Was Willow and Tara's relationship healthy?

[midwesternwatcher]

Let's do a thought experiment.

Suppose that, contrary to the way you see it, Tara actually was a mother figure to Buffy. Then, if you're right and Tara was "just a good friend," then something different would've happened. What? What would a mother figure have done, that Tara didn't do?

Suppose Buffy had laid her head on Tara's breast and cried. Then would you say that Tara was a mother figure to Buffy? Buffy actually did cry, and she held both of Tara's hands, if I remember right.

I'm trying to figure out why we see this differently. Here's a stab at it. I think that mothers are necessary, not just before birth or even before adulthood, but throughout life. I think a good mother can offer a kind of emotional support that ever normal person or any age needs, especially in certain desperate but realistic situations. Buffy lost her mother. She must either find somebody else to fill that role, or suffer for the lack of mothering.

Do you agree?

I could be completely off the mark, but I think your view is conditioned by a perception that mothering is only for babies. If Buffy needs mothering, on this view, then she's not a grownup and we can't respect her.

Is this the point where we see things differently?

BTW, somebody pointed out that Buffy asks Tara not to forgive her. She did indeed say that. But I don't think she meant it. I think she wanted forgiveness in the worst way. That's why she revealed her secret first to the one among all her friends who was most likely to forgive her.

[Randi Giles]

The thing is Tara didn't really didn't really do anything. I haven't seen that scene in a while, but Tara pretty much just sat there and listen. When Buffy's head fell into her lap she kind of had a uncertain look of what to do. Besides the circumstances this scenes often reminds of when Buffy also laid her head on Willow after the break-up with Angel. Back then she could have went to her mother, but at the time she just needed that support of a friend. Even if Joyce or even Giles were there for I believe they would have been enough influence for Buffy to have stop dealing with Spike then instead of it still going on until As You Were.

Mothering to me isn't just for babies. It's some who is a protector, influence or or has maternal instincts among other things. I didn't see maternal instinct with Tara in that scene. I just saw Tara trying hard to let Buffy know what she was doing wasn't too wrong.

Another thought that I have is that I can't accept anyone else as a mother figure for Buffy other than Joyce. I also don't think Buffy would want another mother figure.

Karma for dealing with me.

[Silver]

The relationship was great to start with, but it was when Willow started to dip into the magic cookie jar way too much that it went sour. It was a good solid healthy relationship, they were good for and to one another but Willow was the stronger one outwordly out of them which made it unhealthy. She would always try to get her way, be it by magic, decite or a mix. Tara was much stronger on the inside, willpower, even strong enough to say 'no more' to Willow. Perhaps if Willow had followed Tara's way of things then perhaps maybe their relationship would have been less bumpy!

[outofphase]

I don't think Willow will be able to have a healthy relationship, she's got a lot of issues. When she was with Oz she cheated with Xander and that was probably the most stable relationship she had during the show. Even after he left she's already talking about wanting to be able to control her relationships- in something blue she tells Buffy that if she had had any real power she would have been able to make Oz stay with her. And then we see her actually try and enact that on Tara with the memory spells and what not. Personally, I don't think she (or anyone else in the show) will ever have a healthy, happy relationship... but I don't think anyone in real life does either. Everyone has issues and baggage, so the shows relationships are realistic in that respect. Plus they're cute and entertaining to watch.

also, I like this topic *karmas*

[midwesternwatcher]

Tara didn't do anything? What was she supposed to do? What would Joyce have done that she didn't? She accepted Buffy as she (Buffy) was, even though it was difficult. That's what mother love is. Am I wrong?

[midwesternwatcher]

Sept 6, 2010 17:08:18 GMT -5 outofphase said:

I don't think Willow will be able to have a healthy relationship, she's got a lot of issues. When she was with Oz she cheated with Xander and that was probably the most stable relationship she had during the show. Even after he left she's already talking about wanting to be able to control her relationships- in something blue she tells Buffy that if she had had any real power she would have been able to make Oz stay with her. And then we see her actually try and enact that on Tara with the memory spells and what not. Personally, I don't think she (or anyone else in the show) will ever have a healthy, happy relationship... but I don't think anyone in real life does either. Everyone has issues and baggage, so the shows relationships are realistic in that respect. Plus they're cute and entertaining to watch.

also, I like this topic *karmas*

I agree absolutely. Let me add a couple of things ... the Willow-Tara relationship began at a time when Willow was more vulnerable than usual, suffering from lack of Oz. In "Tough Love" she describes herself as the "junior partner" in her relationship with Tara. I picture the early Willow-Tara conversations involving a lot of crying and release of feelings on Willow's part (some people would say "whining," I don't like that word). We never see conversations like that, though. We see healthy conversations related to matters in the present, like what to name the kitty.

[Randi Giles]

Sept 6, 2010 17:24:09 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

Tara didn't do anything? What was she supposed to do? What would Joyce have done that she didn't? She accepted Buffy as she (Buffy) was, even though it was difficult. That's what mother love is. Am I wrong?

I didn't say she did absolutely nothing. I did acknowledge that she was trying to let Buffy know that she accepted her as a friend would. Yes it is mother love to be accepting, but I don't see why it can't be seen as friend love like the way Buffy accepted Willow when she learned she was gay. I think it's safe to say that neither of us are going to change our mind. I honestly can't say that from that scene or any other scene Tara stepped into a role as a mother figure to Buffy.

[midwesternwatcher]

Have you read "Jo's Boys" by Louisa May Alcott? That was the gospel of motherhood, in a time when mothers were much more revered than they are today. If you have, you remember the scene where Jo's most prodigal son returns from prison and she takes him back. It was a touching scene, but Jo didn't "do" or "say" anything. She felt.

Buffy and Willow when Buffy learned Willow was gay? Not the same kind of scene. Willow was making a difficult choice, not confessing a terrible transgression. Willow knows that being lesbian might be unpopular in some circles, but she doesn't feel it is a sin. Buffy definitely feels she's doing something wrong and a thousand times wrong by sleeping with Spike.

In season 5, can't remember which episode, when we first meet the Buffy Bot, Willow gets the idea that Buffy is sleeping with Spike (not true at that time). Remember how she responded? Not like Tara did. That's the difference between friend love and mother love.

Oh, here's a notion I just picked up from Rhonda Wilcox. Wilcox says "Tara" is a "charactonym." It refers to "Terra," or earth, and reflects the "earth mother" concept. I haven't made up my mind about that. It sounds a little far-fetched to me, even though it supports my point of view.

[Randi Giles]

In the book you read the and the scene you described could have very well been similar to Buffy and Tara's scene. If showing me the similarity was what you were trying to do. Still theses are two different stories with different characters and situations. I believe I have a pretty good idea of what the difference is between friendship love and a mothers unconditional is. As far as Willows coming out scene I didn't say the scene was the same as Buffy's and Tara. The way Buffy accepted Willow was the same as when Tara accepted Buffy was the same I feel. As far as the whole scene in season 5. It's been a while since I've seen it but I remember Willow and Tara having the same reaction. And I'm not saying your point of view is wrong. It may be right I just don't agree with it, but who the hell am I?

[outofphase]

Sept 6, 2010 17:30:21 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

I agree absolutely. Let me add a couple of things ... the Willow-Tara relationship began at a time when Willow was more vulnerable than usual, suffering from lack of Oz. In "Tough Love" she describes herself as the "junior partner" in her relationship with Tara. I picture the early Willow-Tara conversations involving a lot of crying and release of feelings on Willow's part (some people would say "whining," I don't like that word). We never see conversations like that, though. We see healthy conversations related to matters in the present, like what to name the kitty.

I totally agree with this. Willow's also vulnerable at the beginning of her relationship with Tara because it's her first relationship with a woman and I think people tend to be more vulnerable when they're questioning their sexuality or when they do anything for the first time. I think Willow feels like the 'junior partner' because she feels like Tara has so much more experience than her, although it's never actually established if Tara does or not.

And as for naming Kitty- the conversation appears healthy on the surface, but Willow says something about having time 'cause kitty's not all grown yet, it's kind of implying that they don't know everything about the kitten or what it will become... like Willow. Starts cute, goes dark.

[tkts]

Sept 7, 2010 17:53:57 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

In season 5, can't remember which episode, when we first meet the Buffy Bot, Willow gets the idea that Buffy is sleeping with Spike (not true at that time). Remember how she responded? Not like Tara did. That's the difference between friend love and mother love.

That scene is an interesting case because it actually kind of subverts Willow and Tara's expected roles ... we expect Willow to share Xander's shock and disgust and Tara to be the understanding, nonjudgmental one, but then the positions reverse.

WILLOW: What's going on?

XANDER: Buffy's gone insane.

WILLOW: What? What did she do?

XANDER: Brace yourself, you're not gonna believe it.

TARA: Everyone, before you jump all over her… people do strange things when someone they love dies. When I lost my mother I did some pretty dumb stuff, lying to my folks and staying out all night --

ANYA: Buffy's boinking Spike.

A beat.

WILLOW: (struggling to understand) Oh. Well, Tara's right, grief can be powerful and we shouldn't judge --

TARA: What are you, kidding? She's nuts!

In retrospect, that scene is a little disappointing, because it seems like the writers went for "the funny" at the expense of staying true to the characters. It certainly doesn't line up with what we saw later, toward the end of season 6.

[midwesternwatcher]

No, it doesn't line up. And I think you're right, in season 5 we're going for comic effect, and in season 6, for dramatic effect. When Buffy makes her confession to Tara, Tara must have known, even before the words came out, that Buffy was about to confess something serious, and she must have understood the need not to pass judgment. She did so by saying nothing, which was the best thing to do. I doubt Willow could've remained silent at that moment.

Have we gotten away from Willow/Tara?

[Randi Giles]

Sept 13, 2010 19:08:36 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

Have we gotten away from Willow/Tara?

A little bit.

[jtmaster13]

Not sure if this goes along with anything everyone else has said, but Willow always wanted to be needed in some way. You could see it in the second season, she wanted to help out in any way, she wanted to be needed. She wanted Buffy to need her help. In the fourth season, "Fear Itself" where she threw in that comment, "I'm not your sidekick," Willow wanted someone to need her. As the series progressed you could see that more and more. When Tara came into the picture, Willow so desperately wanted to match Tara's power, since she thought she wasn't quite up to Tara's level. I think at the beginning of their relationship she relied on Tara for everything, to help her through anything until Willow surpassed her, then Willow did whatever she wanted. I think at some points it was healthy, but it was maybe a little more unhealthy for them. I do love Willow and Tara though.

[midwesternwatcher]

Sept 15, 2010 8:36:46 GMT -5 jtmaster13 said:

Not sure if this goes along with anything everyone else has said, but Willow always wanted to be needed in some way. You could see it in the second season, she wanted to help out in any way, she wanted to be needed. She wanted Buffy to need her help. In the fourth season, "Fear Itself" where she threw in that comment, "I'm not your sidekick," Willow wanted someone to need her. As the series progressed you could see that more and more. When Tara came into the picture, Willow so desperately wanted to match Tara's power, since she thought she wasn't quite up to Tara's level. I think at the beginning of their relationship she relied on Tara for everything, to help her through anything until Willow surpassed her, then Willow did whatever she wanted. I think at some points it was healthy, but it was maybe a little more unhealthy for them. I do love Willow and Tara though.

Excellent! That's just what I feel, but you put it better than I ever have.

Let me see if I can enlarge on it though. Please let me know if this rings true.

Willow needs the acceptance and approval of others to an unusual, maybe unnatural degree. When she meets any new person, she immediately feels she's at a disadvantage (I need this person's approval more than s/he needs mine). Getting the other person to need her is her self-defense.

Oz liked her, admired her, loved her, but did she feel it? Part of his "cool" is that he doesn't seem to need anybody, you feel he could be happy all by himself in the woods for a year, never be lonely.

He did come to need her near the end. We surely feel that in season 4. But I suspect Willow never dared to quite believe it. Some voice in her must've been saying, "he doesn't need me like I need him, no one is as needy as I am."

Now, here comes plain, stuttering, self-effacing, vulnerable, where-can-I-hide-myself Tara, who nevertheless (and I've never seen this in real life, I'm not sure it's possible) cares about other people's feelings more than her own. This was the perfect answer to Willow's impossible dream: a person who needs her enough, and can support her enough.

Of course this is beautiful.

But am I the only one who feels uneasy about all this neediness and mutual caretaking? Each one seems to be a nurse in the other's hospital. Don't they each have a vested interest in remaining weak and vulnerable? How much can they change, while keeping the relationship?

In "Tough Love," it appears that Tara is afraid of Willow (Freudian slip, remember). The power balance has been upset in Willow's favor, and Tara can't quite trust her under those conditions. Or do I misread it?

I've said enough.

[jtmaster13]

Sept 15, 2010 9:33:30 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

Sept 15, 2010 8:36:46 GMT -5 jtmaster13 said:

Not sure if this goes along with anything everyone else has said, but Willow always wanted to be needed in some way. You could see it in the second season, she wanted to help out in any way, she wanted to be needed. She wanted Buffy to need her help. In the fourth season, "Fear Itself" where she threw in that comment, "I'm not your sidekick," Willow wanted someone to need her. As the series progressed you could see that more and more. When Tara came into the picture, Willow so desperately wanted to match Tara's power, since she thought she wasn't quite up to Tara's level. I think at the beginning of their relationship she relied on Tara for everything, to help her through anything until Willow surpassed her, then Willow did whatever she wanted. I think at some points it was healthy, but it was maybe a little more unhealthy for them. I do love Willow and Tara though.

Excellent! That's just what I feel, but you put it better than I ever have.

Let me see if I can enlarge on it though. Please let me know if this rings true.

Willow needs the acceptance and approval of others to an unusual, maybe unnatural degree. When she meets any new person, she immediately feels she's at a disadvantage (I need this person's approval more than s/he needs mine). Getting the other person to need her is her self-defense.

Oz liked her, admired her, loved her, but did she feel it? Part of his "cool" is that he doesn't seem to need anybody, you feel he could be happy all by himself in the woods for a year, never be lonely.

He did come to need her near the end. We surely feel that in season 4. But I suspect Willow never dared to quite believe it. Some voice in her must've been saying, "he doesn't need me like I need him, no one is as needy as I am."

Now, here comes plain, stuttering, self-effacing, vulnerable, where-can-I-hide-myself Tara, who nevertheless (and I've never seen this in real life, I'm not sure it's possible) cares about other people's feelings more than her own. This was the perfect answer to Willow's impossible dream: a person who needs her enough, and can support her enough.

Of course this is beautiful.

But am I the only one who feels uneasy about all this neediness and mutual caretaking? Each one seems to be a nurse in the other's hospital. Don't they each have a vested interest in remaining weak and vulnerable? How much can they change, while keeping the relationship?

In "Tough Love," it appears that Tara is afraid of Willow (Freudian slip, remember). The power balance has been upset in Willow's favor, and Tara can't quite trust her under those conditions. Or do I misread it?

I've said enough.

The last part you said was completely true! In the episode "Tough Love" you begin to see Tara's uneasiness with Willow's growing magic capabilities and you see them fight for the first time. Willow and Tara's relationship changes so much in the time that they are together. You can tell in the beginning of their relationship that Willow finally has someone who accepts her and what she does. I get the feeling like she thought Buffy, Xander or Giles never accepted her magical abilities and then comes in Tara. Willow probably felt that Tara would support her no matter what since she always did in the beginning. But you see at the end of the fifth and beginning of the sixth that Tara is maturing as a person, and not just magically, but emotionally as well. Willow on the other hand, in my opinion from what I have seen anyway seems to want to stay how she is, she doesn't want to grow up. If that makes any sense at all.