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Post by hitnrun017 on Aug 18, 2010 15:42:09 GMT -5
Shocked by how much I enjoyed this issue. Loved the back and forth between Riley and Sam, leading to his ultimate decision. Always felt like Sam got a bad rep in As You Were. I liked her, and it was no different here. Was totally expecting her to die, especially since they were talking about starting a normal life, and was shocked she didn't.
Everything with Angel and the appearance of Whistler was fantastic. Really sheds a little light on his actions, and it makes you think. Would you have done everything he did in order to save the world? Of course I'm still wicked flustered by his weird behavior in Twilight, and what exactly starting that new world had to do with anything. Especially since their world was ending at the same time. So that's causing quite the headache.
But still, great issue.
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 16:06:36 GMT -5
Are we forgetting how Angel let Fred die to save thousands? Actually both he and Spike let that happen. Is it really such a stretch for him to say now he has to let( willing soldiers) die to save the Earth? This is not the same as Jasmine. She was " supposedly" saving millions from themselves, Angel was told he will definately save millions from something else. Sure I remember. In this case, however, he seems to be willing to let billions die to save himself and Buffy and their precious new genome, to start over there in Dr. Seuss Land. Even if he believes it to be unavoidable, it's not a good thing, and certainly not something to be so psyched about, as he seems to be. I don't see it as him being psyched about it. It seems he is just being accepting of the situation and acknowledging it for what it seems to be. Do you notice how these statements are not at all qualifying the issue, because that's what it is. Something that as of yet cannot be qualified. Big parts are missing. The riley story adds just one small part of a picture we are not privy to yet, and it would seem neither are the characters. In this verse to judge an action Or actions before all the spaces are filled has proven to be superfluous on our part. Example Cordy sleeping with Connor. To judge Angel/twilight yet ;just too soon. |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 18, 2010 16:21:51 GMT -5
Again, he seemed way too enthusiastic about doing the things he did. For a guy who is being forced by fate to slaughter young girls and bring so much pain to the love of his life, he certainly didn't hold back on the Evil Speeches of Evil, right up to Faith and Andrew and Giles near the end, and his attitude toward Buffy in the last arc is all "isn't this awesome?"
I still can't buy that Angel was in his right mind through all this. The Origin of Twilight and the Story of Twilight just aren't matching up for me.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Aug 18, 2010 16:23:58 GMT -5
I can chalk it all up to either "he's a really good actor to the point of actually believing himself" or "he was being watched very carefully and didn't want his discontent to show".
We'll have to see what happens when Angel has to face up to his failures as Twilight, as that one solicit for Last Gleaming states.
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 16:33:40 GMT -5
He didn't slaughter the slayers. Plus Spike slaughtered two and what did he say about it to Robin? They have they're job to do and he has his. It's a dilemma of purpose. I never got anywhere in the series where Angel says "yea killed me a bunch of slayers for the greater good! How cool is that!" Is it just Angel hate that leads you to such a definitive stance on his motives and actions? In this verse hasn't much worse been perpetrated? For far less noble reasons?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 18, 2010 16:37:40 GMT -5
He didn't slaughter the slayers. Sure he did. We watched him do it. Plus Spike slaughtered two and what did he say about it to Robin? They have they're job to do and he has his. It's a dilemma of purpose. I never got anywhere in the series where Angel says "yea killed me a bunch of slayers for the greater good! How cool is that!" Is it just Angel hate that leads you to such a definitive stance on his motives and actions? In this verse hasn't much worse been perpetrated? With far less noble reasons? I don't have any Angel hate (at least I didn't up until issue #33 of season 8). My appraisal of his motives and actions is based entirely upon what I saw on the pages. His attitude, right up until... now, in fact... does not match that of a person torn apart by the terrible things he has to do. |
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Aug 18, 2010 16:42:23 GMT -5
He didn't slaughter the slayers. Plus Spike slaughtered two and what did he say about it to Robin? They have they're job to do and he has his. It's a dilemma of purpose. I never got anywhere in the series where Angel says "yea killed me a bunch of slayers for the greater good! How cool is that!" Is it just Angel hate that leads you to such a definitive stance on his motives and actions? In this verse hasn't much worse been perpetrated? For far less noble reasons? But Spike killed 2 when he was soulless, and he was hunting them.... I don't understand the comparison here.... |
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 17:00:53 GMT -5
Spike had his soul back when he confronted Robin. He still understood it for what it was, and made NO apologies. And please quote for me where we see twilight standing over the bodies of slayers saying he did it and was proud to have done it. I'm just not seeing the idea that Angel/twilight has acted out of character. We learned today, choose the world or the girl can't have both. Didn't he choose the world?
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Aug 18, 2010 17:20:49 GMT -5
Spike had his soul back when he confronted Robin. He still understood it for what it was, and made NO apologies. And please quote for me where we see twilight standing over the bodies of slayers saying he did it and was proud to have done it. I'm just not seeing the idea that Angel/twilight has acted out of character. We learned today, choose the world or the girl can't have both. Didn't he choose the world? Still, when he killed the slayers, he had no soul, and that was his job. Robin was trying to kill him, although he knew he had a soul and was a totally different man at that point, why should he apologize? And if you consider it, he did apologize by not killing him, he had the chance, like Angel had the chance to choose, but he chose to kill the slayers, although he had a soul, like all the other times that he killed, although he had a soul. Back in China with Darla, trying to prove to her that he was still a bad boy by killing murderers, back in AtS, when he left all the lawyers unprotected against Darla and Dru, by killing Drogyn, by ordering Lindsey's death. Angel had no problem in killing a human to serve his intentions and purposes, never. |
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 17:34:14 GMT -5
Spike had his soul back when he confronted Robin. He still understood it for what it was, and made NO apologies. And please quote for me where we see twilight standing over the bodies of slayers saying he did it and was proud to have done it. I'm just not seeing the idea that Angel/twilight has acted out of character. We learned today, choose the world or the girl can't have both. Didn't he choose the world? Still, when he killed the slayers, he had no soul, and that was his job. Robin was trying to kill him, although he knew he had a soul and was a totally different man at that point, why should he apologize? And if you consider it, he did apologize by not killing him, he had the chance, like Angel had the chance to choose, but he chose to kill the slayers, although he had a soul, like all the other times that he killed, although he had a soul. Back in China with Darla, trying to prove to her that he was still a bad boy by killing murderers, back in AtS, when he left all the lawyers unprotected against Darla and Dru, by killing Drogyn, by ordering Lindsey's death. Angel had no problem in killing a human to serve his intentions and purposes, never. No Spike didn't kill Robin because he had killed his mother. The slayer part was still intact. He still understood the dichotomy of the situation. As far as Angel killing humans or letting them be killed in AtS then you prove my point, twilight not OOC. I still haven't had anyone quote or show how Angel reveled in any of his own actions. And where again does he stand over the slaughtered bodies of slayers? Please still not answering. |
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Aug 18, 2010 17:43:17 GMT -5
Still, when he killed the slayers, he had no soul, and that was his job. Robin was trying to kill him, although he knew he had a soul and was a totally different man at that point, why should he apologize? And if you consider it, he did apologize by not killing him, he had the chance, like Angel had the chance to choose, but he chose to kill the slayers, although he had a soul, like all the other times that he killed, although he had a soul. Back in China with Darla, trying to prove to her that he was still a bad boy by killing murderers, back in AtS, when he left all the lawyers unprotected against Darla and Dru, by killing Drogyn, by ordering Lindsey's death. Angel had no problem in killing a human to serve his intentions and purposes, never. No Spike didn't kill Robin because he had killed his mother. The slayer part was still intact. He still understood the dichotomy of the situation. As far as Angel killing humans or letting them be killed in AtS then you prove my point, twilight not OOC. I still haven't had anyone quote or show how Angel reveled in any of his own actions. And where again does he stand over the slaughtered bodies of slayers? Please still not answering. I never said that Angel is OOC, i agree with you on that, he's just Angel, as always. Spike's words to Buffy, so he didn't kill him because he had killed his mother. And i never said that Angel reveled over the bodies of the slayers, but still, that doesn't change the fact that they were killed. |
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 18:06:35 GMT -5
No Andrewcrossett did. I'm sorry if you got tangled up in that.
Angel and the slayer deaths? We still don't know who committed the actual acts. And hey have we forgotten Giles okayness with taking out slayers who were deemed"bad"
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Post by PJ on Aug 18, 2010 18:07:17 GMT -5
Was totally expecting her to die, especially since they were talking about starting a normal life, and was shocked she didn't. I was thinking the same thing. i mean Joss would usally never let a character have happiness with someone!  I liked the issue, it was a bit boring though. was definatly not as good as the Willow one shot, which i loved to death. However, i did like the Twilight scenes. I especially liked the fact that Whistler referenced to "Heroes" when he said "Torture the Former Cheerleader, Save the World.". I giggled when i read that.  |
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 18:15:21 GMT -5
Was totally expecting her to die, especially since they were talking about starting a normal life, and was shocked she didn't. I was thinking the same thing. i mean Joss would usally never let a character have happiness with someone! I liked the issue, it was a bit boring though. was definatly not as good as the Willow one shot, which i loved to death. However, i did like the Twilight scenes. I especially liked the fact that Whistler referenced to "Heroes" when he said "Torture the Former Cheerleader, Save the World.". I giggled when i read that. Yeah I actually laughed outloud to myself when I read that. For me it could have been longer. Ended way too soon. And we still don't know what happened to Sam. |
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Aug 18, 2010 18:18:12 GMT -5
No Andrewcrossett did. I'm sorry if you got tangled up in that. Angel and the slayer deaths? We still don't know who committed the actual acts. And hey have we forgotten Giles okayness with taking out slayers who were deemed"bad" No problem  What i think is, even if Angel didn't actually kill the slayers, he is still responsible. Like the time with the lawyers, Dru and Darla killed them, but Angel did nothing to prevent it. And Giles was never a hero, a champion. He's killed Benn, back in season 5, when Buffy gave him a pass because he was a human. |
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 18:44:37 GMT -5
See this is what I don't get, there is soooo much moral ambiguity with other characters actions, but yet jump on Angel now because you assume he's doing or has done something with no moral impunity. It's not logical. Judgment is judgment straight across the board. Like, dislike doesn't matter, if Angel was working in motives that were pure,in reason then the judgement of those actions should take that into account.
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Aug 18, 2010 18:58:16 GMT -5
But Angel is supposed to be a champion, we cannot compare to what a human would do.
The only champion we can compare him to, is basically, Buffy.
Buffy would have tried to find another way than just following the more obvious one, by killing some to save the rest.
Angel is just the typical Angel that we've seen in BtVS, and in AtS.
He just decides alone, what is good and what is not,
he makes the decisions by himself....
He left Buffy because he decided that it was the best thing for her,
he erased Buffy's memory by taking back the day they spent as a real couple in season 1 of AtS,
or like with the black thorn thing, the only reason that he told his plan to the rest of his team, was because he needed them.
He only informed them when they were necessary for his plan to work, not before,
he never discussed it with them to make the decision all together.
Always making his own decisions....he must be judged some day about this, IMO....
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Post by wenxina on Aug 18, 2010 19:47:04 GMT -5
The definition of "champion" is fraught with personal ideals. To some, Angel embodies what it means to be a champion because he's willing to do what has to be done, at great cost to himself (he did sign away the Shanshu, which was what he was always hoping for). As for the final standoff plan, no, the plan wasn't made together, but the decision to execute it as a team was a joint agreement by all. I seem to remember voluntary hand-raising, literally.
But back to the subject of champions. Some think that Buffy and/or Spike epitomize "champion" more than Angel does. Fair enough. But when the conversation devolves into "who's more champion-y?" then it kinda becomes a Gordian knot. Buffy, Angel, and Spike are three separate entities, not Mortal Kombat ninjas (where the same character model is used but colored differently), and therefore, do not represent all the same ideals.
On the flipside, there may be more than one definition of what a champion is. As I alluded to above, what may be considered champion-like behavior by one, may be douchebaggy to another. But I think at the end of the day, all the characters of the Buffyverse, regardless of whether human, demon, or god, are human, or display traits of humanity. That's what makes them compelling. Being a champion doesn't exclude one from participating in humanity. In fact, quite the opposite, as many of the traits that are generally associated with being a champion are idealized human traits. So I disagree with your beginning precept that we cannot compare what a champion does to what a regular person will do.
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47kwest
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Post by 47kwest on Aug 18, 2010 19:51:39 GMT -5
True Angel has made his own decisions, but throwing Whistler in changes that. Whistler's influence is, going back, monumental. Truly atonement for Angelus? Ever possible? Doubt it. At this point with this new information, the joining of the two verses, ie the PTB I think we should all consider the beginning. One girl, alone in all the the world. Truly the burden is Buffy's all character's aside. When Jeanty asked me what I thought happens I said I thought Buffy died. The most he said after that was something about her maybe on a different plane. Not the Buffy we knew. Well let's talk about evolution then, of characters of stories, you name it! we know nothing!
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Aug 18, 2010 20:10:04 GMT -5
In my opinion, Angel's actions are the actions of a leader, not the actions of a champion.
The leader is the one who always takes the rough decisions, the leader is the one who will sacrifice some to save more.
A champion, will always try to find another way to do it, and will never compromise with the decisions that Angel has taken over the years.
And i still think that the reason he asked his team to vote, was basically because he needed their participation. If not, he would have just, "faits accomplis" all the team....
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