The Riley one-shot

[riker]

Aug 23, 2010 15:48:27 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Riker, I do like Chen's covers. I just have concrit analysis about them also. The main reason I write concrit is because the summation of responses to Chen's covers is "OMG AWESOME". I like having conversations about this. There's a difference between a blanket review (love it! hate it!) and constructive criticism. I consider mine the latter. I pretty much always buy Chen's covers and I really enjoy looking at them, but I also have things to say about the art and the messages therein.

I'm perplexed why you're focusing on Marc Blucas when my concrit was largely about how Sam's character had been turned into a Dominatrix Secret Spy Barbie. The idealized versions of women in Chen's comics continue to annoy me because she gives them all unnatural breast enhancement. It sends a bad message to women about body image and I don't think there's any defense for it.

I have to TOTALLY disagree with your complaint about Jo's women. First of all, it's art, so it's going to be stylized, and yes, stylization usually includes increasing sexiness.
Secondly, Jo is a woman herself, so I certainly don't think this is a case of sexism.
And since it is art, it is not the same as a real image being photoshopped. Plus, it's comic books and big boobs are part of the package.

[Emmie]

Right, because women can't be sexist. Except yes, yes they can. Sexism isn't something that only men can do. Jo Chen being a woman doesn't make a difference.

And yeah, I'm going to say that considering Willow and Buffy's characters (who are A, maybe even double AA) breasts become practically porn-star sized--that's not a Chen style. That's a sexist comics style.

Look, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Because I so amazingly disagree with everything you're saying here and to elaborate on all the ways I disagree would require a Master's thesis paper on art and feminism.

[riker]

Yep, we just will. Personally, I love Jo's style and I have no interest in "boobies". She improves upon their real looks and makes them look better.
I doubt the kinds of girls with self-esteem issues read comics anyway.

[Hallow Thorn]

Aug 23, 2010 21:24:35 GMT -5 @riker said:

I doubt the kinds of girls with self-esteem issues read comics anyway.

[SlayerLV]

I wasn't really impressed by this issue. I think they focused more on Angel than they did on Riley and Sam.

[Dorotea]

I am equally confused. Why for the love of Universe drawing big boobs automatically make someone sexist ? It almost feels like drawing everybody androgynously bereft of any secondary sex characteristics is the only way to go if the artist wishes to be 'politically correct'. It is like policing the artist's creativity - only turned upside down. What are the girls with big boobs to think about themselves if all they see on the images are boy-like figurines with no boobs - that they are somewhat obscene by virtue of being born this way?

[AndrewCrossett]

I think it's hilarious that the one time in season 8 Jo Chen had the opportunity to draw a genuinely busty character (Harmony on #21), she chose to cover 'em up with a pair of dogs.

[wenxina]

A pair of puppies, AC, puppies. Not dogs. Randy Jackson's a Dawg.

ETA: On the other hand, Jo also drew Faith several times, and I must say, the inflation factor is present, even when drawing already well-endowed women.

[Midnight Butterfly]

I didn't love this issue, which I was hopping to, too long a wait for an okay one shot, just hurry and give us the next issue please.

[wenxina]

Aug 24, 2010 8:58:57 GMT -5 Dorotea said:

I am equally confused. Why for the love of Universe drawing big boobs automatically make someone sexist ? It almost feels like drawing everybody androgynously bereft of any secondary sex characteristics is the only way to go if the artist wishes to be 'politically correct'. It is like policing the artist's creativity - only turned upside down. What are the girls with big boobs to think about themselves if all they see on the images are boy-like figurines with no boobs - that they are somewhat obscene by virtue of being born this way?

The issue at hand is not about embracing diversity in body types. I think that most of us would be perfectly okay with doing that. However, Chen's flaw is that she contributes towards a homogenous image of what an ideal body type should be. It's not a matter of drawing big boobs. If she drew Faith with big boobs, I don't think anyone would protest that it's inaccurate. However, even with a character like Faith, Chen tends to inflate the chest. And with flatter chested characters like Buffy and Willow? The pneumatic effect is even more dramatic.
I, personally, don't need to see the Buffyverse characters undergoing the Heidi Montag treatment. They don't need to be "perfected".
They don't need to be idealized, to be made more "sexy", to be more desirable.

[riker]

"They don't need to be idealized, to be made more "sexy", to be more desirable. "

Disagree. It's just art. I say go for it.

[jellymoff]

I'm not an artist, so maybe someone who is can answer this question: Is it harder to draw small boobs? I know it sounds a bit ridiculous, but I keep thinking that bigger might be easier. Not an excuse, just a thought. Anyway, enough from me on that topic....

[leyki]

Aug 24, 2010 13:11:57 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

I'm not an artist, so maybe someone who is can answer this question: Is it harder to draw small boobs? I know it sounds a bit ridiculous, but I keep thinking that bigger might be easier. Not an excuse, just a thought. Anyway, enough from me on that topic....

I'm not an artist, but i guess not, since male characters in comics don't have boobs

[Dorotea]

Aug 24, 2010 12:26:53 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I, personally, don't need to see the Buffyverse characters undergoing the Heidi Montag treatment. They don't need to be "perfected".
They don't need to be idealized, to be made more "sexy", to be more desirable.

I would have agreed with you if we lived 30 years ago. The current problem with female body types on display, is , however different. (IMHO ) With tv and catwalks being overrun by size 0 models with none-existing boobs and hips I think old fashioned inflated comic heroines are actually healthier, weird as it sounds. Chuckle. Especially since the young people of both genders are still reading comics.

[Wyndam]

There's no need for extremes though. Just draw/paint someone how they're supposed to look. No need for larger boobs when someone (like Willow) doesn't warrant them.

[riker]

Aug 24, 2010 16:00:17 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

There's no need for extremes though. Just draw/paint someone how they're supposed to look. No need for larger boobs when someone (like Willow) doesn't warrant them.

But it's ART. Exaggerating physical features to make the artwork look better is all part of the game. If you want realism, then I guess you should print off photos of the cast and tape them on top of Jo's covers. Or easier still, buy Jeanty's covers.

[The Girl In Question]

^^There's exaggeration, and then there's making boobs huge for no reason other than for the sake of big boobage. For example, if a character's boobs aren't supposed to be big, they shouldn't be big. In cases like making a real-live actor in comic form, you exaggerate features that are already there, not features that aren't.

[Wyndam]

Exaggerating doesn't work when the artist strives for photo realistic likenesses. If Willow's face looks perfectly like Willow's actual face, why shouldn't her boobs? Doesn't work.

[BlueJay]

It's the same reason why celebrities are airbrushed in magazines.

[wenxina]

Aug 24, 2010 15:54:29 GMT -5 Dorotea said:

Aug 24, 2010 12:26:53 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I, personally, don't need to see the Buffyverse characters undergoing the Heidi Montag treatment. They don't need to be "perfected".
They don't need to be idealized, to be made more "sexy", to be more desirable.

I would have agreed with you if we lived 30 years ago. The current problem with female body types on display, is , however different. (IMHO ) With tv and catwalks being overrun by size 0 models with none-existing boobs and hips I think old fashioned inflated comic heroines are actually healthier, weird as it sounds. Chuckle. Especially since the young people of both genders are still reading comics.

Actually, the Sports Illustrated body type is an even less realistic body type. I'm not saying that size 0 models are typically normal (though, I won't discount that some people are naturally slim), but with a frame that slim, people generally don't have the curves that a regular woman may have. The Sports Illustrated body type champions T&A, but on a very small frame. That's decidedly unrealistic, and probably exacerbates body dysmorphic disorder, since anorexics and bulimics are never happy because what they're actually going for is an hourglass shape, but because of their drastic weight loss, they lose the very curves that they're striving for in the first place.
So no, I disagree that the T&A body type is any more realistic, or healthy than a very slim morph. And once again, I think the problem here is the lack of diversity, and Chen's failure to embrace that.
Chen's also previously been accused of "prettifying" a character whose central trait was that she was less attractive using the Hollywood ideal (Gertrude from the Runaways).