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Post by wenxina on Jul 24, 2010 14:49:12 GMT -5
So, just in case the tweet was a little hard to understand, this is what Newsarama is reporting in full sentences:
So, no, it doesn't make it officially canon, but it won't contradict the S8 stuff, so that it necessarily has to be deemed not canon.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 24, 2010 14:51:19 GMT -5
Uh, I'm confused with how Spike can take place a year before Season 8. Again, the timing of the comics is all kerplooey. I thought it went like this:
Season 8 = 1 1/2 years post-Chosen. Meaning it starts November 2004. Six months after Not Fade Away in May 2004. After the Fall #17 occurred one month after NFA, so that story ended in June 2004. And don't the Spike comics occur post-After the Fall?
So how can the Spike comics be a year before Season 8?
Are they now saying Season 8 starts later than a year and a half post-Chosen? GAH.
What bugs me is that the comics pros don't care to answer this. Yes, I get it that this is a somewhat insignificant detail--how dare we obsess over something so basic as SETTING? How about the pros get their shit together and just say what time it is? How hard is that? It's a problem for the audience because we're used to TV time where everything synced up effortlessly.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jul 24, 2010 14:51:56 GMT -5
I don't think "call anyone" is really the philosophy they want to be going with at this point. All of those people are very busy and would need months of lead time to do a comic arc, if they're available at all. And they'd need to be carefully briefed on what's going on with the story. Every single word of this arc has to be perfect. Scott may not have the celebrity resume some of the season 8 writers have, but he's right there with Joss re: what has to happen in this arc, and how it has to happen. I don't understand this train of thought at all. Knowledge of what happens is not at all as important as skill. It's easy to brief someone on plot. It's "this is what happens, let's carry it out." I refuse to believe there aren't other writers out there who would be more than willing to jump on this immediately.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 24, 2010 14:52:50 GMT -5
The origin of Spike's ship will be told in the Spike comic.I don't think "call anyone" is really the philosophy they want to be going with at this point. All of those people are very busy and would need months of lead time to do a comic arc, if they're available at all. And they'd need to be carefully briefed on what's going on with the story. Every single word of this arc has to be perfect. Scott may not have the celebrity resume some of the season 8 writers have, but he's right there with Joss re: what has to happen in this arc, and how it has to happen. The fact is, if you want one of those writers you're gooing to have to wait 6 months to a year for the final arc, at best. I don't think the series' sales could survive that. I don't think the fans' patience could either.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jul 24, 2010 14:54:59 GMT -5
I thought it went like this. Season = 1 1/2 years post-Chosen. Meaning it starts November 2004. Six months after Not Fade Away. So how can the Spike comics be a year before? Joss originally said a year and a half, then he said about a year and a half, at one time someone said about a year, and then Joss said that it takes place "comic book time" after "Chosen" and that we can't apply that sort of structure any more. What's happening now in Angel takes place only a month or so after "Not Fade Away."
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Post by Emmie on Jul 24, 2010 14:58:36 GMT -5
"Comic book time" = lazy writing.
Seriously, how hard is it to establish SETTING? Blerg.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 24, 2010 15:01:37 GMT -5
It's probably a good thing that they didn't really state in canon when S8 begins. What's happening now is a pretty organic thing, IMO. Joss was working under the impression that there might be some kinda "buy back" of the ANGEL franchise by Dark Horse, but since that never happened, IDW was free to tell their own stories. Then it turns out that Angel and Spike are feature quite significantly in S8. At the moment, the ANGEL stuff is still chronologically behind S8, which means, given S8's rather irreverent attitude towards time, allows IDW to say, "Hey, this happened a year before you started". Time isn't something you can get hung up over, based on the nature of the medium. What's been stated in the books so far is that Buffy blames Twilight for the hell he's put her through the previous year. Well, S8 is nearing 4 years now... so do we expect the events to unfold in real time, or a time frame established in the books? Coz if we want to put real time restrictions on the book, the space frakking went on for an entire month.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jul 24, 2010 15:04:12 GMT -5
"Comic book time" = lazy writing. Seriously, how hard is it to establish SETTING? Blerg. That's kinda the thing that irks me about Dark Horse sometimes. The "comic book time," the pop culture references. The skirting around questions that fans want to know. Scott Allie's "It's not a part of the story, so we can't even be bothered to address it." Um, yes, it is a super big part of the story, and we care. Sort of dig how Brian Lynch goes, "A year before Season Eight." An easy question, a simple answer. It is really that easy. The fact is, if you want one of those writers you're gooing to have to wait 6 months to a year for the final arc, at best. I don't think the series' sales could survive that. I don't think the fans' patience could either. I'd rather wait longer than having a dude who said that he isn't suitable for Buffy write a finale we've already been waiting for for four years. For for four. Mwhahahaah.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 24, 2010 15:07:02 GMT -5
So, no, it doesn't make it officially canon, but it won't contradict the S8 stuff, so that it necessarily has to be deemed not canon. I'm already getting a head start on the migraine this is going to cause in the ongoing canon debate. If something is certified by Joss as being 100% compatible with canon, is that the same thing as declaring it canon? Oy.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 24, 2010 15:09:49 GMT -5
It's really only a step up from the canon debate regarding the comic book adaptation of the 1992 Buffy movie BtVS: Origins.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 24, 2010 15:10:22 GMT -5
It's a pretty huge deal to make a continuation of a TV show and play coy with what time it takes place. Again, BtVS on TV had it built into the verse. Apocalypses in May. Always. The time synced up with the airdate, more or less.
So to go from having this clearly defined to not having it at all? It's annoying. And I'm not going to play the "nature of the medium" game because this is a comic continuation of a TV show. Which means there should be some consideration for how TIME is defined in the Buffyverse.
At some point, S8 needs to lay it all down and just answer the question. Especially considering they'd already answered the question (one and a half years, ty), then backtracked to cover themselves.
"Nature of the medium" also means mutliple canons and contradicting universes and rebooting again and again and again. So bowing down to the "nature of the medium"? Yeah, that's not a good thing, Xi.
If time didn't matter in the Buffyverse, then it wouldn't be such a big deal that Buffy's birthday always leads to badness and we wouldn't have threads for January 19th wishing her a happy one this year. Time matters. Time gives you a way to relate to the world. It's part of worldbuilding. It is important. Maybe it's not important to hardcore comics fans, but it is important to a lot of Buffy fans--that's why it keeps getting brought up, fans are hella confused.
If time had always been ambiguous in the 'verse, it wouldn't be as jarring. But because we go from having it clearly defined, to having it completely a mystery, it leads to a difficulty in giving Season 8 comparative relevance. I guess we'll never have another Buffy's birthday issue. We'll never have apocalypses in May. All the ways in which time has passed? Annihilated. Just another way to reinforce that there's a TV canon and a comics canon to many fans, and never the twain shall meet.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jul 24, 2010 15:10:34 GMT -5
It's really only a step up from the canon debate regarding the comic book adaptation of the 1992 Buffy movie BtVS: Origins. This reminds me. Vampires in the Buffy comic used to be green. Green.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 24, 2010 15:11:44 GMT -5
So, no, it doesn't make it officially canon, but it won't contradict the S8 stuff, so that it necessarily has to be deemed not canon. I'm already getting a head start on the migraine this is going to cause in the ongoing canon debate. If something is certified by Joss as being 100% compatible with canon, is that the same thing as declaring it canon? Oy. Isn't that the same issue with Lynch's work on the Angel stuff, prior to "AtF"?
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jul 24, 2010 15:11:54 GMT -5
It's a pretty huge deal to make a continuation of a TV show and play coy with what time it takes place. Again, BtVS on TV had it built into the verse. Apocalypses in May. Always. The time synced up with the airdate, more or less. We literally haven't agreed this much in years. What up? Haha. Yup.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 24, 2010 15:12:11 GMT -5
It's really only a step up from the canon debate regarding the comic book adaptation of the 1992 Buffy movie BtVS: Origins. This reminds me. Vampires in the Buffy comic used to be green. Green. To differentiate them from Old Ones regenerated into human bodies of course.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jul 24, 2010 15:13:59 GMT -5
I'm already getting a head start on the migraine this is going to cause in the ongoing canon debate. If something is certified by Joss as being 100% compatible with canon, is that the same thing as declaring it canon? Oy. Isn't that the same issue with Lynch's work on the Angel stuff, prior to "AtF"? Great, great point. To me, all of the stuff is canon. It works off of Joss's original plan, and definitely leads up to what he's doing. And with the editor of Angel now the writer of Angel, I'm sure that is heading there as well. I know that literally no one will agree with me, and there will probably be copious amounts of quoting of this, but I just take what comes out the way I want to, because it's fiction. Fiction that I love more than people should. Passionately, and more than my girlfriend. I kid. Maybe. But I do.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 24, 2010 15:19:06 GMT -5
It's a pretty huge deal to make a continuation of a TV show and play coy with what time it takes place. Again, BtVS on TV had it built into the verse. Apocalypses in May. Always. The time synced up with the airdate, more or less. We literally haven't agreed this much in years. What up? Haha. Yup. Haha, all the recent months of comics craziness have brought us clooooooooooser! *sings* I think we're actually on the same page about a lot of things (see: Willingham), but I suspect also the most recent S8 issues. Though you haven't reviewed them yet on your blog, which I kinda took to mean you were going "WTF?!!" Which, if so, means that we're again in agreement.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jul 24, 2010 15:30:04 GMT -5
Haha, all the recent months of comics craziness have brought us clooooooooooser! *sings* Indeed! Sort of yes, sort of kinda, and a dash of "maybe not." Jury is somewhat out on what's happening with Season Eight. Brad Meltzer got the *voices* really well. Man, did he ever. I was 100% with him until #34. And #34 didn't make me back off that much. It just made me go "WAITTTTTT." Thing is, it all happened so fast with not enough build up. Giles all of a sudden knows all this stuff. Okay, sure, he's Giles, but it does make it seem kind of Deus-Ex-FuckEverythingUpJustToHaveACrazyFinale. And then, Angel. The problem is, this story COULD work. Which is why I was hungry for Joss's arc, because someone with his talent could make it work. The preview with Spike made it seem that it was going to be explained why Angel was doing this. Things have to be addressed. The level of the THRALL that Angel is under. Connor's situation, because no WAY does the "power of love" trump the Angel/Connor relationship. Also, HOW Angel as Twilight managed to limit the deaths, and maybe even what would have happened had he not. All of those things need to be addressed for what has happened in the Twilight arc to work. Because if you ignore those things, you shit on Angel, demonizing him in favor of making Buffy seem like the only one who gives a shit about her friends. Buffy had GREAT moments in the Twilight arc, and it was clear that the thrall of the Universe got her, because Sexy Time Buffy was markedly different than Wait, Fuck This Buffy. #35 by it self was interesting and I love the philosophy, sort of putting Angel as an Ayn Randian objectivist against Buffy's humanism... but does it work for Angel? Maybe. Time will tell. As far as Willingham, I dig the plot itself. The execution, not so much. The dialogue is incredibly lacking, annnnnd the Illyria can breed thing should have been explained in text. This is the Buffyverse. Joss makes mythology bend to characters, and Willingham could have done the same. It's easy. It just wasn't thought about, I guess. I still love both titles unreasonably and, even though my own personal creator owned writing career is headed in crazy and seemingly big directions, I so want to write for this universe.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 24, 2010 15:39:44 GMT -5
Pretty much, but add some feminist flailing on my part and hardcore snarking about how Space Frakking is tacky and something so horrible shouldn't be making me gigglesnort at the same time. Agreed about not enough build up.
My problems with Willingham are mostly about execution, especially characterization.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 24, 2010 15:39:53 GMT -5
S8 is the continuation of the TV series in a different medium. There are certain limitations imposed by either medium. I respect both mediums equally, but a story told in a particular medium has to play to its strengths, and be aware of its limitations. A monthly comic doesn't have the same pacing as an hour long TV show. It doesn't work that way. So it actually takes more work to restructure the story in a way that will work better in the comic book format. It's not lazy, it's prudent. And one of the problems with S8 is that it hasn't embraced the medium fully, instead it's trying to stick to its previous formula which doesn't really work, because of the long time between introducing elements and having them pay off.
Look, I don't get hung up on things like time. I get that for some people, it's important. All I'm saying is that it's probably a good thing that the time frame wasn't set in stone, given the current continuity shuffle. Not clearly saying that S8 began on November 25, 2005 or whatever makes it possible for people who want to realign the continuities to do so, by allowing Lynch's book to happen a year before S8.
A season is no longer equal to a year. Apparently, it's been about a year since Twilight started making life hell for Buffy. Not sure if she meant from "TLWH", or since "A Beautiful Sunset", when she finally meets him, or when he blew up her castle in "ToYL", or when he started hounding her all over the world. Point is, it's been longer than a year.
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