Dollhouse - Episode 2x12: The Hollow Men

[snizapman6294]

I know this is terrible to say, but i'm almost happy Dollhouse was cancelled, in a good way. The writing for the past few episodes... it seems, maybe right after it was cancelled... has been phenomenal in my opinion! The last few episodes have been my favorites of the series, and The Hollow Men may be my absolute favorite penultimate Whedon episode ever.

But I am sad to see Mellie go... but her death got me thinking: just right before she died, she said something to the effect of "When we were together, you made me feel real." which had me questioning (and feel free to chime in if you know the answer) :

1. Does Mellie know that she's November? If so, then disregard the next question.
2. (Something a little more rhetorical) Was it Mellie, November, or Madeline who shot herself? Personally, i think it was a little of each fused into one...

But storyline wise, at least Madeline is at rest, finally with her daughter again.

[VampSlayer]

She knew that she was a Doll, but only in this episode, I believe.

[wenxina]

I think it was Mellie who shot herself. Mellie knows that she's an imprint, which means that she presumably knows that her Doll name is November. Mellie's never been shown to be self-aware like Echo, and to a certain extent, Priya and Anthony, so I don't think Madeline factors in here at all.

About the Caroline/Echo issue. I don't think it was ever established that it was Caroline, and not Echo (I could be wrong). I mean, not knowing what happened this season, it would be easy to assume that it was Caroline, since she showed a lot of self-awareness. But Caroline's also part of Echo's imprint army now, so it wouldn't be inaccurate. All the other Dolls had their original personalities restored, but Echo doesn't seem to be able to get rid of any of her imprinted personas. They all just go into a bank anyway.

[snizapman6294]

Wexina:
1. now i completely agree that 'twas Mellie who shot herself.
2. I think in the beginning of the episode, they said it was still Caroline. It was this episode where Echo and Caroline were not getting along together in the same body and Eliza Dushku kept saying she was on fire or something? and I'm fairly certain that it was Caroline. Because in Epitaph One, if i'm not mistaken, it's Caroline, not Echo, who is in Eliza Dushku's body. Which means we can safely assume that Caroline is in control, or at least i feel comfortable doing that...

and thanks VampSlayer

[drusillacakes]

I know we're at the end, but I have to say that I didn't feel satisfied with this episode. Given the mind-blowing plot twist at the end of "Getting Closer," the way Boyd-the-mastermind was portrayed still has me scratching my head. Granted, trying to stuff his master-plan into 1 episode is already stretching it. Firstly, his reaching out to Topher, Echo, and Adelle, saying, "You're my family" was a little odd. How did he think they were going to react to that? Grin and bear it, and give daddy a hug?

I will admit though that Doll-Boyd strapped with a grenade was hard to swallow. It's still hard for me to picture him as evil. And yes, that CGI explosion! What the heck! Does Echo have superhuman speed or something, because there's no way she would've made it out... it was just implausible, and made the ending seem extra rushed.

Topher or whoever mentioned that they got Saunders out. Isn't Saunders at this point still housing the Clyde 2.0 persona? I didn't recall hearing them mention that they wiped her, unless Topher zapping Boyd has a residual effect that wipes other dolls in the immediate area, which would also make sense since Echo is immune to wiping.... but who knows.

Jan 16, 2010 11:08:09 GMT -5 Angel Beast said:

Why Mellie she was my favorite. I was kinda hoping for Paul to kiss her and wake her out of it. For some reason I felt that Alpha was going to show up again, don't know why.

I know, poor Mellie! I guess even if she managed to suppress the sleeper, she would always be battling that persona's drive to go postal, which is no way to live. I guess Echo is the only one who can control it.

I also hope to see Alpha in Epitaph Two. I haven't seen Epitaph One in a while, so I don't remember his name mentioned, but I'd like to see how they flesh out his role in the resistance.

[Angel Beast]

Jan 16, 2010 22:55:10 GMT -5 drusillacakes said:

I also hope to see Alpha in Epitaph Two. I haven't seen Epitaph One in a while, so I don't remember his name mentioned, but I'd like to see how they flesh out his role in the resistance.

SPOILER: Click to show

He was mentioned as helping Echo/Caroline and company with the mind wipe problem. In Epitaph One

I put it in spoiler cause I didn't want spoil it if there are people that haven't seen Epitaph One yet.

[wenxina]

Jan 16, 2010 22:27:13 GMT -5 snizapman6294 said:

Wexina:
1. now i completely agree that 'twas Mellie who shot herself.
2. I think in the beginning of the episode, they said it was still Caroline. It was this episode where Echo and Caroline were not getting along together in the same body and Eliza Dushku kept saying she was on fire or something? and I'm fairly certain that it was Caroline. Because in Epitaph One, if i'm not mistaken, it's Caroline, not Echo, who is in Eliza Dushku's body. Which means we can safely assume that Caroline is in control, or at least i feel comfortable doing that...

and thanks VampSlayer

The thing about the body burning is, it had absolutely nothing to do with the imprints not getting along, but rather the drug that Boyd injected Echo with. Topher hypothesized that it was probably a similar, if not identical drug to the one that Nolan used on Sierra, to get her to seem crazy. I'll have to rewatch "Epitaph One" before I can say conclusively if I think it was Echo, or Caroline who was in that ep.

[AndrewCrossett]

If Mellie was in control of herself long enough to shoot herself, a better course of action would have been to throw the gun away and let Paul knock her out. I'm pretty sure there was more behind her suicide than just not wanting to kill him.

Of course, she probably would have been killed anyway when Boyd blew up the building, but I'm not sure how extensive that damage really was. There was no visible damage from the exterior of the building, but that may have been a budget issue with the show itself. In any case, we know Whiskey's body survived.

[jellymoff]

I think this episode did what it needed to do. It wasn't the best of the series, but it wrapped many things up that needed to be wrapped up. I think the problem was trying to cram a whole lot into this one episode. As a result it felt rushed and a bit "overstuffed" with info. Clearly, (as expressed in other posts) there are questions left unanswered.

I think Epitath 2 will save some face here. I'm counting on it.

[wenxina]

Jan 17, 2010 10:53:54 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

If Mellie was in control of herself long enough to shoot herself, a better course of action would have been to throw the gun away and let Paul knock her out. I'm pretty sure there was more behind her suicide than just not wanting to kill him.

Practically, that may have been an option. Thematically, it wasn't. This was the episode where Mellie expresses an awareness about her condition. She knows that she's a "program", and constantly says that she knows that she's not "real". Interestingly enough, it's Paul who reaches what is his epiphany, but shares it with Mellie anyway: that what they feel is real, regardless of whether or not they're Dolls, or real people. It's the one lesson that he needed to learn, all the way back from S1.
Mellie's suicide was her taking control. She knows she's a Doll, and she knows that she'll always possibly be toyed with. Because she now feels that Mellie is in fact more "real" than she previously thought, she knows that her feelings for Paul are real, and she makes a choice. It was sad that she went the way she did, but I felt a somewhat bittersweet satisfaction for a character who died knowing who she was, and that it was by her own choice to protect the ones she loved. Mellie never got to play the big hero in the series. Of the ancillary Dolls, she was the most ancillary, but her tragic end was no less noble for it.

[Emmie]

I found this episode to be very disappointing. It felt rushed and the dialogue fell flat. Everything was too straightforward in terms of emotional resonance -- it lacked all subtlety.

The best parts were Topher (his dialogue still shined), Adelle, Echo's face as she walks away from Body after handing him the grenade, Pauls "What did I miss?"

The worst were Priya and Tony miraculously finding Echo and saving her in the middle of the episode (are they even trying to create suspension of disbelief?), so much of the dialogue being so obvious that I was saying the lines before the actors were, the awful running from the exploding fire finale, Boyd's turning into a lame "I love you guys" villain - he didn't need to become smarmy and creepy, it would have been better if he'd played it cool and continued being Boyd while still incredibly attached to the people he's Chosen - they took it OTT.

This episode accomplished things for plot significance, but did so sloppily, lacking the grace and wit that marks Whedon's shows.

[henzINNIT]

I am a bit disappointed that the Echo/Caroline tension fizzled out to nothing here. Echo herself was a fairly background character, and the legendary Caroline seemed to have no effect on her.

There was a chance to have some kind of bizarre "battle" inside that head while Echo was tripping balls on that drug from Boyd. It would have made the moment when Echo sits up more powerful.

[wenxina]

There never was a real struggle between Caroline and Echo. It was a concern that they had, that Caroline would put up a fight, and that Echo, now being a fully realized person wouldn't stand to be kicked out. But there wasn't a fight. Caroline is merely an imprint that's been assimilated into Echo's growing arsenal of imprints.
I don't think this would have been the best episode to rehash the Angel vs. Angelus episode, considering how much needed to get done. Because FOX dropped that remote-free TV thing they had the last season, each episode now is about 10 minutes shorter than the previous season. That's a lot less time to move things forward.

[hitnrun017]

I have hope that the Caroline/Echo thing will be dealt with in Epitaph Two. I can understand there wasn't enough room in The Hollow Men, but the entire season has been leading up to them finally meeting each other, and it'd just be a huge letdown if the writers did nothing with it. It wouldn't have to be as complicated as the Angel and Angelus scene with two Elizas, it could be something as simple as Eliza just going back forth between the two.

Come on Epitaph Two!

[henzINNIT]

Jan 19, 2010 13:40:42 GMT -5 hitnrun017 said:

I have hope that the Caroline/Echo thing will be dealt with in Epitaph Two. I can understand there wasn't enough room in The Hollow Men, but the entire season has been leading up to them finally meeting each other, and it'd just be a huge letdown if the writers did nothing with it. It wouldn't have to be as complicated as the Angel and Angelus scene with two Elizas, it could be something as simple as Eliza just going back forth between the two.

Come on Epitaph Two!

This exactly ^

Wouldn't need to be at all similar to "Orpheus", but Caroline/Echo tension had been building all season. Surely it deserved at least an acknowlegement somewhen.

Add to this the fact that Dushku is constantly refered to as "Caroline" in Epitaph One, and I want to know what's going on in that head of hers.

[gelious]

I am wondering if Boyd is gone for good. Yes, he simply had no time to record himself, but he could do it long before Dollhouse was attacked by his people. Just in case his "family" somehow will dispose him and take him down. Also main villain thinking of his enemies as a family.. I find it silly. Just a reason for bad guys not to kill all good guys immediately after Topher finished the device, so good guys could win in the end.
And I miss Alpha. It's a pity that we will see him only in the last episode.
Also interesting who unleashed Apocalypse if it wasn't Boyd. May be another Clyde 2.0...

[Whedon Fan]

I think that this episode would have been fine if they had, had Alpha as the creepy bad guy of the episode and keep Boyd a good guy. Or at most a grey area good/bad guy do what must be done type of charatcer.

So more or less just swap Boyd's scenes with Alpha and change some of the dialogue about and he could have spent time with Echo or faught off imprinted Dolls that were sent to target Adelle and co from blowing up the building. . .

Anyone else have other ideas?

[Hellbound Hyperion]

Jan 20, 2010 14:01:12 GMT -5 Whedon Fan said:

I think that this episode would have been fine if they had, had Alpha as the creepy bad guy of the episode and keep Boyd a good guy. Or at most a grey area good/bad guy do what must be done type of charatcer.

So more or less just swap Boyd's scenes with Alpha and change some of the dialogue about and he could have spent time with Echo or faught off imprinted Dolls that were sent to target Adelle and co from blowing up the building. . .

Anyone else have other ideas?

Interesting idea, but doesn't mesh with Epitaph One, where Alpha apparently saves everybody by finding Safe Haven. I'm assuming that that point will be explained in Epitaph Two somehow.

[henzINNIT]

I'm not too sure, but I would definately fiddle.

I'd probably condense Victor/Topher, it took a bit long for them to get anywhere.
I'd have had the heroes captured at the start and taken to Rossum against their will. Boyd would arrive with Echo subdued.
Adelle would have a scene with Boyd alone, while Clyde 2.0 intimidated Topher into fixing his device. Topher refuses and Boyd "rescues" him, convincing him to fix the device so they can use it as a weapon.
Paul and Mellie escape and do just as they did. Clyde 2.0 has used Adelle's voice to trigger Mellie. Echo awakens, Clyde 2.0 see's this on the moniter and goes to intervene. Paul goes after Adelle and nearly kills her. He is interupted by Victor and Sierra.
Echo batters Clyde 2.0 and confronts Boyd. The rest of the group man-up to stop the security forces that are moving in on Echo and Topher.
Ends basically the same way... so I'm not sure I achieved anything lol

[The Girl In Question]

I'm still mad Boyd is evil. That's all I have to say.