Willow controlled Tara by mind wiping her while Xander leaves Anya at the altar, Willow gets together with Tara eventually, but Anya doesn't truly forgive Xander. So, again, he doesn't get away scott-free.

considering how he reacted after she ran away to LA, or kept Angel's return a secret from everybody. I wouldn't exactly say that he was the greatest friend to her there. In fact, he was pretty much a confrontational horse's ass in both cases.

There's a difference between what Xander did and what Buffy did, Xander left for one week, while Buffy left for three months, no phone calls, no letters, nothing! Check Xander's reaction when Buffy comes back: happy and relieved tears in his eyes. That's his first reaction. The anger comes after Buffy decides to run away again. Granted, he didn't handle it right, and neither did Buffy, or Willow, or Joyce. The only one who handled Buffy's return the best is Giles.

And after the love and support she gave him following the wedding debacle, it was really big of him to be so understanding when he found out about her and Spike...

Oh, wait. He really wasn't, was he?

But he apologized and that's what counts. He admitted that he was an ass about it. And that was the beginning of his gradual development into Buffy's biggest supporter, to the point of being the only one in S7 who doesn't blame Spike for the killing in Sleeper while Willow, Anya and Dawn accuse Spike of going bad again.

Well, since Xander has no trouble jumping all over his friends for the mistakes they make, I'd say he had those scoldings coming, and he oughta be really thankful he has such good friends who didn't call him out more often for all the other mistakes he made.

Again, my point was that Xander doesn't always get a free pass. When he makes mistakes, he gets yelled at and have others be angry with him. Also, he doesn't always scold his friends, in fact, Xander was very supportive of Buffy after Angel lost his soul, check episode Phases where he comforted her about it. Once Angel killed Jenny, Xander had enough of being Supportive Guy, and thought that it's time for Buffy to take killing him seriously. I also don't remember Xander scolding Willow for abusing magic, mind wiping them, trying to destroy the world or even making a bunch of demons run after him trying to kill him in S4.

(Sidebar: Giles has a lot of nerve getting angry at Xander for falling asleep on werewolf-watch, seeing as how he did exactly the same thing in "Phases".)

I guess Giles learned his lesson, but then in the same episode -Beauty and the Beast- Buffy sleeps during Oz watch and Giles brushes her shoulder gently. Buffy always has a soft spot in Giles' heart.

Completely his own fault.

My point, again, is that Xander doesn't get away with his mistakes. At least not all of them like you guys imply.




Did fate "punish" him for making Willow feel that way, or did it "even the score" on him for the way he treated Buffy & Angel?

Both are the same in my book.

And was Willow really that big a pain to him about Anya?

Well, he does complain about it to Spike in Triangle, so I guess she does get on his nerves.

Guess I'm not reading the same fics as you. I've seen a ton of Spike bashing, but not much of Xander. I'm just going by the reactions of fans on boards like this one, where Xander lands near the top of just about everyone's lists whenever the "favorite characters" topics come up, and by the number of Xander avatars and banners you see.

I'm glad. After years of enduring Xander-hate, it's nice to see fans finally warming up to him. If you wanna see Xander bashing, you can visit Bangel and Spuffy websites, lots of that there.

Part of my reason for even starting this thread in the first place was that I've seen discussions of the negative actions of Spike, Willow, Angel, Faith, Anya, Wesley, etc., etc., but never Xander.

Actually, that's so weird. Most fans I know claim that it's not fair how many bash Xander for what he did and always excuse Willow, Faith, Angel, Buffy, and especially Spike for theirs. I wish I had your experience, I would've loved to live in a world with less Xander bashing.

I've checked the links you posted, I was really disappointed with the first link, because I didn't see much of Xander love in the lists, Xander is not #1 in any of them, except for mine. He doesn't make the list in most of them, actually. As for the second, it's a Xander Appreciation thread, of course, fans over there are gonna praise Xander.

[Executrix]

Mar 1, 2010 4:51:29 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

Oh man, for some reason I read that as disagree. No idea why. My bad.

It's no problem. I promise. I figured that's what happened. No biggie.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Mar 1, 2010 9:46:54 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

Feb 28, 2010 20:08:24 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Willow wasn't herself--the magic took her over and warped her to the point where she almost ceased to be Willow anymore.
Still, however much blame you wanna assign to her for that, it was one huge mistake spread over a very short time. You can also throw cheating on Oz, and violating Tara's mind into there for a total of three really unfortunate things that she did over the 7 years. As we've seen in this thread, Xander's got a whole list of bad moments, one right after another.

Willow did a lot more wrong deeds than that, and Xander's wrong deeds don't compare at all with Willow's. How about playing god by bringing Buffy back, and emotionally manipulating Xander into agreeing, not to mention lying to them about using black magic? How about abusing her magic and playing around with people in Smashed? Almost causing Dawn to die in a car accident? Her attempt to destroy the world is forgiven by Xander right away, also Buffy forgave her, and Dawn, and Giles, and there's no excuse to what she did, she was the one who put herself in that situation.

Okay, you've convinced me--mostly--when it comes to Willow. But look back and notice that I wasn't the one who brought her name up in the first place. That seemed like sort of a dicey comparison to begin with, given some of the stuff she's done. But I will point out that all the stuff you mention happened during S6 (Hey, she had a bad year--it happens ). Xander's stuff stretches all the way from S1 thru, if not 7, then the end of 6, anyway.

I'd like to say that maybe he's growing up by S7 and getting to the point where he won't make those kinds of mistakes or do those sorts of hurtful things to his friends anymore... but I think it was more of a case of the writers just not giving him, Willow, or Dawn much of their own storylines in S7.

Xander's character is the way it is because he was raised in an alcoholic household where a point always gets across by yelling.

For one thing, I don't like foisting those kinds of personality defects off on other people. "Oh, the reason that man became a serial rapist and murderer was because his parents never let him have a puppy when he was a kid." For every example of someone turning out defective because they came from a dysfunctional household, there's a matching example of someone who rose above those things and became a wonderful person. I'd put a lot of that down to innate strength-of-character, and if Xander turned out the way he did, then maybe his inner character has some holes in it.

And it'd be nice if you could chalk up some of his angry, confrontational outbursts to him just doing what he'd seen his parents do all his life, but I don't think that's it. He doesn't treat Willow's, or Anya's, or Giles's, or Dawn's mistakes that way. Only Buffy's, and really only when it comes to Angel or Spike. It's not about coming from an alcoholic household--it's about petty jealousy.

It's interesting that it's only Riley that he doesn't have any real problems with, and he even tries to talk Buffy into hanging on to the guy when he's getting ready to leave. Part of that is probably that he's in a relationship of his own at that time that he's very happy with, but I think that a lot of it is that he recognizes that Riley is a good man, and he's the one guy that Xander can stomach losing Buffy to.

I've sympathized more with Xander in Hell's Bells than Anya. While she does break my heart in the end, she didn't go through the roller coaster of emotions that Xander went through. That sad glance he shot his parents -who were fighting- as he said, "I don't wanna hurt you. Not that way." always gets to me.

It still came down to him having a choice at the end of the ep: break the heart of the woman he loved, or don't. He decided to break her heart. I have no sympathy for him in this case. Zero.

There's a difference between what Xander did and what Buffy did, Xander left for one week, while Buffy left for three months, no phone calls, no letters, nothing!

Buffy ran out on her friends, and stuck them with her evil-fighting duties. Yes: Bad. And her friends (and mom) all gave her hell for it when she came back.

Xander broke a promise of lifelong commitment with the woman he loved, dumped her in front of all her friends and loved ones on what should have been the happiest day of her life, disappeared for a week, and when he got back, how did Buffy and Willow react? They got up and gave him a hug, and were nothing but loving and supportive. No backlash from them at all.

Check Xander's reaction when Buffy comes back: happy and relieved tears in his eyes. That's his first reaction. The anger comes after Buffy decides to run away again. Granted, he didn't handle it right, and neither did Buffy, or Willow, or Joyce.

The happy relief lasted about 2 hours, and then they switched to resentful and pissed. It boiled over when they found out she was thinking of leaving again, but those feelings were there the whole time.

My point, again, is that Xander doesn't get away with his mistakes. At least not all of them like you guys imply.

After thinking about it a little more, I'm not sure I even agree with your original point, that Buffy felt she couldn't trust him with her relationships with her vampire boyfriends. What do you think she would have done differently with them if she had trusted him? Sit around in his basement, watching movies with him and Anya? She was very private in her relationships with Angel and Spike, for very different reasons, and if she let Willow in on some of the details (esp. back in the Angel days), I'd say that had more to do with just feeling more comfortable sharing things with another girl than it did with any lack of trust in Xander.

I guess Giles learned his lesson, but then in the same episode -Beauty and the Beast- Buffy sleeps during Oz watch and Giles brushes her shoulder gently. Buffy always has a soft spot in Giles' heart.

Watcher's pet.

My original point of him largely getting a free pass was referring more to the fans than the other characters. The defenses in this thread of... well, pretty much everything he's ever done ( ) kinda helps prove the "fan" thing. You've done a really good job of pointing out that his friends do step up and call him out on his mistakes at times, but in most cases, the things he takes heat from them for are fairly minor, and even then he doesn't take much heat.

But then look at some of his worst acts:

- Treating Willow so insensitively in S1, rubbing his interest in Buffy in her face to the point that he gets her to help him rehearse asking Buffy out! I disagree with buffyfan21 on this that he was too ditzy to realize how she felt. Before "The Pack"... maybe. Maybe he recognized her feelings only on a subconscious level, and it took the hyena posession to bring them out, but after "The Pack" he absolutely knew.

- Being a jealous ass to Buffy over Angel, including trying to get people to kill the guy for him on two occasions.

- Treating a spell that raised a murderous demon like it was a mystical fortune cookie. He doesn't deserve any blame before the first death, because he didn't know that anything bad was going to happen, but keeping his mouth shut after that had the potential to be the worst thing he ever did, and he ended up getting off really lucky. You could even look at this as a precursor to what happened at the wedding: he screwed up, knew he'd screwed up, but couldn't work up the courage to speak up and admit his mistake and save things from getting much worse later on.

- And of course, the wedding. 'Nuf said with that one.

Four incredibly-hurtful, and potentially lethal things that he did to the people closest to him, and yet he takes very little-to-no anger or blame from his friends for them. I'd call that "getting a free pass". Getting yelled at for falling asleep on werewolf-watch just doesn't compare.

I've checked the links you posted, I was really disappointed with the first link, because I didn't see much of Xander love in the lists, Xander is not #1 in any of them, except for mine. He doesn't make the list in most of them, actually. As for the second, it's a Xander Appreciation thread, of course, fans over there are gonna praise Xander.

Well, remember that the first one is Top 10 characters spread across all five of Joss's works, not just "Buffy", so even most of the people who don't list Xander in their top 10 give him an honorable mention. Strip away the FF, DH, Dr. H, and AtS characters, and he's probably in most of the responders' Top 5 BtVS ones.

*karma* for a great post, even if I still disagree with a lot of it.

[gumgnome]

Feb 27, 2010 14:39:21 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

Reading this thread confirms what I've been saying all the time. Xander's character is the most human, most relatable, his flaws and mistakes are too real that they affect the fans more than other characters' mistakes. You read a lot about fans forgiving Willow for attempting to destroy the world or Spike for attempting to rape Buffy, but way less about fans forgiving Xander for leaving Anya at the altar, even though attempts to kill, rape and destroy the world are way more evil and awful than ditching someone in their wedding day. But, being left in the altar is more real and closer to real life than destroying the world, it's something that happens to us quite often -we don't often hear about a close friend going crazy and killing others. Xander's mistakes hit fans harder than other characters -who always have the excuse of being ruled by their demons or magic- the only excuse Xander has is being human and nothing more.

Personally, that's why Xander is my favorite. I love that his actions are his own, unlike with Spike and Angel, where you hear fans saying, hey, now they got their souls, what they did before doesn't count. Xander doesn't get to have that. Which is why I find him more interesting than Spike and Angel combined, same goes to Giles. (And this is coming from someone who considers Spike their second favorite character.)

As for free passes, all characters get free passes from time to time. Which sucks. I want characters to deal with the consequences of their actions. It's boring when they get a free pass.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Karma! I do think that Xander's wrong for doing these things, but that doesn't mean that I hate Xander. I don't hate Kennedy, Riley or Dawn either (well, I hate Dawn a little bit in S6, but that's digressing...) so maybe I'm not big on the hate. However, judging Xander's crimes as being worse than Spike's, Angel's, Willow's, Anya's etc. just because his, as sosalola says, are crimes of realistic proportion, is ludicrous.