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Post by Emmie on Jul 15, 2010 19:46:42 GMT -5
So a really interesting discussion has been going on at Livejournal about Season 8 and its relationship to Alan Moore's Promethea. I'd heard a few people mentioning this connection vaguely over the past few months, but no one ever really went into great detail. I finally got a chance to sit down and read Promethea, and WOW. Lots of parallels. I thought about re-posting everything here, but there's a lot of images to re-code. So how about some link action? Warning: This post is image heavy and some images are extremely NSFW. Also, it's a frickin' long post. Oh yeah, and consider this an exploration of common themes, motifs and concepts in the vein of comparative literary analysis. Oh, if you want to read more back 'n forth, check out this summary. Discussion has been a bit slow recently, so maybe this'll give us something to talk about! |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 15, 2010 21:24:14 GMT -5
I've read and enjoyed "Promethea" (I have all the trade paperbacks and the final monthly issue in the form of a foldout poster). I'd never really seen a connection between it and Buffy besides the centrality of the female heroine in a role that's passed down (along the chain of writers and artists telling the story of the ostensibly fictional Promethea character).
It would be interesting to ask Joss if "Promethea" had any conscious influence on season 8. I'm sure Buffy's story isn't derived from it, since the TV series began before Moore's comic did (and the movie long before).
Moore intended "Promethea" to be his last major comic work before retiring to pursue his real-life interest in magic, which this comic was intended to explain. (It's a "grimoire" -- a personal work setting out Moore's personal beliefs).
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Post by Emmie on Jul 15, 2010 22:01:59 GMT -5
I think Whedon's awareness of the similarity between the Slayer and the Promethea had him thinking about it ever since Promethea was being published. And it's influenced the development of Buffy's story ever since. Kinda the way The Matrix had Buffy doing those sort of moves for a while whenever she fought. Only I think this goes more to the heart of her character and her character's journey, not merely the surface style of how she kicks, punches and dodges. I think the connection is of interest in that here's a comic book that's directly influencing Buffy in the past and is still influencing the story's journey. Over a decade later and Promethea is still influencing Buffy--that's seems significant to me. And if Promethea is Moore's own personal interest in magic, I think it seems more like Whedon's usage of these notes is more a personal interest in Moore's stories than in magic itself. "The Universe" concept in particular strikes me as something that makes perfect sense in Moore's story, but is baffling in Season 8. I know some are hoping it'll make more sense soon, I'm hoping it'll be disregarded as a bogus claim and really there's a puppetmaster behind it all. But... as it stands, it's weird. I'm sure Buffy's story isn't derived from it, since the TV series began before Moore's comic did (and the movie long before). The origin of Buffy's story isn't influenced by Promethea, nor are the first three seasons of BtVS. But after that, Season 4 is influenced by Promethea in its conclusion and Season 8 has compelling allusions. Someone even noted how Chosen resonates with Promethea in the way Sophie does the unthinkable and has all the Promethea manifest all at once so she's not the only one to fight all the demons in an epic battle in the hospital. |
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Post by NightlySorrow on Jul 15, 2010 22:53:32 GMT -5
I can't help but still wonder what actor had a problem with the tarot cards. I still want those. Very good article, I've heard about the connections, and it's beyond similar. Pretty interesting. I skipped over most of the more opinionated stuff near the end involving season 8 though.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jul 15, 2010 23:14:23 GMT -5
I have read Promethea series as soon as it was mentioned by whedonesque.com (after the release of Buffy S8 issue 34). It is a very nice piece of art but it lacks what Buffy ( as tv series and the S8 alike) have in abundance - the actual interesting dynamic plot and exciting new Universe that sucks you in at once and keeps you tied in its reality does not matter what kind of media it employs. Oh, no doubt, there are connections and references between the two stories - (same as between Buffy any other 'good' supernatural urban fantasy series out there), but the author of the entry you quoted here not only exaggerates the connection but ,( honestly), takes a very narrow-sighted and prejudiced approach to both series. The truth is though, Promethea could not keep my attention beyond its issue 14 - and its somewhat vague referential connection to Buffy. Shrug. To each its own I suppose. But I am quite amused at how certain fraction of Buffy fandom tends to grab at every straw out there to promote their dislike of S8.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 15, 2010 23:21:35 GMT -5
You might need to work more on noticing connections, Dorotea. That author is me. LMFAO. Well done, well done.
It's interesting you took what you did away from that post. Because I wasn't saying that Promethea tells a better story, but that Promethea has a more grounded basis in mythos and thus retains the meaning of myth, such that it gets distorted to the point of lacking meaning in Season 8. But that's a finer point. That the distortion of underlying mythos leaves it a bit flat and meaningless in the Buffyverse, as if it would somehow get in the way of the characters and the story.
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Dorotea
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Post by Dorotea on Jul 15, 2010 23:31:48 GMT -5
Being better grounded in mythos' is not what makes a good story really grand story, IMHO. Otherwise every teacher of literary arts and professional historian out there would be a splendid writer. Moore could not grab me because his characters lack multi-dimensionality and development, and his plot lacks humanity. It is hard to explain, maybe, but there is not much in Promethea beyond what a decent grasp on Greco-Roman mythos and period of history and alchemy gives one ( and trust me my house is flooded with ancient history books - my husband writes on the subject).
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kaan
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Post by kaan on Jul 16, 2010 2:56:17 GMT -5
I've only read the first tpb of Promethea, and I can see the similarities, but I think it's more just the case of Alan Moore being a comic book GOD who has influenced pretty much everyone after him who has written in this medium.
I'm not to sure about what the motives are of drawing similarities either. It's interesting to a degree, but it's also already a proven fact. It's no secret Joss loves Moore's work. We know Promethea has had a direct impact on Buffy via S4. Also it's pretty hard to miss the Alan Moore references in S8, like in NFFY and TOYL.
From what I remember reading in that first tpb and certain other mentions about Promethea, it's a book about Alan Moore laying out and explaining something akin to his personal new-found belief system, which is obviously rooted in myth and mysticism (magic). It is THE central concept in the work. Whereas in S8 magic is used just as it has been used throughout Buffy: phlebotnum. Haphazardly used to explain away fantastical things or used as ever changing metaphor's of real-life hardships.
I think Promethea is just one of a vast canon of works Joss and the other writers draw their(unconscious?) inspiration from. Another work that you could draw a connection with is the classic X-Men run of The Dark Phoenix Saga. There are similarities between that and S8.
If all your trying to say is that works that we have read and admire influence us in our own works, then I completely agree. If your saying Joss is doing something more blatantly transparent (i.e. knowingly, without it being a simple homage) to try and connect the two works then, yeah, not really seeing it.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 16, 2010 15:24:48 GMT -5
This reads as contradictory to me. How do you not knowingly connect two works when you do an homage? By the definition of the word "homage", it is something done knowingly to connect one work to the previous work being honored. To homage something, it must be done knowingly and it must intentionally connect one work to another previous work. *inserts confuzzled face*
I'm simply saying there are parallels, that Whedon is very aware of Promethea, has already cited it as an influence way back in BtVS Season 4, and it appears to continue to be a huge influence in Season 8. Even more so now as it's influencing comics imagery homage pages--the art is being presented in "homage" style as shown in the examples in the post.
What similiarities are you seeing between Season 8 and The Dark Phoenix Saga? Is it visual, textual and mythologically based homage? I of course see the influence of X-Men with Season 6 and Dark Willow, but I'm curious what you see re: Season 8.
Has anyone here listened to the commentary for Primeval? David Fury very openly discusses how BtVS "rips off" concepts from other shows. And that's his words. He says all TV shows do it, but the BtVS staff is more honest about it.
It sees people are extremely sensitive to the concept of Intellectual Property, probably more so than the professionals even are, as witnessed by David Fury's own words where he talks about "rip[ping] off" The Matrix and concepts/ideas inspired by Promethea.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 16, 2010 16:00:24 GMT -5
Well, if "Promethea" and season 8 end in the same way... (spoilers here for the end of "Promethea"... don't read if you ever intend to read that comic!): Twilight is not going to be averted. This world will end and a new one will be ushered in, although humanity will be brought along rather than destroyed.
SOPHIE: "So it was the same for me as everybody else. Just 'stay awake,' then... blackness. Sleep, I guess. And when I woke up, I was back in my own life and she was gone. Just like with everybody else.
"And I looked out my window, and at first I thought the whole thing had just been a dream, that the Apocalypse hadn't happened. The world was all still there. It all looked just the same... except it didn't.
"And it wasn't.
"For one thing, some guy two floors down had killed himself. There were a lot of people hurt themselves or others, all across the city.
"All across the planet.
"We were all stunned, in shock, and suddenly it was summer 2004.
"But anyway, enough about me. [...] What about you? How have things been with you? You know... since the world ended?"
So Twilight would happen, and would turn out to be a good thing, albeit frightening, and the whole world will move on to an afterlife quite similar to this one, but with differences.
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kaan
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Post by kaan on Jul 16, 2010 19:29:47 GMT -5
This reads as contradictory to me. How do you not knowingly connect two works when you do an homage? By the definition of the word "homage", it is something done knowingly to connect one work to the previous work being honored. To homage something, it must be done knowingly and it must intentionally connect one work to another previous work. *inserts confuzzled face* Of course it's done knowingly (except when it's done unconsciously), but I feel there is a difference with putting in homages from influential works or artist (if it's appropriate to your own story) or actively going about shaping your story based of anothers work. That's were I see a difference. |
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