Does Xander Get a Free Pass?

[El Diablo Robotico]

It was "Xander Appreciation Month" here recently, and I was just looking at the thread about it, which included a poll where almost 90% of the voters said that he was among their top 5 favorite characters. He's also getting a lot of love right now in the "Top 10 Favorite Whedonverse Characters" thread. In some ways I understand that, because he's the most "everyman" of the BtVS characters, the one that most of us probably most closely relate to. And he's certainly got some real strong points: he's brave despite not having any powers, he's a very loyal friend (most of the time), and he's funny (for 4 seasons anyway; after "The Replacement", not so much). But I can't help it--I don't really like the guy that much. For me, his worst moments are so bad that they just outstrip all his other many positive ones.

For starters, we're talking about a guy that left his bride at the frickin' altar!! I think that has to be possibly the worst thing one person can do to another without getting arrested for it (murder, rape, arson, etc., all being worse, obviously, but also against the law). In fact, an argument could be made that this might be the single worst act committed by any character on either show. Yes, others did things that, on the face of it, you could rank higher, but they either didn't have souls (Spike, and possibly Anya), were under the influence of something (Willow), or were doing it for a good reason, such as trying to save a life (Wesley). Xander has no excuses. He did what he did out of fear and personal weakness.

So that's bad enough that we could almost stop right there, but let's keep going. When he finds out that the girl he's just dumped has moved on and had sex with another guy, he reacts by taking out an axe and setting out to murder that guy. I don't know--is this a normal, acceptable reaction in today's society? 'Cause the last time I found out that one of my exes had a new boyfriend, I didn't go off and try to kill the guy. Am I alone in that? Did anyone else do what Xander did, and is now logging into SA from a state correctional facility somewhere?

And if leaving Anya at the altar was his lowest moment, then the argument he has with her there at the end of "Entropy" has to be #2 on his list of lowlights. As Anya herself says, where does he get off judging her? How dare he act like she had sex with Spike solely as a way of hurting him (Xander, not Spike ), and getting back at him? I swear, whenever I watch this scene, I wanna climb right into my TV set and beat the crap out of him.

And there are other things. The way he treats Buffy with regards to Angel--the argument in the library about re-ensouling him in "Becoming, Pt. 1"; and the infamous "Kick his ass," line one ep later. "Say, you're evil--get on me?" in "Seeing Red" (which is another moment where I wanna reach into my TV and give him a good hard smack). And the fact that even a year later ("Storyteller"), he still thinks walking out during the wedding was the right thing to do.

I made this topic about Xander, because I've never seen any of this really brought up about him before, and I do think he gets almost a complete free pass by the fans for all of it, but of course he's not the only one who this applies to. Spike tried to rape a woman, and not only do the fans still love him, but many of them still want him to end up living happily ever after with the attempted-rapee! Willow violated the mind of the woman she loved, turned into a junkie, killed a couple of guys, and tried to destroy the world. And Bennett... well, I won't mention any specifics, 'cause I don't wanna spoil it for those in other countries who may not have seen S2 of "Dollhouse" yet, but even after everything that happened in that first ep she was in, the fans think she's great. I don't get it.

I suppose it's nice that in the cases of these characters, the fans have a forgive-and-forget attitude. But the thing that really bothers me about it is the double-standard. Everything these characters have done and they're still adored, yet look on any most-hated list, and you'll almost always find Riley, Dawn, and Kennedy. Riley because he's "too boring", Dawn because she's "too whiny", and Kennedy because she's "too bratty", but find me something any of those three have done that's even close to as bad what Xander, Spike, Willow, Faith, and Anya have done. 'Cause I just ain't seein' it.

So what do you think? Do the fans let some of these characters off too easy for their mis-deeds, or are they just properly-compassionate?

[drusillacakes]

I think Xander let his relationship with Anya snowball to the point that he knew he didn't want to marry her but he didn't know how to say it. In RL, if a man did that we'd be faster to jump on him and call him cowardly but we so rarely live in a world of absolutes, that because we know Xander, or at least, we know enough of his story, and his personality, we chalk it up to him making very stupid choices.

And you're totally right about Spike. But because the whole of his story and his redemption is so compelling, and let's face it, his fans (I included) are just so smitten with him, we may be quicker to forgive. Rape of any sort is unforgivable, true, but if you watch or know anything about soap opera culture, this rape storyline is in there a lot, and it's interesting how fans can forgive or even become obsessed with these hypothetical rapists. It sort of flies in the face of logic, right? That's why I have no answer.

Ultimately I think we just live in a world where we have to escape reality. For the longest time, I did not like Riley because he was "too boring," but as I read S8, and then saw Marc Blucas on Castle, I'm coming around to Riley as a character. It makes no rational sense (Marc Blucas' character on Castle has nothing to do with Riley but because my brain is making this connection, I'm like, Oooh... Riley! Not bad...)

Perhaps we just live in a world where the worst thing you could be is boring, bratty, or whiny.

[tkts]

What bothers me more than leaving Anya, even, is the way he sometimes treats Willow during Season 1.

I really wanted to believe that he was completely oblivious to her crush on him. If he were, it would have been OK. But the dialogue makes it pretty clear that he knows, and in light of that, things like him making Willow listen as he rehearses asking out Buffy seem incredibly cruel.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Feb 24, 2010 22:21:25 GMT -5 drusillacakes said:

I think Xander let his relationship with Anya snowball to the point that he knew he didn't want to marry her but he didn't know how to say it. In RL, if a man did that we'd be faster to jump on him and call him cowardly but we so rarely live in a world of absolutes, that because we know Xander, or at least, we know enough of his story, and his personality, we chalk it up to him making very stupid choices.

And if he'd backed out of it a month beforehand, or a week, or even a day, it wouldn't have been as bad. Bad, yes, but it's just so much worse to let the woman get all dressed up in her beautiful gown, and to let all the guests get all fancy, and for all the $$ to be spent and impossible to get back. He obviously knew for a long time that he didn't think he wanted to do this, after all, and he let it go as far as he did because he was a coward. Ironic, considering how he's so brave when it comes to fighting monsters, but he was too much of a wimp to tell his fiance that he didn't want to marry her anymore.

That's just one of the many reasons that I find the
(spoiler for S8, #28)

SPOILER: Click to show

Xander/Dawn thing so far-fetched. How could Dawn, or Buffy or Willow (who's "gay now", but not necessarily "gay later") for that matter, ever trust this guy in a relationship, after being there at the wedding and seeing what he did to Anya? A guy who can walk out on one wedding is certainly capable of walking out on a second. Is Dawn really that sure that all the issues that kept him from going thru with that marriage are settled now?

Feb 24, 2010 23:41:19 GMT -5 tkts said:

What bothers me more than leaving Anya, even, is the way he sometimes treats Willow during Season 1.

I really wanted to believe that he was completely oblivious to her crush on him. If he were, it would have been OK. But the dialogue makes it pretty clear that he knows, and in light of that, things like him making Willow listen as he rehearses asking out Buffy seem incredibly cruel.

That's a great point that I completely forgot about. He makes it very clear in "The Pack" that he knows all about Willow's crush, so to ignore it and constantly wave his interest in Buffy under Willow's nose wasn't one of the greatest things he ever did, either. But then he even compounds that, because once she finally has a boyfriend of her own, suddenly now he's interested in her, which was a really crappy thing to do to not only her, but Cordy and Oz, too.

And that's my real problem with him, I think. Like I said, only he and Faith have no decent excuses for what they did. In a completely academic sense, what Faith did was worse--she murdered a guy (the Spock-ologist; the deputy mayor was an accident). But from our perspective as fans, I'd say that Xander's crimes were even more awful, because he hurt the people closest to him, and he did it knowingly, and almost deliberately. It's hard to feel to angry at Faith for killing Lester the Volcano Guy, because we didn't even know him. Be we do know Anya, and Buffy, and Willow, and Cordy, and Oz, and we care about them, and just for me personally, I have a hard time forgiving Xander for what he did to them.

(Oh, and another wonderful Xander moment I forgot to mention originally: telling Riley all about Buffy&Angel, none of which he had any right to share. That was up to Buffy to handle, to decide what to tell and what not to.)

[henzINNIT]

In season 7, it's not that Xander still thinks jilting Anya at the altar was a good choice. He never did. He thinks it was right not to marry her, but he always said he regretted not stopping things sooner.

Xander is a coward, and was quite a bitter teen. I like him because he's flawed and working through it.

You raise a good point about character fan-love though. I like damn near every character on the show, including Dawn, Riley, Connor (one of my favourite Angel characters) and Kennedy. I've never been one to ship, or take a dislike to a character because of their actions against another character. The character flaws make them interesting and real.

[lightandmagic]

OH MY GOD, THANK YOU.

I despise Xander with a passion. With a passion.

The reason for me is because he's an incredibly bitter and jealous person but will never admit that he's flawed. He also isn't that good of a friend to either Willow or Buffy, specifically the latter. I lost all respect for Xander at the end of season 2 when he tells Buffy that Willow said, "kick his ass." The whole situation came off to me as Xander being incredibly manipulative; just because he doesn't like Angel he tries to show that Willow is also against Angel so that Buffy will kill Angel.

And every time I try to begin respecting him again, I just watch through the seasons and watch as he is incredibly cruel to Buffy on multiple occasions. In Dead Man's Party he attacks Buffy for problems that aren't really her fault, and I was so glad when Cordelia defended (well failed to, but she attempted) her. He just comes off as a bitter, jealous individual and seems angry that Buffy is depressed because she killed someone she loved deeply. Really Xander? Really? Auuughgghghg. I want to strangle him.

These actions are then repeated later in the season when he discovers Angel is alive. Like you Diablo, I too want to jump in the tv screen and want to punch him. Once again, to me, he seems to be attacking Buffy because he's still infatuated with her and I'm so glad Buffy raises that point. The only person that really deserved to be angry at that intervention is Giles. The rest of them are fully in the right to be concerned but to come at it like Xander did is just inexcusable. And despite how he feels about the Angel situation, convincing Faith to kill Angel is incredibly manipulative and he wholly takes advantage of Faith's ignorance in the situation. Trying to kill someone you don't like, yet you know is good, is just kind of evil. It's inexcusable.

Then his actions to Anya, specifically in Entropy where he is angry at her for sleeping with Spike makes me want to once again jump in the TV and punch him square in the face. You left her Xander. She can do whatever the hell she wants. Hell, if I was her I would sleep with Spike on Xander's bed and take tons of pictures for him to see. He completely devastated her, embarrassed her and especially knowing her past and Anya's distrust in love he should have known how much it would have damaged her. Xander left her. She can do whatever the hell she wants.

I think the reason why I hate Xander so much is because he doesn't even feel bad for his actions half the time. He does incredibly manipulative and deceitful things and then never apologizes. Plus the majority of these actions are petty, pathetic and he barely has any justification for the monstrosity and cruelty of them other than jealously and bitterness. Whereas I feel like a lot of the other character you mentioned either eventually do feel terrible for their actions and are apologetic over them (ex. Willow, Anya, Spike ) or I feel are somewhat justified in their actions (ex. Bennett, but this is coming from a particularly vengeful person).

I just HATE Xander and I am so glad someone else does not enjoy his life. Rant over.

Edit/P.S.: I lied. Rant's not over. Banner at the top reminded me of some things. Xander is also incredibly cruel to Cordelia throughout season 3 after he cheated on her! At first he tries to apologize and when Cordelia doesn't forgive him he suddenly just throws it all out the window and acts like a huge dick to her all the time. YOU CHEATED ON HER! She has the right to act like a bitch. You, Mr. Harris, do not. You should be grovelling dammit.

Okay I think the rant is now over.

[The Girl In Question]

Those things you mentioned always pissed me off about Xander. Also I hate how he gets angry at Buffy for sleeping with a murderer...when he's doing the same thing with Anya.

Although when he pulled that axe out when he found out Anya slept with Spike, I think that also had to do with Spike being a demon. Sleeping with ex-girlfriend + demon = Kill kill kill!

Xander is very similar to someone I know in real life. When I love him, I really love him. When I hate him, I want to rip off his face...Especially the way he treated me-er Willow in Season 1...what? I don't have issues...

As for the others:

Spike didn't have a soul when he tried to rape Buffy. He's done equally horrible things without a soul (murder for example), so I think if anyone loved him before the attempted rape, they'd love him afterwards. When he gets a soul, I forgive him. If he tried to rape her with a soul, it'd be a no-go.

I hated Willow when she did those things, too.

I absolutely love Bennett. Part of her appeal was that she was a vengeful mad scientist IMO. I don't know what that says about me...

[NightlySorrow]

Xander is a saint compared to almost everyone around him. If he gets blame for some of the negative things he's done, then the other characters must be destroyed as well, but much harsher.

[CourtneyDax]

I think what Xander did in Hells Bells was the worst thing that made no sense on BtVS. The sheer lack of reasoning made me seriously question Xander's intelligence for a really long time, then I got over it.

[tkts]

Feb 27, 2010 1:12:28 GMT -5 CourtneyDax said:

I think what Xander did in Hells Bells was the worst thing that made no sense on BtVS. The sheer lack of reasoning made me seriously question Xander's intelligence for a really long time, then I got over it.

It makes more sense in light of what we see of Xander's parents in that episode. He grew up in an angry, dysfunctional household, and he can see himself and Anya ending up in the same place, and it terrifies him.

[CourtneyDax]

Feb 27, 2010 1:43:09 GMT -5 tkts said:

It makes more sense in light of what we see of Xander's parents in that episode. He grew up in an angry, dysfunctional household, and he can see himself and Anya ending up in the same place, and it terrifies him.

Hm, I can see that side of the argument, but my thinking for it was that Xander should've known that he's not his parents. He is his own man, but I guess thats a weak counterargument.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Gee, magic, how do you really feel? Maybe we should re-name this thread the "We Hate Xander Club". I'll be the treasurer, and you can be the recording secretary. ;D

I agree with just about everything you said, but still, I don't hate Xander. There are very few characters I'd apply that term to, and they're all very, very minor--like the magic shop lady in "Lovers Walk" ("So, did you find a 'spellbook'?"). I hate Xander in his bad moments... of which, sadly, there are many. When he's insensitive, jealous, petty, self-righteous, and cowardly-hurtful. But I like him in his great moments, and there are plenty of those, too. Just not enough to cancel out all the negative ones.

The one thing I'll disagree with you about is that I don't remember him treating Cordy all that badly in the second half of S3. Can you think of any examples? All I really remember is him paying the rest of the money for her prom dress, which was one of his really great acts, the kind of thing that makes so many people love him.

Feb 26, 2010 17:27:52 GMT -5 The Girl In Question said:

Those things you mentioned always pissed me off about Xander. Also I hate how he gets angry at Buffy for sleeping with a murderer...when he's doing the same thing with Anya.

Y'know, that's another thing I forgot all about! He's just come off a long-term relationship with a woman who "killed more men than smallpox", but he has the nerve to condemn Buffy for sleeping with a guy who "slaughtered half of Europe". Double-standard much?

Wow, I'm discovering I dislike this guy even more than I thought!

Although when he pulled that axe out when he found out Anya slept with Spike, I think that also had to do with Spike being a demon. Sleeping with ex-girlfriend + demon = Kill kill kill!

Except that everything in the Buffyverse is a supernatural metaphor for real life. So remove the supernatural overlay for a sec, and Spike's demon-ness along with, and obviously Xander's not going to try to kill him, but it still translates to him heading out to beat the crap out of a guy for daring to have sex with a woman he just left at the damn altar!

Spike didn't have a soul when he tried to rape Buffy. He's done equally horrible things without a soul (murder for example), so I think if anyone loved him before the attempted rape, they'd love him afterwards. When he gets a soul, I forgive him. If he tried to rape her with a soul, it'd be a no-go.

See, I'm not sure I do forgive him for that. If he'd never gotten that soul, I'm not sure how I would've felt about him afterwards. But the fact remains that he did get the soul, and even tho you don't notice a dramatic difference in his personality, a la Angel/Angelus, he becomes a completely different person after that. I can't hate Angel for all the things Angelus did, and I can't hate S7/AtS S5 Spike for what unsouled-Spike tried to do to Buffy.

Feb 26, 2010 22:19:12 GMT -5 NightlySorrow said:

Xander is a saint compared to almost everyone around him. If he gets blame for some of the negative things he's done, then the other characters must be destroyed as well, but much harsher.

Okay, cool--I was really hoping someone would step up and defend Xander! Can you give some specifics to back that up? Maybe compare him to Buffy and Riley, for example, and argue why he's more saintly than they are? Because right now, I'm thinking that Riley is five times the man Xander is.



Yeah, I really just said that, and I'll say it again: Riley is a far better man than Xander. He just happened to commit the unpardonable sin (in many's eyes) of not being Angel or Spike, and yet daring to date Buffy, anyway...

[Emmie]

El D, I happen to know you used to be the member of a secret organization hellbent on destroying Xander and all he stood for. How's that going btw?

[lightandmagic]

Feb 27, 2010 1:53:40 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Gee, magic, how do you really feel? Maybe we should re-name this thread the "We Hate Xander Club". I'll be the treasurer, and you can be the recording secretary. ;D

Deal! Except you don't fully hate him, but I appreciate the thought. Haha. I think I got a bit ranty but I honestly just cannot stand the character.

The one thing I'll disagree with you about is that I don't remember him treating Cordy all that badly in the second half of S3. Can you think of any examples? All I really remember is him paying the rest of the money for her prom dress, which was one of his really great acts, the kind of thing that makes so many people love him.

Hm. No specific examples other than him and her just trading insults. For example, before he bought Cordelia the dress (and as much as I don't like Xander, I will definitely give him credit for that, it was an incredibly sweet thing to do) he essentially went in there to make fun of her/annoy her/piss her off. I don't know. It just seems incredibly disrespectful to act like that to someone who you cheated on. I'm sure if I watched season 3 again I could find some specific incidents.

Yeah, I really just said that, and I'll say it again: Riley is a far better man than Xander. He just happened to commit the unpardonable sin (in many's eyes) of not being Angel or Spike, and yet daring to date Buffy, anyway...

I also definitely think Riley is a far better man than Xander. Although near the end I wasn't exactly the biggest fan and I think it's more than just not being Angel or Spike (although I'm sure for many fans it is essentially just this reason). For me, the whole vamp biting thing was essentially cheating on Buffy considering how vampires are essentially an allegory for sex half the time. Also his reasons were, well, just not that great. It seemed selfish to me to once again cheat on Buffy just because she's not paying you enough attention. Which I can slightly understand as he constantly has an inferiority complex when it comes around to her, but she was going through her mother dying, people aren't exactly the most attentive/focused when one of their family members are dying. He should have had the decency to try and stick by her.

I still think he's better than Xander because he at least felt bad for his actions. Xander's just an ass half the time and then moves along all "lalala man I rock so much. I am always right. I could never do any wrong!"

[buffyfan21]

I have been reading through this thread and all of you bring up some really interesting arguments. I too feel that Xander was an ass many times throughout the series. Like many of you, there were times when I just wanted to jump through the TV and smack him. There are moments when he had me yelling things at my TV like, "are you kidding me?!" Moments that get to me are ones already mentioned. Specifically, the intervention in S3 after the gang discovers that Angel is alive. What Xander says to Buffy here about wanting to forget about Jenny's murder so she can have Angel back is taking it waaay too far in my opinion. This is one of the moments throughout the series that really gets me fuming. I am so glad that Buffy called him out on his jealousy this ep. As lightandmagic said, the only person who really had a right to be angry with Buffy here is Giles, for keeping such a huge secret from him. In Dead Mans Party, we see Xander once again coming down really hard on Buffy and embarrassing her in front of everyone. Once again, he does this without knowing all the facts. These examples show just how hypocritical and judgmental Xander can be at times. He likes to act as if he has perfect and has never done any wrong, yet he has no qualms about calling others out on their mistakes. And of course there's leaving Anya at the alter.

The other side of the argument, though, is that for all the bad Xander has done, we can't forget about the good. Yes, he's not perfect, he has made mistakes, but perhaps that's part of what makes him such an appealing character, the fact that we can see a little of ourselves in him. No character in the verse is perfect, so if Xander is to be held accountable for his shortcomings, I think it only fair that the others should be as well. Xander has made his share if inexcusable acts, but I try not to let this take away from the good aspects of his character. Plus the fact that he is able to evoke such emotion in me, is one of the reason why I love his character.

[Lukee]

Feb 24, 2010 20:14:38 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

For starters, we're talking about a guy that left his bride at the frickin' altar!! I think that has to be possibly the worst thing one person can do to another without getting arrested for it (murder, rape, arson, etc., all being worse, obviously, but also against the law). In fact, an argument could be made that this might be the single worst act committed by any character on either show. Yes, others did things that, on the face of it, you could rank higher, but they either didn't have souls (Spike, and possibly Anya), were under the influence of something (Willow), or were doing it for a good reason, such as trying to save a life (Wesley). Xander has no excuses. He did what he did out of fear and personal weakness.

I hardly think that, that was the worse thing one can do to someone other then things against the law. You have heard of affairs and such right? I agree it is not a nice thing to do, but you can not blame him and pin it down to him being weak like it's a fault. Everyone has their own weaknesses and fears. This was Xanders, he didn't know he felt that way really until he was shown his [fake] future. It opens up the door that was locking away his insecurities about this. You can go through life not really realizing what really makes you scared or weak until you are faced with it. Xander was faced with this and it and he couldn't handle it. This does not make him a bad man. He didn't want to hurt her. He could have easily have just not turned up and left Anya wondering why or where he was. Yet he didn't he was man enough to go to her and tell her that he couldn't marry her. This is a strength and I admire him for it. He faced up to what he had to do and he didn't run from it. He never stopped loving her or to be with her, he just couldn't marry her.

Feb 24, 2010 20:14:38 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

So that's bad enough that we could almost stop right there, but let's keep going. When he finds out that the girl he's just dumped has moved on and had sex with another guy, he reacts by taking out an axe and setting out to murder that guy. I don't know--is this a normal, acceptable reaction in today's society? 'Cause the last time I found out that one of my exes had a new boyfriend, I didn't go off and try to kill the guy. Am I alone in that? Did anyone else do what Xander did, and is now logging into SA from a state correctional facility somewhere?

Xander still loved her and Spike is a demon... Now if Anya had, had sex with a human do you think Xander would have done that? Not only is Spike a vampire but he is also someone Xander hates so yes why wouldn't he get an axe to attack Spike. If he did this to a human then I would understand the it being bad deal but it's Spike so I was on "Faster, pussycat, kill, kill" team.

Feb 24, 2010 20:14:38 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

And if leaving Anya at the altar was his lowest moment, then the argument he has with her there at the end of "Entropy" has to be #2 on his list of lowlights. As Anya herself says, where does he get off judging her? How dare he act like she had sex with Spike solely as a way of hurting him (Xander, not Spike ), and getting back at him? I swear, whenever I watch this scene, I wanna climb right into my TV set and beat the crap out of him.

True he can't really judge her, but you have to remember he still loves her and he can't understand why she would go to Spike, not only because Xander hates Spike but also how quick she got with someone else must have hurt him too. I am not saying though that Anya has not been hurt by all of this she has a lot but you can't forget how hurt Xander must be also.

Feb 24, 2010 20:14:38 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

And there are other things. The way he treats Buffy with regards to Angel--the argument in the library about re-ensouling him in "Becoming, Pt. 1"; and the infamous "Kick his ass," line one ep later. "Say, you're evil--get on me?" in "Seeing Red" (which is another moment where I wanna reach into my TV and give him a good hard smack). And the fact that even a year later ("Storyteller"), he still thinks walking out during the wedding was the right thing to do.

The way Xander treats Buffy about the whole Angel thing, well for one he loves Buffy and a] was looking out for her, he didn't want her to get hurt and he knew Angel would hurt her. b] Xander was young back then, new to the whole demon world and Buffy was now dating a vampire. He wouldn't be human if he didn't call her up on it. c] Xander was truthful to Buffy, surely it would be worse of him to lie to her and not tell her what he really thinks?

It angers me when friends tip toe around friends not telling them what they really think or lying to them to make their friends feel better. True you have times and places to lie to help make a friend feel better but again if you really are friends then you have to be straight with them even if it means telling them that their boyfriend is a d*ck.
And this is what Xander is, he is the best type of person you would want as a friend, he is their for you but will also stop you and tell you, you are being stupid.





I understand some points in the thread but with most of them I do not agree.


I am a big fan of Xander due to him being one of the most real character and the one you cam mostly relate to. Yes he has flaws but what character on Buffy or in life does not? He's not perfect, he doesn't always handle things too well. Yet his heart is pure and his intentions are always good [true he doesn't go about some of them the right way, "Kick his ass" moment shows that] but they are always good, and he loves his friends more then words could say.
He is the knight on the white horse in Buffy, he always comes to help his friends and he is always protective of them. He faced up Angel in the A&E when Angel could have took him out even though cops and docs were around Xander knew this but still faced up to him. Xander faced an evil Willow his love, his heart saved her and the world.

Xander I feel gets no more a free pass then Willow or Buffy does.

[buffyfan21]

Feb 24, 2010 23:41:19 GMT -5 tkts said:

What bothers me more than leaving Anya, even, is the way he sometimes treats Willow during Season 1.

I really wanted to believe that he was completely oblivious to her crush on him. If he were, it would have been OK. But the dialogue makes it pretty clear that he knows, and in light of that, things like him making Willow listen as he rehearses asking out Buffy seem incredibly cruel.

I can't really get too mad at Xander here. You must remember that in S1 Xander was quite ditzy. I find it entirely believable that he would be unaware of Willow's feelings. He was too busy having Buffy on the brain. What does make me mad, however, is when Willow starts dating Oz and then Xander is suddenly interested in her. The whole, "you're unattainable so now I must have you." He got used to being the prince in Willow's life and didn't like it when he was being pushed aside for someone else. Which is pretty selfish if you think about it, did he expect her to pine away for him forever while knowing that he would never be able to truly return her feelings?

[sosa lola]

Reading this thread confirms what I've been saying all the time. Xander's character is the most human, most relatable, his flaws and mistakes are too real that they affect the fans more than other characters' mistakes. You read a lot about fans forgiving Willow for attempting to destroy the world or Spike for attempting to rape Buffy, but way less about fans forgiving Xander for leaving Anya at the altar, even though attempts to kill, rape and destroy the world are way more evil and awful than ditching someone in their wedding day. But, being left in the altar is more real and closer to real life than destroying the world, it's something that happens to us quite often -we don't often hear about a close friend going crazy and killing others. Xander's mistakes hit fans harder than other characters -who always have the excuse of being ruled by their demons or magic- the only excuse Xander has is being human and nothing more.

Personally, that's why Xander is my favorite. I love that his actions are his own, unlike with Spike and Angel, where you hear fans saying, hey, now they got their souls, what they did before doesn't count. Xander doesn't get to have that. Which is why I find him more interesting than Spike and Angel combined, same goes to Giles. (And this is coming from someone who considers Spike their second favorite character.)

As for free passes, all characters get free passes from time to time. Which sucks. I want characters to deal with the consequences of their actions. It's boring when they get a free pass.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Feb 27, 2010 5:10:54 GMT -5 Emmie said:

El D, I happen to know you used to be the member of a secret organization hellbent on destroying Xander and all he stood for. How's that going btw?

Look around. Seems to be going fairly well, wouldn't you say?

Tho for the record, don't forget that my main problem was with the possibility of him getting involved with Buffy or Dawn. For one thing, I don't think he's good enough for either of them, and they both deserve someone way better than him (like Riley, for example ;D ); and for another, where's the evidence that the things that kept him from committing to Anya have been resolved? As a viewer/reader, have you seen any strong indication in S7/8 that he's matured, gotten over those things, and won't break any other girls' hearts the way he did Anya's?

Feb 27, 2010 6:10:20 GMT -5 lightandmagic said:

Hm. No specific examples other than him and her just trading insults. For example, before he bought Cordelia the dress (and as much as I don't like Xander, I will definitely give him credit for that, it was an incredibly sweet thing to do) he essentially went in there to make fun of her/annoy her/piss her off. I don't know. It just seems incredibly disrespectful to act like that to someone who you cheated on. I'm sure if I watched season 3 again I could find some specific incidents.

Okay, true, but to be fair, that's the way their relationship worked when they were going out, and even before they started going out--they were always trading insults. I think Xander tried to back off of that at first, right after they broke up, but when she came back at him with a vengeance (like telling everyone about his family's drunken Christmas fights), he defended himself by retaliating, and it just kind of fell back into the previous status quo from there.

I also definitely think Riley is a far better man than Xander. Although near the end I wasn't exactly the biggest fan and I think it's more than just not being Angel or Spike (although I'm sure for many fans it is essentially just this reason). For me, the whole vamp biting thing was essentially cheating on Buffy considering how vampires are essentially an allegory for sex half the time.

Also true. But whereas Riley cheated on his girlfriend on a metaphorical level, Xander cheated on his on an actual level. That's either a wash, or advantage: Riley.

Feb 27, 2010 13:16:48 GMT -5 Lukee said:

I hardly think that, that was the worse thing one can do to someone other then things against the law. You have heard of affairs and such right?

An affair. You mean like when you're dating someone, and you go behind their back and cheat on them with someone else? Oh, wait, Xander's done that, too, hasn't he?

And an argument could probably be made that having an affair is as bad as leaving someone at the altar, but is it worse? No, I don't think so. When you cheat on someone, it's usually just a private situation that only the 3 people involved know about (unless you're Tiger Woods). It doesn't even have to be the end of the relationship, if the cheater and the cheatee think things can be patched up, and the affair put behind them (Willow and Oz).

But leaving someone at the altar, the relationship is over, and it's not over privately. It's over very publicly, and in a very humiliating way, right there in front of all of the other person's family and friends. You're also inconveniencing all the guests who had to get dressed up and show up for nothing, and you're wasting thousands of dollars that can't be gotten back. Normally that's the bride's family's money, but in this case, Xander's own parents paid for it!

I agree it is not a nice thing to do, but you can not blame him and pin it down to him being weak like it's a fault.

So who's fault was it? Was someone holding a gun on him, saying "Get married or else?"

Everyone has their own weaknesses and fears. This was Xanders, he didn't know he felt that way really until he was shown his [fake] future. It opens up the door that was locking away his insecurities about this. You can go through life not really realizing what really makes you scared or weak until you are faced with it. Xander was faced with this and it and he couldn't handle it.

He knew way before seeing those fake-future scenes that he wasn't ready to get married. You could see him struggling with it for most of the year. He owed it to her to speak up and say something earlier. Either see if she would be willing to postpone it for a little while (unlikely), or go ahead and just call it off. Otherwise, be a man and go thru with it. If those fears came true and it turned out to be a mistake, it wasn't a permanent mistake. They would hardly have been the first couple in history to have gotten a divorce.

This does not make him a bad man.

Never said he was. He's a decent man who did a very bad thing.

True he can't really judge her, but you have to remember he still loves her and he can't understand why she would go to Spike, not only because Xander hates Spike but also how quick she got with someone else must have hurt him too. I am not saying though that Anya has not been hurt by all of this she has a lot but you can't forget how hurt Xander must be also.

"Oh, poor Xander--all that running away he did."

Xander gets no sympathy in this case. None. The pain he's in is completely of his own making. Anya wasn't his girlfriend or his fiance anymore, and yeah, he had the right to be angry or hurt by what she did, but he had no right to confront her or anyone she chose to get involved with with that anger. You screwed up Xander, and it's not Anya's fault or Spike's fault, so instead of blaming them, and trying to kill one of them, take a good long look in the mirror, and realize that you've still got a long way to go.

Xander I feel gets no more a free pass then Willow or Buffy does.

True, but I don't think Willow or Buffy have done as many crappy things that make them need a free pass to the degree that Xander does.

Again, just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I don't hate Xander. I hate him at times, but I also really like him at times. Like buffyfan21, Lukee, and sosa lola point out, he is maybe the most "real" character on the show, and he's someone that we probably all relate to in more than a few ways. So I understand the love for him, even tho I don't share in it myself. I just feel like, as the proclaimed "white knight" of the show, he should either be a better man than he is, or be held to a higher standard than what he gets away with...

And like I said, it's also completely unfair the amount of love he gets, compared to the amount of hate Dawn/Riley/Kennedy get. I understand why they wouldn't be on many fans' lists of favorite characters, but they really haven't done anything that deserves "hate", whereas Xander has, but somehow gets away with it almost scott-free.

[Randi Giles]

I love love love love love Xander. Oops wrong thread. Lol. What's up with all the bashing of my claimee he's the most decent character of the show compared to all the killers he hangs around. Lol.